Amen.
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Are you taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Wearing the right shoes, and properly clothed spiritually?
Join Elected By Him for a devotional on Ephesians 6:14-15
https://christianforums.net/threads/devotional-selecting-the-proper-shoes.109094/
Man Conceived Religions
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
Amen.
Why do you keep repeating the same thing? If you want to put yourself under the law as a Christina, I really wonder why?
Galatians 5:1, "For freedom Christ has set us free. Stand firm, therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery."
"1 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices 2 a(1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural
(2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
3 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion
"[uncountable] the belief in the existence of a god or gods, and the activities that are connected with the worship of them, or in the teachings of a spiritual leader"
https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/religion
"A personal or institutional system of beliefs, practices, and values relating to the cosmos and supernatural."
https://sociologydictionary.org/religion/
"religion, human beings’ relation to that which they regard as holy, sacred, absolute, spiritual, divine, or worthy of especial reverence. It is also commonly regarded as consisting of the way people deal with ultimate concerns about their lives and their fate after death. In many traditions, this relation and these concerns are expressed in terms of one’s relationship with or attitude toward gods or spirits; in more humanistic or naturalistic forms of religion, they are expressed in terms of one’s relationship with or attitudes toward the broader human community or the natural world. In many religions, texts are deemed to have scriptural status, and people are esteemed to be invested with spiritual or moral authority. Believers and worshippers participate in and are often enjoined to perform devotional or contemplative practices such as prayer, meditation, or particular rituals. Worship, moral conduct, right belief, and participation in religious institutions are among the constituent elements of the religious life."
https://www.britannica.com/topic/religion
Yes, which makes a Christian a member of the religion of Christianity as per each of the definitions above.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Jaybo,
Do you consider following the commandments as being under the Law?
Because a couple of you continue to repeat fallacious reasoning and have completely avoided actually addressing the points I am making. If your reasoning is fallacious, and it is, then it must be abandoned
See, fallacious reasoning. You are falsely equating the law of Moses with rules and commands for believers and we could also call it a straw man. It certainly makes it easy for you to dismiss my points without actually addressing them. Here are a few questions that maybe you can answer:
1Co 14:37 If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord.
1Co 14:38 If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.
1Co 14:39 So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.
2Th 3:4 And we have confidence in the Lord about you, that you are doing and will do the things that we command.
2Th 3:5 May the Lord direct your hearts to the love of God and to the steadfastness of Christ.
2Th 3:6 Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.
2Th 3:7 For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us, because we were not idle when we were with you,
2Th 3:8 nor did we eat anyone's bread without paying for it, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you.
2Th 3:9 It was not because we do not have that right, but to give you in ourselves an example to imitate.
2Th 3:10 For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat.
2Th 3:11 For we hear that some among you walk in idleness, not busy at work, but busybodies.
2Th 3:12 Now such persons we command and encourage in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their work quietly and to earn their own living.
2Th 3:13 As for you, brothers, do notgrow weary in doing good.
2Th 3:14 If anyone does not obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed.
2Th 3:15 Do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.
1Ti 4:11 Command and teach these things.
1Ti 5:7 Command these things as well, so that they may be without reproach.
1Ti 6:11 But as for you, O man of God, flee these things. Pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, steadfastness, gentleness.
1Ti 6:12 Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called and about which you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses
1Ti 6:13 I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who in his testimony before Pontius Pilate made the good confession,
1Ti 6:14 to keep the commandments unstained and free from reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1. Is Paul writing commands for believers in the above?
2. Is Paul commanding Timothy to command other believers?
1Jn 2:3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,
...
1Jn 2:7 Beloved, I am writing you no new commandment, but an old commandment that you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word that you have heard.
1Jn 2:8 At the same time, it is a new commandment that I am writing to you, which is true in him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining.
1Jn 3:22 and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.
1Jn 3:24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.
1Jn 4:20 If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.
1Jn 4:21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.
2Jn 1:4 I rejoiced greatly to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as we were commanded by the Father.
2Jn 1:5 And now I ask you, dear lady—not as though I were writing you a new commandment, but the one we have had from the beginning—that we love one another.
2Jn 1:6 And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, so that you should walk in it.
3. Is John saying that we should follow the commands of Jesus?
4. What does John say about those who say they know Jesus but don’t follow his commandments?
(All ESV.)
Very simple questions with simple answers.
