Man Conceived Religions

[Free]

Solely trying to "live by the internal guidance of the Holy Spirit" doesn't work -- for you, perhaps, but it does for others, myself included.

No, it doesn't. EDITED BY STAFF. PERSONAL.

Jesus didn't say that the Holy Spirit will lead us into some truth.

I've dealt with that verse.

For those who truly follow the Spirit, there is no need for external rules and commands.

Again, the false dilemma. It's not either/or, it's both/and.

Does any Christian need to be told not to kill another person, steal, covet their possessions, etc? If you are guided by the Spirit, or more properly filled with the Spirit, you know how to behave.

Well, as per my example, there are some who claim to be Christian and believe that intentionally ending the life of the unborn is okay. In that case, such Christians most certainly do need to be told not to kill another human being. Apart from that, many, if not most, Christians are very selfish, very worldly, to the point that they don't even realize it. So, once again, they need to be told what to believe and what to do about it.

External rules and commands should not have an effect on one's behavior.

Yes, they should; that is the whole point. If they don't, they're pointless.

Why are you going off on this strange tangent? "The fact that many Christians, or at least those who claim to be Christian, reject Christian doctrine and conform to worldly thinking, such as that we are to be self-governing or that abortion is okay". Many Christians reject Christian doctrine? If they do so, they're not Christians, obviously.

EDITED BY STAFF. REPLY TO PERSONAL ATTACK. I'm clearly just using examples to support my point. Christians can be wrong about certain things and still be Christian. Besides, every Christian is wrong about any number of things. Core Christian doctrine is another matter.

a) We are to be governed by the Holy Spirit and respect those God has placed in authority (Romans 13).

Another rule and command for believers in an attempt to prove there are no rules or commands for believers. See how impossible it is to get away from them?

b) Your condemning those who claim abortion is okay means that you clearly don't understand the issue.

I fully understand the issue. Being against abortion is the Christian position on that issue. By your own words, if Christians "reject Christian doctrine . . . they're not Christians, obviously."

Anyway, it was only an example and I'm not going to debate abortion in this thread.

And it is a non sequitur.

No, it is not.

"To live by the internal guidance of the Holy Spirit" always works. That is why God sent us the Holy Spirit! Did God make a mistake in your opinion? Claiming that it is subjective and that one's own feelings and thoughts are most often what lead, not the Holy Spirit, means that you clearly don't understand it.

Once again, you have misunderstood my argument. I've said this many times on these forums and I'll say it again: there have been numerous users here over the years that reject "man's teachings"--commentaries, etc.--and said that all they need is the Holy Spirit. Yet, they all disagreed with each other on their understanding of what the Bible says about certain things. What can we conclude from that? That their own thoughts and feelings were leading them, not the Holy Spirit. Maybe the Holy Spirit led one of them to the truth of a matter, but not the others. But then how is one to know, if they all claim the Holy Spirit led them?

I feel sorry for you! You are dependent on external rules and regulations, even though Jesus died to free us from that kind of external control. It bothers me greatly that you don't understand that! You clearly have a heart for God, so what is preventing you from trusting Him in everything that you do?

Don't let it bother you. I just fully agree with what the Bible says and follow accordingly, that's all. The NT has abundant rules and commands for believers to follow, so I follow them, with the help and guidance of the Holy Spirit. It's both/and, not either/or.

 

[Free]

Galatians 5:16-26, "Live by the Spirit, I say, and do not gratify the desires of the flesh. For what the flesh desires is opposed to the Spirit, and what the Spirit desires is opposed to the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to prevent you from doing what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not subject to the law. Now the works of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, debauchery, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, anger, quarrels, dissensions, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these. I am warning you, as I warned you before: those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

By contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against such things. And those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also be guided by the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, competing against one another, envying one another."​

This shouldn't be so hard to understand if you are led by the Spirit.

Again, false equivocation. And, again, appealing to rules to try and show that there are no rules for believers:

Gal 5:16 Live by the Spirit, I say, and do not gratify the desires of the flesh.

