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Man Conceived Religions

Robert Pate said:
There are multitudes of religious people that reject salvation by grace through faith that think that they are following God. Do you think that they are saved?
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Of course they're saved.
Since when does DOCTRINE save anyone?
IF a religious person loves God, perhaps knows about Jesus and loves Him, and they follow their religion, whatever it might be, why would they not be saved?

Jesus said:
John 5:28-29
. 28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Jesus taught us the BEHAVIOR God expects from us.
He said HE is the way, the truth and the Life.

Jesus is the WAY: What He taught is how we serve God. The beatitudes.
Jesus is the Truth: He taught that we need to escape from the grip of satan.
Jesus is the Life: When we follow as His disciples, we will have eternal life.
 
jaybo said:
No, they are not. Take Jews for example. They believe that they are "following God", but they have rejected His Son.
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If Jesus is rejected, it's another story.
Let's not get our wires crossed....
This is not what I'm saying.
 
wondering said:
Of course they're saved.
Since when does DOCTRINE save anyone?
IF a religious person loves God, perhaps knows about Jesus and loves Him, and they follow their religion, whatever it might be, why would they not be saved?

Jesus said:
John 5:28-29
. 28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Jesus taught us the BEHAVIOR God expects from us.
He said HE is the way, the truth and the Life.

Jesus is the WAY: What He taught is how we serve God. The beatitudes.
Jesus is the Truth: He taught that we need to escape from the grip of satan.
Jesus is the Life: When we follow as His disciples, we will have eternal life.
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Jesus said, "Few there be that find it" Matthew 7:14.

What most have found is religion. Religion is NOT an indication of faith; religion is an indication of the absence of faith.

The Pharisees were very religious. They were not really trusting in God and they thought that Jesus was a fraud. The Pharisees like many other religious people were trusting in themselves. They were trying to save themselves by being religious. Multitudes are doing the same thing.
 
Robert Pate said:
Jesus said, "Few there be that find it" Matthew 7:14.

What most have found is religion. Religion is NOT an indication of faith; religion is an indication of the absence of faith.

The Pharisees were very religious. They were not really trusting in God and they thought that Jesus was a fraud. The Pharisees like many other religious people were trusting in themselves. They were trying to save themselves by being religious. Multitudes are doing the same thing.
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Nicodemus was a Pharisee.
 
Robert Pate said:
Just because Nick participated in the burial of Jesus does not mean that he was a Christian. Where does it say Nick had faith in Jesus?
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Where does it say that he didn't have faith in Jesus?

James 2:17-18, "So also faith, if it does not have works, is dead being by itself. But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith without works and I will show you faith by my works." Nicodemus (not "Nick"!) clearly showed his faith by his actions. He took Jesus' placed it in the tomb.

John 19:39-42: Nicodemus, the man who had previously come to Jesus at night, accompanied Joseph, carrying a mixture of myrrh and aloes weighing about seventy-five pounds. Then they took Jesus’ body and wrapped it, with the aromatic spices, in strips of linen cloth according to Jewish burial customs. Now at the place where Jesus was crucified there was a garden, and in the garden was a new tomb where no one had yet been buried. And so, because it was the Jewish day of preparation and the tomb was nearby, they placed Jesus’ body there."

Nicodemus clearly showed his regard for Jesus by participating in His burial. He demonstrated his faith by his "works".
 
jaybo said:
Where does it say that he didn't have faith in Jesus?

James 2:17-18, "So also faith, if it does not have works, is dead being by itself. But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith without works and I will show you faith by my works." Nicodemus (not "Nick"!) clearly showed his faith by his actions. He took Jesus' placed it in the tomb.

John 19:39-42: Nicodemus, the man who had previously come to Jesus at night, accompanied Joseph, carrying a mixture of myrrh and aloes weighing about seventy-five pounds. Then they took Jesus’ body and wrapped it, with the aromatic spices, in strips of linen cloth according to Jewish burial customs. Now at the place where Jesus was crucified there was a garden, and in the garden was a new tomb where no one had yet been buried. And so, because it was the Jewish day of preparation and the tomb was nearby, they placed Jesus’ body there."