Yes, of course. If you are dependent on external commands then you are guided by the law. Jesus said that God would send us the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth, not a new set of laws. The Old Covenant was based on external commands, and nobody could keep them all, therefore all sinned. The New Covenant is not a new set of laws!
Jesus died to set us free from the law. Was His sacrifice in vain?
=> I do not have to respond according to your demands <= You continue to repeat fallacious reasoning and have completely avoided actually addressing the points that I am making. Since your reasoning is fallacious it must be abandoned.
I have stated my position and there is no need for me to do so again. You believe that to be a Christian means you have to obey commands. That is totally fallacious reasoning.
Galatians 5:1, "For freedom Christ has set us free. Stand firm, therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery."
Romans 7:4, "In the same way, my brothers and sisters, you have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God".
Romans 7:6, "But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we are enslaved in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the written code."
It would be a good thing for you to drop your demanding tone and have a reasonable discussion. You believe in demands, rules, etc. You are trying to control the discussion in an authoritarian manner, but nobody is answerable to you.
I have responded on this subject to Free many times, yet he persists in the same line of questioning and demands that I respond the way he commands. I will not participate in any discussion in which someone demands that the discussion goes according to his or her rules. That in itself is putting someone under a form of law rather than allowing them the freedom to discuss the subject as they see fit.
I have given numerous verses in response to his repetitive demands, including this...
"To the married I give this command—not I but the Lord—that the wife should not separate from her husband (but if she does separate, let her remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband) and that the husband should not divorce his wife.
To the rest I say—I and not the Lord—that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever and she consents to live with him, he should not divorce her. And if any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever and he consents to live with her, she should not divorce the husband." 1 Corinthians 7:10-13
He considers that everything written in the New Testament is a new form of the law. Clearly this is not the case, as is shown above. He depends on EXTERNAL AUTHORITY, which to me is completely contrary to the basic principle of New Covenant. WE ARE TO BE GUIDED INTERNALLY BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, NOT EXTERNALLY BY RULES AND COMMANDS. I don't see how anyone who disagrees with this can call themself a Christian.
P.S. Read my signature below and ponder what it says: be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may test and approve what is the will of God. It is the antithesis of following the law!
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
I didn't demand anything. I simply said there were a few questions that maybe you could answer.
Doing this silly game again, are you?
No, there certainly isn't; that isn't what I asked.
Yes, because the NT makes it very clear that there are certain rules and commands for proper Christian belief and practice.
Show me how, exactly, it is fallacious.
Yes, in speaking of the law of Moses (see Gal 4:21). But that has nothing to do with rules and commands for believers.
Again, this is speaking of the law of Moses, which has nothing to do with rules and commands for believers.
There is no demanding tone. And, again, I have demanded nothing and am being more than reasonable considering your continual avoidance of answering my points and questions, which is really poor form for discussion. You always insist people answer your questions but often avoid answering others' questions, as you have done yet again.
No, nothing even remotely authoritarian or trying to control the discussion. I'm just trying to actually have a rational, civil conversation in the manner of rational people, like adults and Christians. Having a rational discussion entails giving and answering objections, arguments, and questions, which is precisely what I have been doing. So far, all you have given is fallacious reasoning, but you won't even address that.
Your writing "explain this to me" is a command.
As Christians we are supposed to be self-governing. New Christians need teachers to understand how they are supposed to live, but we're also supposed to graduate from milk to meat. We are not supposed to put ourselves under a new yoke of slavery.
1 Corinthians 10:29b, "For why should my freedom be subject to the judgment of someone else’s conscience?"
Galatians 5:1, "For freedom Christ has set us free. Stand firm, therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery."
Galatians 5:13, "For you were called to freedom, brothers and sisters, only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for self-indulgence, but through love become enslaved to one another."
1 Peter 2:16, "As servants of God, live as free people, yet do not use your freedom as a pretext for evil."
Frankly, I am tired of trying to explain the freedom that we have in Christ to "Free". If he wants to make himself a slave to the law that is his decision, but I am tired of his overbearing attitude.
Yes, and I addressed that, showing how your understanding is likely incorrect.
https://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/1 Cor 7.10-13
No, I don't. Please don't misrepresent my position.
The Bible is the "external authority" I am referring to, and that is your argument against my position? Why do you even own a Bible? Throw it out or sell it.
Context, context, context.
Rom 12:1 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.
Rom 12:2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. (ESV)
Look, Paul is commanding believers in a quote you think proves my position false.
You are demanding answers and demand that you control the conversation and that everyone must answer to you.