Gal 5:25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also be guided by the Spirit.
Gal 5:26 Let us not become conceited, competing against one another, envying one another.

 

[jaybo]

No, it doesn't. You're in error on things and so are all the others.


I've dealt with that verse.


Again, the false dilemma. It's not either/or, it's both/and.


Well, as per my example, there are some who claim to be Christian and believe that intentionally ending the life of the unborn is okay. In that case, such Christians most certainly do need to be told not to kill another human being. Apart from that, many, if not most, Christians are very selfish, very worldly, to the point that they don't even realize it. So, once again, they need to be told what to believe and what to do about it.


Yes, they should; that is the whole point. If they don't, they're pointless.


I'm not going off on a tangent, I'm clearly just using examples to support my point. Christians can be wrong about certain things and still be Christian. Besides, every Christian is wrong about any number of things. Core Christian doctrine is another matter.


Another rule and command for believers in an attempt to prove there are no rules or commands for believers. See how impossible it is to get away from them?


I fully understand the issue. Being against abortion is the Christian position on that issue. By your own words, if Christians "reject Christian doctrine . . . they're not Christians, obviously."

Anyway, it was only an example and I'm not going to debate abortion in this thread.


No, it is not.


Once again, you have misunderstood my argument. I've said this many times on these forums and I'll say it again: there have been numerous users here over the years that reject "man's teachings"--commentaries, etc.--and said that all they need is the Holy Spirit. Yet, they all disagreed with each other on their understanding of what the Bible says about certain things. What can we conclude from that? That their own thoughts and feelings were leading them, not the Holy Spirit. Maybe the Holy Spirit led one of them to the truth of a matter, but not the others. But then how is one to know, if they all claim the Holy Spirit led them?


Don't let it bother you. I just fully agree with what the Bible says and follow accordingly, that's all. The NT has abundant rules and commands for believers to follow, so I follow them, with the help and guidance of the Holy Spirit. It's both/and, not either/or.

Again (and again and again) God has sent us the Holy Spirit to be our guide, not some set of rules.

Jesus didn't say that the Holy Spirit will lead us into some truth. John 16:13, "When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come." Saying you have dealt with that verse means nothing. It says what it says.

For those who truly follow the Spirit, there is no need for external rules and commands. It's not a false dilemma. Your claiming it is doesn't change that fact.

And again, if you are guided by the Spirit, or more properly filled with the Spirit, you know how to behave.

I will indulge your argument about abortion -- once.

a) "Well, as per my example, there are some who claim to be Christian and believe that intentionally ending the life of the unborn is okay." So you prefer that he mother dies? Do some research on ectopic pregnancy.

b) ... "such Christians most certainly do need to be told not to kill another human being." By you? Who are you to lecture others in Christ about their personal medical decisions? Try watching a newborn suffer and die because it's malformed lungs don't work.

c) "Apart from that, many, if not most, Christians are very selfish, very worldly, to the point that they don't even realize it." Who are you to condemn most of the body of Christ??? "So, once again, they need to be told what to believe and what to do about it." Who appointed you to be the infallible teacher? Christians should follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit, not your personal, judgmental opinion.

"Christians can be wrong about certain things and still be Christian. Besides, every Christian is wrong about any number of things." No comment! You would delete my post if I replied what I thought!

"Being against abortion is the Christian position on that issue. By your own words, if Christians "reject Christian doctrine . . . they're not Christians, obviously." ... Anyway, it was only an example and I'm not going to debate abortion in this thread."

Which is exactly what you're doing!!! You are not the one to determine what is "the Christian position on that issue". I and many other compassionate Christians believe in people making decisions about their own medical care. Women needlessly die in childbirth because of "the (supposed) Christian position".