Nicodemus clearly showed his regard for Jesus by participating in His burial. He demonstrated his faith by his "works".
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James was a Judaizer. A Judaizer is one that believes in Jesus, but also believes that you must keep the Mosiac law. The book of James was not directed to Gentile Christians, it was directed to law keeping Jews, James 1:1.

We cannot go by what the Bible doesn't say. We can only go by what the Bible does say. The Bible does not say that Nicodemus was a believer. There are multitudes of people that are doing good works, many of them are cults.
 
Robert Pate said:
James was a Judaizer. A Judaizer is one that believes in Jesus, but also believes that you must keep the Mosiac law. The book of James was not directed to Gentile Christians, it was directed to law keeping Jews, James 1:1.

We cannot go by what the Bible doesn't say. We can only go by what the Bible does say. The Bible does not say that Nicodemus was a believer. There are multitudes of people that are doing good works, many of them are cults.
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The entire Bible, especially the New Testament, including the "book" of James, was written for all people, especially the believers. In fact, none of the "books" were written specifically to modern Christians, who didn't exist at that time. For example, since I don't live in Rome, should I disregard Romans?

No believers, including his closest disciples, took care of his body, first anointing, then burying Him. Only Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus did that. Since Joseph of Arimathea was a disciple of Jesus, it is reasonable to assume that Nicodemus was also (although this is unstated).
 
jaybo said:
The entire Bible, especially the New Testament, including the "book" of James, was written for all people, especially the believers. In fact, none of the "books" were written specifically to modern Christians, who didn't exist at that time. For example, since I don't live in Rome, should I disregard Romans?

No believers, including his closest disciples, took care of his body, first anointing, then burying Him. Only Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus did that. Since Joseph of Arimathea was a disciple of Jesus, it is reasonable to assume that Nicodemus was also (although this is unstated).
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The book of James was one of the first New Testament books. There were many Judaizers in the early church that did not understand the Gospel and justification by faith. Paul was continually trying to educate them. I am sure that James came into a full understanding of the Gospel and justification by faith at a later date. There is a good possibility that Nicodemus was a believer, but the Bible does not say so.
 
Die7qa
Robert Pate said:
Just because Nick participated in the burial of Jesus does not mean that he was a Christian. Where does it say Nick had faith in Jesus?
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You don't think Nicodemus was a saved person?

Am I happy you're not the judge.

What would be the possible reason?
 
Robert Pate said:
James was a Judaizer. A Judaizer is one that believes in Jesus, but also believes that you must keep the Mosiac law. The book of James was not directed to Gentile Christians, it was directed to law keeping Jews, James 1:1.

We cannot go by what the Bible doesn't say. We can only go by what the Bible does say. The Bible does not say that Nicodemus was a believer. There are multitudes of people that are doing good works, many of them are cults.
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I agree that we shouldn't make the Bible say more than it does (nor should we make it say less). One thing it doesn't say is that James was a Judaizer.

Also, the fact that Nicodemus brought about 75 pounds of "a mixture of myrrh and aloes," is a show of reverence or respect, suggesting he was a disciple (cf. 2Cor 16:14). Apparently that would have a been a very costly amount, which would be strange for a non-believer. Consider also the context of Joseph of Arimathea:

Joh 19:38 After these things Joseph of Arimathea, who was a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, asked Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus, and Pilate gave him permission. So he came and took away his body.
Joh 19:39 Nicodemus also, who earlier had come to Jesus by night, came bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about seventy-five pounds in weight.
Joh 19:40 So they took the body of Jesus and bound it in linen cloths with the spices, as is the burial custom of the Jews. (ESV)

There is a connection being made between Joseph secretly being a disciple and Nicodemus, "who earlier had come to Jesus by night," that is, in secret. Both of these men took Jesus's body and gave it a respectful burial. While not conclusive, both the bringing of a large quantity of an expensive mixture and the parallel with Joseph suggest that Nicodemus was a believer.
 
