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Man Conceived Religions

What do you mean by "obeying grace"?

Being led by the Spirit of grace.

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
Romans 8:14


Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
Hebrews 10:28-29

  • how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace



Walking according to the Spirit; the Spirit of grace.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1




I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:16-21


For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, Titus 2:11-12


Grace is the Holy Spirit; the Spirit of grace.


The same as obeying the truth, and walking in the truth.







JLB
 
No one can live the Christian life until they are free from the law. It is the law that promotes sin. The more one tries to be holy by keeping the law the more one will sin, Romans 7:8. This is why the organized church is full of hypocrites.
No one can claim to be a Christian if they don't follow the commands of Jesus:

1Jn 2:3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

Apart from those words being inspired by God, why would and could John write such a thing? Because he was merely repeating what Christ himself said, as recorded in John's gospel:

Joh 14:15If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
...
Joh 14:21 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”

Joh 15:10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.
Joh 15:11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.
Joh 15:12This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.


And what are just some of those commandments from Jesus?

Mat 5:23 So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you,
Mat 5:24 leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
...
Mat 5:27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’
Mat 5:28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Mat 5:29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell.
Mat 5:30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.
Mat 5:31 “It was also said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’
Mat 5:32 But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
Mat 5:33 “Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform to the Lord what you have sworn.’
Mat 5:34 But I say to you, Do not take an oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God,
Mat 5:35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.
Mat 5:36 And do not take an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black.
Mat 5:37 Let what you say be simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything more than this comes from evil.
Mat 5:38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’
Mat 5:39 But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Mat 5:40 And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well.
Mat 5:41 And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.
Mat 5:42 Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.
Mat 5:43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’
Mat 5:44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.
Joh 13:35 By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

1Jn 3:22 and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.
1Jn 3:24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.

1Jn 4:21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

2Jn 1:4 I rejoiced greatly to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as we were commanded by the Father.
2Jn 1:5 And now I ask you, dear lady—not as though I were writing you a new commandment, but the one we have had from the beginning—that we love one another.
2Jn 1:6 And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, so that you should walk in it.


And here, Jesus not only commands the disciples to go make more disciples, but also to teach others "to observe all that I have commanded you."

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

(All ESV.)

Putting that all together then, Jesus issues quite a number of commands and rules for living as his followers. Indeed, he says that anyone who loves him will keep his commandments, which clearly implies that those who don't keep his commandments does not love him. (And John reiterates this in his epistles.) Jesus then commands the disciples to go make more disciples of all nations and to teach them to follow all that he commanded the disciples. That simply cannot be denied.

The result is seen throughout the rest of the NT, where most of the books have at least some commands and rules for right belief and holy living as followers of Christ. This has nothing to do with justification, which is a point that Paul continually makes--no one can ever be justified by the law. It is about sanctification and obedience. Some of the commands and rules for believers are from the law and all are based on the moral law:

Mat 22:37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the great and first commandment.
Mat 22:39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. (ESV)

We cannot follow them and carry them out on our own; we need the help and guidance of the Holy Spirit. He provides the understanding of the rules and commands, the will to follow them, and the wisdom in how to apply them in our daily lives. To ignore those rules and commands is to ignore God, ignore what he has commanded, and is evidence that one doesn't actually love him.
 
No one can live the Christian life until they are free from the law. It is the law that promotes sin. The more one tries to be holy by keeping the law the more one will sin, Romans 7:8. This is why the organized church is full of hypocrites.
You are entirely correct about the law and its effect on people. One is either governed by external commands, rules, etc. or they are governed by the Holy Spirit. It's an either/or situation.

However, I don't think it's wise to say that "the organized church is full of hypocrites". There are many people in the organized church who try to live their lives as the Holy Spirit directs them.
 
You have rejected the New Covenant, the Gospel and justification by faith. You have also rejected Paul's epistles.