You are making some very serious claims about what other Christians believe in your posts. Who set you up as the judge of others in the body of Christ? Your thoughts and opinions are just that -- thoughts and opinions. You are not infallible! And you have no basis for saying what is the Christian position on any manner. The main problem is that you're guided by rules and authority and think everyone else should be. Why did Paul write this? " Now I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you be in agreement and that there be no divisions among you but that you be knit together in the same mind and the same purpose. For it has been made clear to me by Chloe’s people that there are quarrels among you, my brothers and sisters. What I mean is that each of you says, “I belong to Paul,” or “I belong to Apollos,” or “I belong to Cephas,” or “I belong to Christ.” Has Christ been divided? 1 Corinthians 1:10-13a

Personally, I follow Christ! I don't accept the teaching of any single person, especially anyone who considers themself the spokesperson of Christendom!

 

[Free]

Again (and again and again) God has sent us the Holy Spirit to be our guide, not some set of rules.

Again, it's both/and, not either/or. I've even proven it by showing you several times that many of the verses you are using to deny rules and commands for believers actually are rules and commands.

Jesus didn't say that the Holy Spirit will lead us into some truth. John 16:13, "When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come." Saying you have dealt with that verse means nothing. It says what it says.

I dealt with it, showing that you are ignoring the context, which is everything.

For those who truly follow the Spirit, there is no need for external rules and commands. It's not a false dilemma. Your claiming it is doesn't change that fact.

It is a false dilemma, as much as you deny it. Again, I've proven it using the very same verses you use to deny that there are rules and commands for believers. It's both/and, not either/or.

And again, if you are guided by the Spirit, or more properly filled with the Spirit, you know how to behave.

And, yet, every single Christian sins in a variety of ways, many without even realizing it, and some believe things that are error. That's why the Holy Spirit guides us by the rules and commands in the Bible, so we know what's expected of us.

I will indulge your argument about abortion -- once.

Again, as I clearly said, it was only an example I'm not going to debate it, so I don't know why you think I want you to indulge my argument.

c) "Apart from that, many, if not most, Christians are very selfish, very worldly, to the point that they don't even realize it." Who are you to condemn most of the body of Christ??? "

Let me clarify: most in the Western church are selfish. This is something that has been written about for centuries, and it has only gotten worse.

Who appointed you to be the infallible teacher?

Never said I was.

Christians should follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit,

Of course, and the Bible.

not your personal, judgmental opinion.

We should always take into account what other believers say.

"Being against abortion is the Christian position on that issue. By your own words, if Christians "reject Christian doctrine . . . they're not Christians, obviously." ... Anyway, it was only an example and I'm not going to debate abortion in this thread."

Which is exactly what you're doing!!!

I responded to you and reminded you that it is only an example, and yet you continue to debate it.

You are making some very serious claims about what other Christians believe in your posts.

Because I take very seriously what Christians believe to be true.

Who set you up as the judge of others in the body of Christ?

Paul did. You would know that if you believed the rules and commands that he wrote:

1Co 5:11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother or sister who is sexually immoral or greedy, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or robber. Do not even eat with such a one.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do with judging those outside? Is it not those who are inside that you are to judge? (ESV)

You are not infallible!

Again, I never said I was.

And you have no basis for saying what is the Christian position on any manner.

I certainly do if the Bible and the historical Christian position on an issue agree with me.

The main problem is that you're guided by rules and authority and think everyone else should be. Why did Paul write this? " Now I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you be in agreement and that there be no divisions among you but that you be knit together in the same mind and the same purpose. For it has been made clear to me by Chloe’s people that there are quarrels among you, my brothers and sisters. What I mean is that each of you says, “I belong to Paul,” or “I belong to Apollos,” or “I belong to Cephas,” or “I belong to Christ.” Has Christ been divided? 1 Corinthians 1:10-13a

1Co 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. (ESV)

Those pesky rules again. You can't seem to refute them without appealing to them.

Personally, I follow Christ!

If you truly follow Christ, you follow his commands:

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.
Joh 13:35 By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

Joh 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
...
Joh 14:21 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”

Joh 15:10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.
Joh 15:11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.
Joh 15:12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.

1Jn 2:3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

1Jn 3:22 and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.
1Jn 3:24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.

1Jn 4:21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

(All ESV.)

I don't accept the teaching of any single person, especially anyone who considers themself the spokesperson of Christendom!

I don't either.

