Lying

[jasonc]

I don't need to know him at all to know he is is just having some fun in this thread (and there's nothing wrong with that). Here's what is in his post #113

On what grounds do you say my comments are a "personal attack"? Just pointed out the obvious. He already showed his hand and almost everyone ignored these signs.

As to the questions Stovebolts is asking, the answers are already in the Bible. Lying is lying, and truth is truth. Murder is murder, and taking a life is taking a life. I already explained something about taking a life above. We don't need endless discussion about such basics.

he clearly states and believes that not in all cases its a sin to lie. you are pro isreal what does the massad motto say? victory through deception. war is very much deception. so its a sin to use deception in war. deceiving is a form of lying. if by deception i save one its not a sin. he is serious.

 

[jeff77]

Please remember the ToS, not necessarily directed at the last poster.

1) Give other members the respect you would have them give to yourself. (ToS 2.4)
Address issues/ideas, not persons or personalities. Do not insult, publicly post derogatory opinions of others, post insinuation to belittle or discredit, or otherwise create a hostile environment. Present evidence for support or rebuttal during debate. Bashing the author of another view or opinion is not evidence.

 

[Malachi]

so its a SIN in all cases? i guess when im asked by the enemy what i do for the army, i should just tell them. avoiding an answer is also a lie, a half truth is a lie.

Jason,

Sin is sin, lying is lying, deception is deception, murder is murder. It does not matter what justifications men may offer for these actions. Their intrinsic nature remains the same.

Let's say you are serving in the army and you know that in order to defeat an enemy the army brass uses deception. It is still deception. So if you are not comfortable with that, you can resign and leave. If you are convinced that armies have the right to use whatever means they choose to win, then you can remain and serve. But the nature of the act does not change.

And that's what was already covered above. Self-defense in not murder, and warfare is not murder. Manslaughter (say a car accident) is not murder. Therefore to go round and round with this is simply counterproductive.

 

[Edward]

God can not sin, so anything that the Lord does is not sin, even killing people. I would think that if the Lord commanded one to go kill these people...(like He did the Israelites), that it wouldn't be sin.

Killing someone of our own volition would probably be sin, but I think there are exceptions in scripture, like if a man is breaking into your house during the night season...So just like on earth, I think that with God and killing, the circumstances that it's done under would be the deciding factor to if it was counted as sin or murder.

 

[jasonc]

Jason,

Sin is sin, lying is lying, deception is deception, murder is murder. It does not matter what justifications men may offer for these actions. Their intrinsic nature remains the same.

Let's say you are serving in the army and you know that in order to defeat an enemy the army brass uses deception. It is still deception. So if you are not comfortable with that, you can resign and leave. If you are convinced that armies have the right to use whatever means they choose to win, then you can remain and serve. But the nature of the act does not change.

And that's what was already covered above. Self-defense in not murder, and warfare is not murder. Manslaughter (say a car accident) is not murder. Therefore to go round and round with this is simply counterproductive.

uhm, so using pysops is a sin? so using faints and attacks which is a form of deception is a sin?

de·cep·tion
noun \di-ˈsep-shən\ .}
: the act of making someone believe something that is not true : the act of deceiving someone
: an act or statement intended to make people believe something that is not true

so when we are going to bomb the isis, we should just let the media know and broadcast it? like the media hasn't been poking into what we do and trying to get stuff that is sensitive. the uk allowed the a city of her to bombed so that the germans wouldn't know that they had their code cracked and we won Normandy that way. that is deception!

 

[Malachi]

uhm, so using pysops is a sin? so using faints and attacks which is a form of deception is a sin?

Jason,

That's not exactly what is being suggested. Warfare is warfare, but warfare is NOT murder because the motives are quite different. If an army must use deception to win, then that is a tool in its arsenal. But deception remains deception. All armies are free to use whatever they have at their disposal to win their wars. We are not sitting in judgment over armies and how they operate. We must simply recognize that words have specific meanings which don't change just because someone is trying to justify something.