Robert Pate said:
The book of James was one of the first New Testament books. There were many Judaizers in the early church that did not understand the Gospel and justification by faith. Paul was continually trying to educate them. I am sure that James came into a full understanding of the Gospel and justification by faith at a later date. There is a good possibility that Nicodemus was a believer, but the Bible does not say so.
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You're making up your own bible story!
The NT was not compiled until the 300s.
James is in there for a reason.

You take faith only saves
To mean
Faith alone saves.

This is not NT teaching.
Faith alone is not what Jesus taught or any of the writers.

Our faith does not stand alone.
It must show some kind of fruit.
See John 15.
 
wondering said:
You're making up your own bible story!
The NT was not compiled until the 300s.
James is in there for a reason.

You take faith only saves
To mean
Faith alone saves.

This is not NT teaching.
Faith alone is not what Jesus taught or any of the writers.

Our faith does not stand alone.
It must show some kind of fruit.
See John 15.
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Nope, it is faith alone, because it is by Christ alone.

You are mixing justification with sanctification. They don't mix.

JUSTIFICATION: God's work for us by Jesus Christ. The Gospel.
SANCTIFICATION: God's work in us by the Holy Spirit.

What you do or what you become has nothing to do with your salvation as long as you believe in Christ as your savior.
 
Free said:
I agree that we shouldn't make the Bible say more than it does (nor should we make it say less). One thing it doesn't say is that James was a Judaizer.

Also, the fact that Nicodemus brought about 75 pounds of "a mixture of myrrh and aloes," is a show of reverence or respect, suggesting he was a disciple (cf. 2Cor 16:14). Apparently that would have a been a very costly amount, which would be strange for a non-believer. Consider also the context of Joseph of Arimathea:

Joh 19:38 After these things Joseph of Arimathea, who was a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, asked Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus, and Pilate gave him permission. So he came and took away his body.
Joh 19:39 Nicodemus also, who earlier had come to Jesus by night, came bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about seventy-five pounds in weight.
Joh 19:40 So they took the body of Jesus and bound it in linen cloths with the spices, as is the burial custom of the Jews. (ESV)

There is a connection being made between Joseph secretly being a disciple and Nicodemus, "who earlier had come to Jesus by night," that is, in secret. Both of these men took Jesus's body and gave it a respectful burial. While not conclusive, both the bringing of a large quantity of an expensive mixture and the parallel with Joseph suggest that Nicodemus was a believer.
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James wanted to circumcise Gentile believers. Read about it, Acts 15:1-21.
 
Robert Pate said:
Nope, it is faith alone, because it is by Christ alone.

You are mixing justification with sanctification. They don't mix.

JUSTIFICATION: God's work for us by Jesus Christ. The Gospel.
SANCTIFICATION: God's work in us by the Holy Spirit.

What you do or what you become has nothing to do with your salvation as long as you believe in Christ as your savior.
Click to expand...
Where did Jesus say this?
After all, it's Him you're depending on and this is not what He taught.

But to be cont'd.
Can't type on this thing....
 
Robert Pate said:
James wanted to circumcise Gentile believers. Read about it, Acts 15:1-21.
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There is nothing in there that says "James wanted to circumcise Gentile believers." He is the one that makes the decision not to, in verses 19-21.
 
Free said:
There is nothing in there that says "James wanted to circumcise Gentile believers." He is the one that makes the decision not to, in verses 19-21.
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James was the head of the church in Jerusalem. After Paul and Barnabus corrected them James and others changed their minds. James did not completely let it go because he said, Acts 15:20-21.
 
Robert Pate said:
James was the head of the church in Jerusalem. After Paul and Barnabus corrected them James and others changed their minds. James did not completely let it go because he said, Acts 15:20-21.
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So, you are making the Bible say more than it does. Nowhere is it mentioned that James wanted to circumcise Gentile believers or that he was a Judaizer. He gave a few simple commands for Gentile believers to follow, nothing more.
 
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