 

[jaybo]

Again, it's both/and, not either/or. I've even proven it by showing you several times that many of the verses you are using to deny rules and commands for believers actually are rules and commands.


I dealt with it, showing that you are ignoring the context, which is everything.


It is a false dilemma, as much as you deny it. Again, I've proven it using the very same verses you use to deny that there are rules and commands for believers. It's both/and, not either/or.


And, yet, every single Christian sins in a variety of ways, many without even realizing it, and some believe things that are error. That's why the Holy Spirit guides us by the rules and commands in the Bible, so we know what's expected of us.


Again, as I clearly said, it was only an example I'm not going to debate it, so I don't know why you think I want you to indulge my argument.


Let me clarify: most in the Western church are selfish. This is something that has been written about for centuries, and it has only gotten worse.


Never said I was.


Of course, and the Bible.


We should always take into account what other believers say.


I responded to you and reminded you that it is only an example, and yet you continue to debate it.


Because I take very seriously what Christians believe to be true.


Paul did. You would know that if you believed the rules and commands that he wrote:

1Co 5:11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother or sister who is sexually immoral or greedy, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or robber. Do not even eat with such a one.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do with judging those outside? Is it not those who are inside that you are to judge? (ESV)


Again, I never said I was.


I certainly do if the Bible and the historical Christian position on an issue agree with me.


1Co 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. (ESV)

Those pesky rules again. You can't seem to refute them without appealing to them.


If you truly follow Christ, you follow his commands:

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.
Joh 13:35 By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

Joh 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
...
Joh 14:21 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”

Joh 15:10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.
Joh 15:11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.
Joh 15:12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.

1Jn 2:3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

1Jn 3:22 and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.
1Jn 3:24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.

1Jn 4:21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

(All ESV.)


I don't either.

I'm ignoring most of this post except...

You wrote, "I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. (ESV)"

Why don't you follow Paul's advice? I won't say anything more on the subject. And I won't try to convince you about the guidance of the Holy Spirit vs following rules and commands. It saddens me that you don't understand this basic truth.

1 Corinthians 10:29, "I mean the other’s conscience, not your own. "For why should my freedom be subject to the judgment of someone else’s conscience?"

Galatians 5:1, "For freedom Christ has set us free. Stand firm, therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery."

1 Corinthians 5:13-14, "For you were called to freedom, brothers and sisters, only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for self-indulgence,[a] but through love become enslaved to one another. For the whole law is summed up in a single commandment, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” "

1 Peter 2:16, "As servants of God, live as free people, yet do not use your freedom as a pretext for evil."

Free Christian people are governed internally by the Holy Spirit. Enslaved "Christians" are governed by laws and commands, thereby denying the Holy Spirit's guidance.

 

[Free]

I'm ignoring most of this post except...

Of course you are. That keeps you from having to address any clear counterarguments and Scripture that prove exceptionally difficult for your position. It's what you have done consistently throughout the thread. I find that to be quite disrespectful. Is that the Holy Spirit guiding you to do that?

You wrote, "I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. (ESV)"

Why don't you follow Paul's advice? I won't say anything more on the subject. And I won't try to convince you about the guidance of the Holy Spirit vs following rules and commands. It saddens me that you don't understand this basic truth.

I understand quite well, since I am taking everything into account and not ignoring those parts I disagree with. It's strange that you claim I "don't understand this basic truth," when I have addressed everything you put to me but you have ignored the majority of what I have given.

1 Corinthians 10:29, "I mean the other’s conscience, not your own. "For why should my freedom be subject to the judgment of someone else’s conscience?"

Galatians 5:1, "For freedom Christ has set us free. Stand firm, therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery."

1 Corinthians 5:13-14, "For you were called to freedom, brothers and sisters, only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for self-indulgence,[a] but through love become enslaved to one another. For the whole law is summed up in a single commandment, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” "

1 Peter 2:16, "As servants of God, live as free people, yet do not use your freedom as a pretext for evil."

Free Christian people are governed internally by the Holy Spirit. Enslaved "Christians" are governed by laws and commands, thereby denying the Holy Spirit's guidance.