 

[jasonc]

Jason,

That's not exactly what is being suggested. Warfare is warfare, but warfare is NOT murder because the motives are quite different. If an army must use deception to win, then that is a tool in its arsenal. But deception remains deception. All armies are free to use whatever they have at their disposal to win their wars. We are not sitting in judgment over armies and how they operate. We must simply recognize that words have specific meanings which don't change just because someone is trying to justify something.

uhm, if its a sin to lie then its a sin to lie. there is unneeded cases of lying that has nothing to do with war and training to win them in the government. the fact that its deception as you have said didn't change only in the case of where its used. I learned that the army does lie to people. the army not FOX news, or any new source, blog has taught me not to trust the government at times. the chain will lie to you at times.

in that context its a sin. when Tillman died there was coverup, the day it happened it was known that he was killed via fratricide. the fact that Jessica lynn was never a hero but a coward and the whole story of her is a lie. she wrote a book an the brass went along with that. I when I heard where she was being treated at was thinking something is not right, and it wasn't. the heroes of that day where were the black female soldier who died in combat, and her other soldier in her unit while lynn cowered in fear.

which is a sin? the deception used to win battles or this Jessica lynn story?

 

[Malachi]

uhm, if its a sin to lie then its a sin to lie. there is unneeded cases of lying that has nothing to do with war and training to win them in the government. the fact that its deception as you have said didn't change only in the case of where its used. I learned that the army does lie to people. the army not FOX news, or any new source, blog has taught me not to trust the government at times. the chain will lie to you at times.... which is a sin? the deception used to win battles or this Jessica lynn story?

Lying is a sin, and deception is a sin. People can use whatever justifications they wish, but the facts remain the facts. God will judge nations as well as individuals, and since armies belong to nations, the judgment will be on the nations. However if the army asks you to lie personally, then you will give account for that personally.

 

[stovebolts]

Malachi ,
I seem to have struck a wrong cord with you. Yes, I was having fun... but it was not folly. Learning should be fun and so should our fellowship.

You've dug your heels in the sand and have not the eyes to see or the skin to feel, and you've done this with your own will. Please, do not take what I said as putting you down, or belittling you. My motive and my desire is that your mind would be opened to at least try and understand before casting judgment.

The Bible I read says God desires mercy, not sacrifice which means out of the 614 laws Israel agreed to live under, they would have to break a few laws to keep a few laws. This is how truth can be found. Let me see if I can try and explain.

Do you remember when Satan was tempting Jesus in the dessert? Satan quoted scripture, and we know scripture is truth. But what did Jesus do? Jesus did not nullify the scripture Satan quoted but rather, he discerned the scriptures and rightly quoted a response from scripture. Both scriptures were truth, but right discernment brought about the truth for the situation.

An example of when David ate the sacred and holy shewbread from the tabernacle. It was unlawful for him and his men to eat it, yet mercy trumped and he and his men ate, and it was not sinful for them to do so, even though the law concisely stated that ONLY the priest could eat of that bread.

Why was David and his men not considered sinners for that act? Because mercy trumps rigid laws and we serve a merciful God. Need I continue?

And back to the beginning we go...

Let me define what sin is one more time and then please, I'd ask you to ponder this concept for a moment...

Sin is the failure to do the good you could have done. Example according to Ephesians (chapter 3 or 4 I believe):
The sin isn't in lying, the sin is failing to tell the truth.
The sin isn't in stealing, the sin is in failing to give to others in need.

Here is your scenario.

Your in an ISIS controlled territory and your harboring a family of Christians. ISIS comes to your door and asks you if you've seen any Christians.

What do you say?

If you say "Yes, they are in the back room" because you are afraid of "sinning" by telling a lie. Then who's righteousness are you protecting? Is not a life more valuable than your own self righteousness? Remember, Mercy always trumps.

And if you do lie and say, "NO", do you deserve to carry the guilt of such a sin which saved a life?

Now then, please do not accuse me of promoting people to justify lies. That is not my intent because I am talking about discernment. You don't tell a lie to cover up something you did that you knew was wrong to begin with...

 

[stovebolts]

God can not sin, so anything that the Lord does is not sin, even killing people. I would think that if the Lord commanded one to go kill these people...(like He did the Israelites), that it wouldn't be sin.

Killing someone of our own volition would probably be sin, but I think there are exceptions in scripture, like if a man is breaking into your house during the night season...So just like on earth, I think that with God and killing, the circumstances that it's done under would be the deciding factor to if it was counted as sin or murder.

You make some good points Edward.

Funny, if you look at that passage about killing a man who enters your house at night, you are within the Law to kill that man and not be guilty of sin. However, if a man breaks into your house during the day and you kill him, you are guilty of sin.

Why do you think that is? I mean, why do you think there is an exception at night to kill the man who's breaking into your house but if you kill him during the day your going to get in trouble?

According to the sages, a man who breaks into your home during the day expects the home to be empty. So his intent is simply to rob. However, the man who breaks into the house during the night, has come to kill the occupants before robbing them.