It appears to me that you are under the law, Galatians 3:10.
 
You are entirely correct about the law and its effect on people. One is either governed by external commands, rules, etc. or they are governed by the Holy Spirit. It's an either/or situation.

However, I don't think it's wise to say that "the organized church is full of hypocrites". There are many people in the organized church who try to live their lives as the Holy Spirit directs them.
Organized religion and the historical Gospel of Jesus Christ are not compatible. The Gospel and the Holy Spirit are inseparable. You can't have one without the other.
 
You have rejected the New Covenant, the Gospel and justification by faith. You have also rejected Paul's epistles.

It appears to me that you are under the law, Galatians 3:10.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9


Eternal salvation is for those who obey Jesus Christ.


Those who live is disobedience will find themselves abiding with the Devil in the everlasting fires of hell.


JLB
 
And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9


Eternal salvation is for those who obey Jesus Christ.


Those who live is disobedience will find themselves abiding with the Devil in the everlasting fires of hell.


JLB
You have taken scripture out of context. We are not saved by our works or our obedience. If that were true Jesus lived and died in vain.
 
You have taken scripture out of context. We are not saved by our works or our obedience. If that were true Jesus lived and died in vain.


Read the scripture, read the chapter and read the entire book of Hebrews. It doesn’t change these words…


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9


But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? Luke 6:46


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4


God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8


  • eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
  • but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,


Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29


  • those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
  • and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9







JLB
 
You have rejected the New Covenant, the Gospel and justification by faith. You have also rejected Paul's epistles.

It appears to me that you are under the law, Galatians 3:10.
I've given Scripture which clearly supports what I have said; it's precisely why I've said what I have. My position is securely based on Scripture. I most certainly have not rejected the new covenant, the gospel, or justification by faith. I have very clearly posted what the gospel is (at least in another discussion with you) and that we are justified by faith and not the law, so to say that I believe otherwise is a lie and misrepresentation of what I believe.

I also have not rejected Paul's epistles. In fact, I have shown several times in this thread the numerous commands that Paul gives for believers, but you have consistently left those posts, and the questions I asked in them, unaddressed.

As to Gal 3:10, I believe I have addressed this previously as well. Paul is talking about being "justified before God by the law" (3:11), but I clearly stated that "no one is ever justified by the law."

Joh 14:15If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

1Jn 2:3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

We are guided by the Holy Spirit, mostly through his inspired words in the Bible, which include commands and rules for believers to follow. Jesus's and John's words make pretty clear what they think--what God thinks--of those who do and don't follow them.
 
As a Christian I am guided by the Holy Spirit, not by a set of external laws and commands. Paul made this perfectly clear when he wrote this to the church in Rome: "In the same way, my brothers and sisters, you have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God. For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we are enslaved in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the written code."

The written code of behavior was in effect for thousands of years, yet it was ineffective to change a person internally. External rules, regulations, commands, etc. are useless to control a person's behavior. A person's behavior can only be controlled by what is internal: either the sin nature of Adam, or the divine nature of the Holy Spirit.

External rules, regulations, commands have been shown by Scripture to be entirely ineffective in governing a person's life.
Either one is guided internally by the Holy Spirit or externally by laws and commands. No person can be governed by both.

Matthew 25:14-30 clearly teaches this principle...

“For it is as if a man, going on a journey, summoned his slaves and entrusted his property to them; to one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. At once the one who had received the five talents went off and traded with them and made five more talents. In the same way, the one who had the two talents made two more talents. But the one who had received the one talent went off and dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money. After a long time the master of those slaves came and settled accounts with them. Then the one who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five more talents, saying, ‘Master, you handed over to me five talents; see, I have made five more talents.’ His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and trustworthy slave; you have been trustworthy in a few things; I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.’ And the one with the two talents also came forward, saying, ‘Master, you handed over to me two talents; see, I have made two more talents.’ His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and trustworthy slave; you have been trustworthy in a few things; I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.’ Then the one who had received the one talent also came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew that you were a harsh man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you did not scatter, so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’ But his master replied, ‘You wicked and lazy slave! You knew, did you, that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I did not scatter? Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and on my return I would have received what was my own with interest. So take the talent from him, and give it to the one with the ten talents. For to all those who have, more will be given, and they will have an abundance, but from those who have nothing, even what they have will be taken away. As for this worthless slave, throw him into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ "

It is critical to understand in this teaching of Jesus that the man did not give specific orders to his slaves. Instead, he entrusted them with his wealth. Two were guided internally and did the right thing because they trusted themselves to behave in accordance with what the master would want. The other trusted neither the master nor himself and, rather than be guided internally, acted solely in a way to avoid punishment.

The lesson of this parable is perfectly clear.
 
I've given Scripture which clearly supports what I have said; it's precisely why I've said what I have. My position is securely based on Scripture. I most certainly have not rejected the new covenant, the gospel, or justification by faith. I have very clearly posted what the gospel is (at least in another discussion with you) and that we are justified by faith and not the law, so to say that I believe otherwise is a lie and misrepresentation of what I believe.

I also have not rejected Paul's epistles. In fact, I have shown several times in this thread the numerous commands that Paul gives for believers, but you have consistently left those posts, and the questions I asked in them, unaddressed.

As to Gal 3:10, I believe I have addressed this previously as well. Paul is talking about being "justified before God by the law" (3:11), but I clearly stated that "no one is ever justified by the law."

Joh 14:15If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

1Jn 2:3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

We are guided by the Holy Spirit, mostly through his inspired words in the Bible, which include commands and rules for believers to follow. Jesus's and John's words make pretty clear what they think--what God thinks--of those who do and don't follow them.
I don't think that you understand that the commandments are the law. Jesus was a teacher of the Mosiac law. He not only taught it he elevated it and spiritualized it. So that now you can sin not only by what you do, but also by what you think,
 
I don't think that you understand that the commandments are the law. Jesus was a teacher of the Mosiac law. He not only taught it he elevated it and spiritualized it. So that now you can sin not only by what you do, but also by what you think,
Did Jesus say that those who love him will keep his commands? Did John say that whoever doesn’t keep Jesus’s commands doesn’t know him and is a liar if they claim they do? Did Jesus command his disciples to go make others disciples and to teach them to observe what he commanded them?

Three simple questions.
 
Jesus said that He would ask the Father and that He would send us the Holy Spirit who would guide us into all truth?
The basis of the law is external commands. The basis of freedom is the absence of external authority.

Galatians 5:1, "For freedom Christ has set us free. Stand firm, therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery."
 
Did Jesus say that those who love him will keep his commands? Did John say that whoever doesn’t keep Jesus’s commands doesn’t know him and is a liar if they claim they do? Did Jesus command his disciples to go make others disciples and to teach them to observe what he commanded them?

Three simple questions.
The law demands perfection or death. If you are going to keep the law you will have to keep all of it and keep it perfectly. If you fail in one part of the law you have failed the whole thing and are a sinner, "The soul that sins must die".

"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse" Galatians 3:10.


Jesus in your name and on your behalf has already fulfilled the Law. "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness for those that believe. Galatians 3:10. You don't believe. You are trying to do in your flesh what Jesus has already done for you. You have earned the curse.
 
The law demands perfection or death. If you are going to keep the law you will have to keep all of it and keep it perfectly. If you fail in one part of the law you have failed the whole thing and are a sinner, "The soul that sins must die".

"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse" Galatians 3:10.


Jesus in your name and on your behalf has already fulfilled the Law. "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness for those that believe. Galatians 3:10. You don't believe. You are trying to do in your flesh what Jesus has already done for you. You have earned the curse.
I asked three simple questions. Are you going to answer them or ignore them and just keep repeating your position?
 
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