And there you go, yet again, not only arguing against rules and commands for Christians by appealing to rules and commands for Christians, but also arguing to a false dilemma. So, your position is, so far, based on self-defeating arguments, Scripture that ignores context, ignoring any Scripture and rebuttals that strongly appear to undermine it, and some errors in reasoning. You are convincing me more and more that my position is by far the most biblical of the two.

 

[Robert Pate]

Of course you are. That keeps you from having to address any clear counterarguments and Scripture that prove exceptionally difficult for your position. It's what you have done consistently throughout the thread. I find that to be quite disrespectful. Is that the Holy Spirit guiding you to do that?


I understand quite well, since I am taking everything into account and not ignoring those parts I disagree with. It's strange that you claim I "don't understand this basic truth," when I have addressed everything you put to me but you have ignored the majority of what I have given.


And there you go, yet again, not only arguing against rules and commands for Christians by appealing to rules and commands for Christians, but also arguing to a false dilemma. So, your position is, so far, based on self-defeating arguments, Scripture that ignores context, ignoring any Scripture and rebuttals that strongly appear to undermine it, and some errors in reasoning. You are convincing me more and more that my position is by far the most biblical of the two.

You have a theology based upon the Old Covenant of law, rules and religion. This covenant has been abolished, Ephesians 2:15. Jesus nailed it to his cross, Colossians 2:14.

Under the New Covenant God's people live by faith, Romans 1:17. They live by faith in Christ and his Gospel. Under the New Covenant, "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness for those that believe" Romans 10:4. To continue under the Old Covenant is to be under the curse, Galatians 3:10.

 

[Free]

You have a theology based upon the Old Covenant of law, rules and religion. This covenant has been abolished, Ephesians 2:15. Jesus nailed it to his cross, Colossians 2:14.

Under the New Covenant God's people live by faith, Romans 1:17. They live by faith in Christ and his Gospel. Under the New Covenant, "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness for those that believe" Romans 10:4. To continue under the Old Covenant is to be under the curse, Galatians 3:10.

Again, the fallacy of equivocation--the law of Moses has nothing to do with rules and commands for believers. Why do you insist on continuing to use this error in reasoning? Living by faith has nothing to do with whether or not there are rules and commands for believers.

So, not only am I not living under the old covenant and am certainly not under a curse, I can say I love Jesus and it is true:

Joh 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
...
Joh 14:21 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”

Joh 15:10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.
Joh 15:11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.
Joh 15:12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.

1Jn 2:3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

1Jn 3:22 and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.
1Jn 3:24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.

1Jn 4:21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

(All ESV.)

I know that I have Christ because I keep his commandments.

 

[jaybo]

Again, the fallacy of equivocation--the law of Moses has nothing to do with rules and commands for believers. Why do you insist on continuing to use this error in reasoning? Living by faith has nothing to do with whether or not there are rules and commands for believers.

So, not only am I not living under the old covenant and am certainly not under a curse, I can say I love Jesus and it is true:

Joh 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
...
Joh 14:21 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”

Joh 15:10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.
Joh 15:11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.
Joh 15:12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.

1Jn 2:3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

1Jn 3:22 and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.
1Jn 3:24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.

1Jn 4:21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

(All ESV.)

I know that I have Christ because I keep his commandments.

Did you really mean to write "Living by faith has nothing to do with whether or not there are rules and commands for believers."? Congratulations!!! You are beginning to understand truth!

 

[Robert Pate]

Again, the fallacy of equivocation--the law of Moses has nothing to do with rules and commands for believers. Why do you insist on continuing to use this error in reasoning? Living by faith has nothing to do with whether or not there are rules and commands for believers.

So, not only am I not living under the old covenant and am certainly not under a curse, I can say I love Jesus and it is true:

Joh 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
...
Joh 14:21 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”

Joh 15:10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.
Joh 15:11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.
Joh 15:12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.

1Jn 2:3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

1Jn 3:22 and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.
1Jn 3:24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.