This is why it is lawful to kill the man who breaks into your house at night, but it is not lawful to kill the man who breaks into your house during the day.

 

[jasonc]

You make some good points Edward.

Funny, if you look at that passage about killing a man who enters your house at night, you are within the Law to kill that man and not be guilty of sin. However, if a man breaks into your house during the day and you kill him, you are guilty of sin.

Why do you think that is? I mean, why do you think there is an exception at night to kill the man who's breaking into your house but if you kill him during the day your going to get in trouble?

According to the sages, a man who breaks into your home during the day expects the home to be empty. So his intent is simply to rob. However, the man who breaks into the house during the night, has come to kill the occupants before robbing them.

This is why it is lawful to kill the man who breaks into your house at night, but it is not lawful to kill the man who breaks into your house during the day.

reading ramban on shemot once again.

 

[Edward]

You make some good points Edward.

Funny, if you look at that passage about killing a man who enters your house at night, you are within the Law to kill that man and not be guilty of sin. However, if a man breaks into your house during the day and you kill him, you are guilty of sin.

Why do you think that is? I mean, why do you think there is an exception at night to kill the man who's breaking into your house but if you kill him during the day your going to get in trouble?

According to the sages, a man who breaks into your home during the day expects the home to be empty. So his intent is simply to rob. However, the man who breaks into the house during the night, has come to kill the occupants before robbing them.

This is why it is lawful to kill the man who breaks into your house at night, but it is not lawful to kill the man who breaks into your house during the day.

I didn't know that! Learn sumpin' new evvy day. It makes perfect sense. So one can't just shoot the guy who's breaking in your house in the daytime, you have to challenge them first and give them a chance to run.

That's the right thing to do anyway though. because in all likelihood the suspect is an impetuous young stupid kid who hasn't learned yet. He's merely lost his way (and belongs to God). Each persons soul is the most valuable thing on earth.

But if the operate in the night season, then go ahead and shoot them they say. All of them, even God. So then the level of evil intent facing you can be expected to be high risk...those who walk in darkness. I wonder if more evil comes over those people at night rather than daytime? A spiritual factor?

We wrestle not against flesh and blood. Shoot the host, the demon leaves and laughs? That guy's lost too. maybe he could've been saved?

Nah, go ahead and shoot him, the moons up. Even God says, yeah, those guys.

 

[Edward]

 

[stovebolts]

Edward
There are worse things than dying. I've lost two daughters and a brother to the grave so please, be mindful.

Both Adam and Eve sinned when they disobeyed God. The result was death by way of separation from that which held eternal life. Ejected from the garden in a broken world where toil brought forth briers and joy turned into sorrow.

Was God punishing them for their sin? Or was death the ultimate form of mercy? You see, evil will not live forever... it will come to an end and death shows us that evil will not reign for eternity because death itself will be cast into the fire.

If you see an animal suffering and you know it's in pain and dying, would you put it out of it's misery? For some, their human condition can get into such a miserable state... but its worse when they enjoy the misery. Have you ever felt good when something bad happened to one of your enemies? Some people thrive in misery and create misery for their own twisted satisfaction. Its the world we live in, and it's broken.

Break into my house in the middle of the night and I'm not going to ask you if you know Jesus... cause that kind of evil is gonna come to an abrupt end with a a bright flash that's gonna go boom in the nite.

Somebody once told me that if a ravaging wolf is about to attack you, you don't ask about it's puppyhood. I thought that was some pretty good advice don't you think?

 

[jeff77]

I agree that in the situation of having to lie about having a Jew or Christian in our home if ISIS came knocking on our door, I would have to lie. The Lord tells us to welcome people into our home...so think about it. You wouldn't let some Christians or Jews into your home (especially to keep them safe) and then turn them in only for them to be murdered. That would be the same as helping ISIS.

 

[Jesse]

Malachi ,
I seem to have struck a wrong cord with you. Yes, I was having fun... but it was not folly. Learning should be fun and so should our fellowship.

You've dug your heels in the sand and have not the eyes to see or the skin to feel, and you've done this with your own will. Please, do not take what I said as putting you down, or belittling you. My motive and my desire is that your mind would be opened to at least try and understand before casting judgment.

The Bible I read says God desires mercy, not sacrifice which means out of the 614 laws Israel agreed to live under, they would have to break a few laws to keep a few laws. This is how truth can be found. Let me see if I can try and explain.