1Jn 4:21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

(All ESV.)

I know that I have Christ because I keep his commandments.

The law and the commandments are spiritual, They search the desires and the intent of the heart, Hebrews 4:12. This means that in order to keep the commandments all of your thoughts and desires would have to be without sin. Do you lust? Do you covet? Have you ever lied? This is why Paul said, "There is none righteous, no, not one. For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" Romans 3:10, 23.

If your salvation is based upon your righteousness and keeping the commandments, you are in serious trouble.

 

[Free]

Yes, it is the Holy Spirit guiding me into not responding to your confused, demeaning posts. Satisfied?

Interesting. I wouldn't expect the Holy Spirit to guide people to treat others so poorly and ignore so much Scripture.

You do not understand basic Christian truths, starting with the fact that you think Christians are supposed to follow commands, rather than being guided by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit's guidance is fundamental to the New Covenant, but you insist on behaving as though it is the Old Covenant that is to be obeyed.

There you go, again, misrepresenting my position. I have consistently said that it is both/and not either/or. You should at least try and understand what I am saying.

Citing Scripture that ignores context, ignoring any Scripture and rebuttals that strongly appear to undermine your out-of-context citations, and your many, many errors in reasoning are what underlie your false thinking.

You are clearly unable to address any of my clear counterarguments and cannot refute the Scripture I gave that prove exceptionally difficult for your flawed position. It's what you have done consistently throughout the thread.

Why do you insist on playing this silly game? Children mimic; adults discuss. Anyone who bothers to read through this thread will be able to confirm all that I have said.

Clearly it is not the Holy Spirit guiding you to do that, but your own adherence to the flawed logic of following commands and rules. Jesus does not want us to be robots.

You claim to understand basic Christian doctrine, yet you clearly do not.

And, yet, it is you who continually uses self-defeating arguments, Scripture that ignores context, ignoring any Scripture and rebuttals that strongly appear to undermine it, and some errors in reasoning. Anyone who bothers to read through this thread would agree.

Did you really mean to write "Living by faith has nothing to do with whether or not there are rules and commands for believers."? Congratulations!!! You are beginning to understand truth!

It is you that has misunderstood. To argue that we "live by faith" is utterly irrelevant to the discussion.

Every time you post, I am more convinced that my position is more biblical than yours, by quite a margin.

 

[Free]

The law and the commandments are spiritual, They search the desires and the intent of the heart, Hebrews 4:12. This means that in order to keep the commandments all of your thoughts and desires would have to be without sin. Do you lust? Do you covet? Have you ever lied?

Firstly, your conclusion doesn't follow. Secondly, to suggest that the "word of God" in Heb 4:12 refers to the law and the commandments, is to undermine all that you've said about the old and new covenants. If it is true that "the word of God is living and active," then that would mean the law is still in effect. It would also mean it is discerning all believers' "thoughts and intentions of the heart."

If your salvation is based upon your righteousness and keeping the commandments, you are in serious trouble.

It isn't, so I'm not. If you really think that I think that, you have completely misunderstood everything I've said and need to go back to the start reread my posts.

 

[jaybo]

Interesting. I wouldn't expect the Holy Spirit to guide people to treat others so poorly and ignore so much Scripture.


There you go, again, misrepresenting my position. I have consistently said that it is both/and not either/or. You should at least try and understand what I am saying.


Why do you insist on playing this silly game? Children mimic; adults discuss. Anyone who bothers to read through this thread will be able to confirm all that I have said.


And, yet, it is you who continually uses self-defeating arguments, Scripture that ignores context, ignoring any Scripture and rebuttals that strongly appear to undermine it, and some errors in reasoning. Anyone who bothers to read through this thread would agree.


It is you that has misunderstood. To argue that we "live by faith" is utterly irrelevant to the discussion.

Every time you post, I am more convinced that my position is more biblical than yours, by quite a margin.

"I wouldn't expect the Holy Spirit to guide people to treat others so poorly and ignore so much Scripture" I agree 100%, so why do you continue treating myself and others so poorly and ignore so much of the Scripture that we cite?