Do you remember when Satan was tempting Jesus in the dessert? Satan quoted scripture, and we know scripture is truth. But what did Jesus do? Jesus did not nullify the scripture Satan quoted but rather, he discerned the scriptures and rightly quoted a response from scripture. Both scriptures were truth, but right discernment brought about the truth for the situation.

An example of when David ate the sacred and holy shewbread from the tabernacle. It was unlawful for him and his men to eat it, yet mercy trumped and he and his men ate, and it was not sinful for them to do so, even though the law concisely stated that ONLY the priest could eat of that bread.

Why was David and his men not considered sinners for that act? Because mercy trumps rigid laws and we serve a merciful God. Need I continue?

And back to the beginning we go...

Let me define what sin is one more time and then please, I'd ask you to ponder this concept for a moment...

Sin is the failure to do the good you could have done. Example according to Ephesians (chapter 3 or 4 I believe):
The sin isn't in lying, the sin is failing to tell the truth.
The sin isn't in stealing, the sin is in failing to give to others in need.

Here is your scenario.

Your in an ISIS controlled territory and your harboring a family of Christians. ISIS comes to your door and asks you if you've seen any Christians.

What do you say?

If you say "Yes, they are in the back room" because you are afraid of "sinning" by telling a lie. Then who's righteousness are you protecting? Is not a life more valuable than your own self righteousness? Remember, Mercy always trumps.

And if you do lie and say, "NO", do you deserve to carry the guilt of such a sin which saved a life?

Now then, please do not accuse me of promoting people to justify lies. That is not my intent because I am talking about discernment. You don't tell a lie to cover up something you did that you knew was wrong to begin with...

Stovebolts (you're either into woodstoves or old chevys lol)

Never ever have I considered your point about who's <self> righteousness would we be protecting, not limited to lying either, but all the reasons we do what we do as believers, are we practicing mercy or <self> righteousness. This opens up a new realm for me as far as questioning my motives behind certain actions.

It would be more of a burden to carry, if we told the truth to ISIS and people were killed. We would be just as responsible for their deaths as ISIS. It would be the sin of failing to do what was right (protecting those in our care).

 

[jasonc]

Stovebolts (you're either into woodstoves or old chevys lol)

Never ever have I considered your point about who's <self> righteousness would we be protecting, not limited to lying either, but all the reasons we do what we do as believers, are we practicing mercy or <self> righteousness. This opens up a new realm for me as far as questioning my motives behind certain actions.

It would be more of a burden to carry, if we told the truth to ISIS and people were killed. We would be just as responsible for their deaths as ISIS. It would be the sin of failing to do what was right (protecting those in our care).

both, you pegged him on the cheyy for sure and his nickname he will have to explain.

 

[Jesse]

both, you pegged him on the cheyy for sure and his nickname he will have to explain.

Ha

I was hoping it was more on the side of chevy, now am curious to know if he is also a mechanic or just likes working on old cars.

 

[jasonc]

Ha

I was hoping it was more on the side of chevy, now am curious to know if he is also a mechanic or just likes working on old cars.

I know the answer but I will let him tell.

 

[Edward]

Edward
There are worse things than dying. I've lost two daughters and a brother to the grave so please, be mindful.

Both Adam and Eve sinned when they disobeyed God. The result was death by way of separation from that which held eternal life. Ejected from the garden in a broken world where toil brought forth briers and joy turned into sorrow.

Was God punishing them for their sin? Or was death the ultimate form of mercy? You see, evil will not live forever... it will come to an end and death shows us that evil will not reign for eternity because death itself will be cast into the fire.

If you see an animal suffering and you know it's in pain and dying, would you put it out of it's misery? For some, their human condition can get into such a miserable state... but its worse when they enjoy the misery. Have you ever felt good when something bad happened to one of your enemies? Some people thrive in misery and create misery for their own twisted satisfaction. Its the world we live in, and it's broken.

Break into my house in the middle of the night and I'm not going to ask you if you know Jesus... cause that kind of evil is gonna come to an abrupt end with a a bright flash that's gonna go boom in the nite.

Somebody once told me that if a ravaging wolf is about to attack you, you don't ask about it's puppyhood. I thought that was some pretty good advice don't you think?

Oh yeah, that's awesome advice. You can't psycho analyze someone during an attack, lol. I dunno, I never want to have to kill anyone, but if someone forces me too, then that'd be that. I especially wouldn't want to in the daytime, but if one or more of my charges are here, then I probably couldn't take the chance and would have to.