An example: you wrote "Why do you insist on playing this silly game? Children mimic; adults discuss. Anyone who bothers to read through this thread will be able to confirm all that I have said" Calling what I and others post "a silly game" is treating others poorly. It's yet another example of your usual ad hominem strategy. As is "it is you who continually uses self-defeating arguments". Another ad hominem.

Living by faith "is utterly irrelevant to the discussion"??? Wow!!! When is living by faith ever irrelevant to anything???

The OP addresses "man conceived religions". Living by commandments and rules is a man-conceived religion. Living by faith and guidance by the Holy Spirit is true religious life.

Every time you post, I am more convinced that my position is more biblical than yours, by quite a margin.

 

[Free]

"I wouldn't expect the Holy Spirit to guide people to treat others so poorly and ignore so much Scripture" I agree 100%, so why do you continue treating myself and others so poorly and ignore so much of the Scripture that we cite?

An example: you wrote "Why do you insist on playing this silly game? Children mimic; adults discuss. Anyone who bothers to read through this thread will be able to confirm all that I have said" Calling what I and others post "a silly game" is treating others poorly. It's yet another example of your usual ad hominem strategy. As is "it is you who continually uses self-defeating arguments". Another ad hominem.

Living by faith "is utterly irrelevant to the discussion"??? Wow!!! When is living by faith ever irrelevant to anything???

The OP addresses "man conceived religions". Living by commandments and rules is a man-conceived religion. Living by faith and guidance by the Holy Spirit is true religious life.

Every time you post, I am more convinced that my position is more biblical than yours, by quite a margin.

And with that, I'm done with this discussion. You have been completely disrespectful throughout the discussion, ignoring the vast majority of what I have given as evidence of my position, ignoring rebuttals of your position, and ignoring questions.

 

[Free]

Bye! I'm thankful that you're leaving! Now I and others can discuss the thread's topic, Scripture, doctrine etc. and not have to read any more of your ad hominem posts. This post is a perfect example!!

"You have been completely disrespectful" and "continuing to play your childish mimicking game" are perfect examples! Since you are unable to discuss the topic but instead resort to constant personal attacks, you will not be missed.

So, after posting all that I did, simply by reading the Bible and using critical thinking, I decided to do a quick search and found this:

"Why did the Holy Spirit include rules for holy living in the New Testament? After all, the Old Testament Law was firmly established. So were these rules really needed, especially after Jesus died for our sins? Yes indeed. Otherwise God would not have included them in the New Testament.
...
When we get into the later chapters, we are given rules for holy living. That is the correct order. Rules don't "work" in religion unless people first repent and believe the good news. You first have to be in the family.
...
For the Christian, the rules in the epistles show us how God wants us to live. Of course, it is only Christ in us and the power of the Holy Spirit that enables us to do those things which are pleasing to the Father. It is God who "works in us to will and to do what pleases Him." (Phil. 2:13) God not only gets all the credit for our justification, but God also gets all the credit for our sanctification as well.

As always, the Word of God has the power in itself to bring about the desired outcome in the hearts and lives of the hearers. That has always been the case with Scripture because all of it is "God-breathed." (2 Timothy 3:16) "The Word of God is living and active." (Hebrews 4:12) This living Word produces the Christian life in those who trust Jesus for salvation."

https://www.christianpost.com/news/do-new-testament-rules-facilitate-christian-living.html

Anyway, that was just the top of the list and supports everything I said.

 

[jaybo]

So, after posting all that I did, simply by reading the Bible and using critical thinking, I decided to do a quick search and found this:

"Why did the Holy Spirit include rules for holy living in the New Testament? After all, the Old Testament Law was firmly established. So were these rules really needed, especially after Jesus died for our sins? Yes indeed. Otherwise God would not have included them in the New Testament.
...
When we get into the later chapters, we are given rules for holy living. That is the correct order. Rules don't "work" in religion unless people first repent and believe the good news. You first have to be in the family.
...
For the Christian, the rules in the epistles show us how God wants us to live. Of course, it is only Christ in us and the power of the Holy Spirit that enables us to do those things which are pleasing to the Father. It is God who "works in us to will and to do what pleases Him." (Phil. 2:13) God not only gets all the credit for our justification, but God also gets all the credit for our sanctification as well.

As always, the Word of God has the power in itself to bring about the desired outcome in the hearts and lives of the hearers. That has always been the case with Scripture because all of it is "God-breathed." (2 Timothy 3:16) "The Word of God is living and active." (Hebrews 4:12) This living Word produces the Christian life in those who trust Jesus for salvation."

https://www.christianpost.com/news/do-new-testament-rules-facilitate-christian-living.html

Anyway, that was just the top of the list and supports everything I said.

I agree with this 100%. Thanks for posting this! It agrees with what I have been saying throughout the discussion!

 

[Free]

I agree with this 100%. Thanks for posting this! It agrees with what I have been saying throughout the discussion!

No you don't and no it doesn't. I'll highlight the relevant parts:

"Why did the Holy Spirit include rules for holy living in the New Testament? After all, the Old Testament Law was firmly established. So were these rules really needed, especially after Jesus died for our sins? Yes indeed. Otherwise God would not have included them in the New Testament.
...
When we get into the later chapters, we are given rules for holy living. That is the correct order. Rules don't "work" in religion unless people first repent and believe the good news. You first have to be in the family.
...
For the Christian, the rules in the epistles show us how God wants us to live. Of course, it is only Christ in us and the power of the Holy Spirit that enables us to do those things which are pleasing to the Father. It is God who "works in us to will and to do what pleases Him." (Phil. 2:13) God not only gets all the credit for our justification, but God also gets all the credit for our sanctification as well.

As always, the Word of God has the power in itself to bring about the desired outcome in the hearts and lives of the hearers. That has always been the case with Scripture because all of it is "God-breathed." (2 Timothy 3:16) "The Word of God is living and active." (Hebrews 4:12) This living Word produces the Christian life in those who trust Jesus for salvation."


It clearly says there are rules for Christian living, to show us how to live, and that the Holy Spirit enables us to follow them. That is what I have been saying the whole time and what you have been denying. Now I'm done.

 

[Free]

Why can't you discuss the thread's topic?

I would, but I tried, and tried, and tried, and you and the other have simply ignored the vast majority of what I've said. This is a debate and discussion forum, so repeatedly ignoring what others say while merely repeating one's own position is disrespectful and makes any further attempt at discussion pointless.

 

[jaybo]

I would, but I tried, and tried, and tried, and you and the other have simply ignored the vast majority of what I've said. This is a debate and discussion forum, so repeatedly ignoring what others say while merely repeating one's own position is disrespectful and makes any further attempt at discussion pointless.

I agree entirely when you write, "This is a debate and discussion forum, so repeatedly ignoring what others say while merely repeating one's own position is disrespectful and makes any further attempt at discussion pointless." Why don't you heed your own advice???

Do you really not understand the difference between disagreeing with what someone writes and ignoring it? You clearly believe that the New Covenant, being in Christ, and being guided by the Holy Spirit is all about commands and rules. You repeat the same idea over and over and over and over ... and over, thinking that endless repetition makes your doctrine right. It doesn't! And when I and others disagree with your false understanding, you resort to ad hominem attacks.

So if merely repeating one's own position is disrespectful and makes any further attempt at discussion pointless, why do you continue to do it???

 

[Robert Pate]

Firstly, your conclusion doesn't follow. Secondly, to suggest that the "word of God" in Heb 4:12 refers to the law and the commandments, is to undermine all that you've said about the old and new covenants. If it is true that "the word of God is living and active," then that would mean the law is still in effect. It would also mean it is discerning all believers' "thoughts and intentions of the heart."


It isn't, so I'm not. If you really think that I think that, you have completely misunderstood everything I've said and need to go back to the start reread my posts.

The law is still in effect for unbelievers but not Christians. Why would Paul say, "Knowing this the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient"? 1 Timothy 1:9.