And if I was an administrator, I would censure you for writing this insult: "Doing this silly game again, are you?"
And then you write, "Show me how, exactly, it is fallacious.". And then you claim: There is no demanding tone." "Show me how, exactly" is a demand (to which I will not respond). Why must you persist in trying to control the conversation? ANSWER ME!!! (But that is not send in a demanding tone!!! LOL!!!)
And then you write, "I have demanded nothing (!!!) and am being more than reasonable (!!!) considering your continual avoidance of answering my points and questions, which is really poor form for discussion." Why do I have to answer your points and questions??? Who do you think you are??? What gives you the right to control how and what I write??? Do you really not see the way you come across??? You are demanding and try to force the discussion along you terms!!! Why should I or anyone else communicate according to your rigid rules???
If you want to have a discussion about the OP, fine, let's have that discussion. I think that you have a reasonable understanding of Christianity. However, I will not be subject to your rules! If you try to dominate the discussion and try to force me into answering you the way you order me to, we are in for a long winter.
Again, if I was an administrator, I would censure you for writing, "Why do you even own a Bible? Throw it out or sell it."
Is an insult like that conducive to a fruitful discussion? I could say with just as much validity that I doubt you even own a Bible. But I won't, as that would be hostile.
Did you even read this? "Rom 12:2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect." (ESV)
That completely contradicts your insistence on obeying external laws, commands, and rules!!! Read it again!!!
Your own minds must be renewed! Why would he write that if there were laws telling people what to do?
He tells them that by testing they may discern the will of God. Why would he write that if there were laws telling people what to do?
Do you really not understand??? It is up to believers to have their own minds renewed so that they they can decide for themselves how to live Godly lives. Not by rules, commandments, edicts, laws, etc. By their own God-given minds!!!
Again, read my signature below...
No, I am not. I am trying to have a rational discussion where everyone addresses points, arguments, and questions, back and forth, as discussions of this sort entail. When one side is continually avoiding things, that makes rational discussion impossible.
It isn't an insult. You have used that tactic ad nauseam and not only with me. Simply repeating back to a person what they have stated is the game of mimicking that children play--"I know you are but what am I." It's not for adults and has no place in rational discussion.
You made a claim but didn't back it up. Again, just trying to have a rational discussion.
So many question marks. I don't think I'm the one being demanding. And that is exactly what I meant--you want everyone to answer your questions but you're not willing to address others' questions. This is not on my terms, but on the general social terms of rational and civil discussion. Failing to address things that an opposing viewpoint states is simply to fail at rational discourse, or better, dialogue or even debate. What you are doing is essentially diatribe.
That's exactly what I was trying to do when you jumped in with your post, which I have shown to be lacking in understanding.
There is nothing wrong there. You said, "He depends on EXTERNAL AUTHORITY, which to me is completely contrary to the basic principle of New Covenant. WE ARE TO BE GUIDED INTERNALLY BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, NOT EXTERNALLY BY RULES AND COMMANDS." What that means is that I am in error for depending on my "external authority" and should only listen to the Holy Spirit. But, my "external authority" is the Bible. So, I don't know why you own a Bible when depending on it is "completely contrary to the basic principles of New Covenant." Your position is very inconsistent.
Not an insult; a logical conclusion of your arguments. See immediately above.
No, actually you couldn't.
I don't need to read it again. Look at the first two words--"Do not." That is a command, or a rule if you prefer. Even "but be" is a command or rule.
Oh, the inconsistency of your position. Paul first commands them to not be "conformed to this world," and then tells them to "be transformed." He is literally telling them what to do.
How about we look down a few verses:
Rom 12:9 Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good.
Rom 12:10 Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor.
Rom 12:11 Do not be slothful in zeal, be fervent in spirit, serve the Lord.
Rom 12:12 Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer.
Rom 12:13 Contribute to the needs of the saints and seek to show hospitality.
Rom 12:14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them.
Rom 12:15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep.
Rom 12:16 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight.
Rom 12:17 Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all.
Rom 12:18 If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all.
Rom 12:19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”
Rom 12:20 To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.”
Rom 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. (ESV)
I count 28 more times, in just 13 verses, that Paul is telling believers how to live, giving them commands and rules to follow for godly, Christian living. How many do you count? So demanding, that Paul.
No, not "so that they can decide for themselves how to live Godly lives." That is precisely why so many "Christians" think they're Christians and why Christians and Christianity are such a mess. It is a worldly, selfish, way of thinking, which is precisely what Paul is arguing against. Paul tells us the reason: "that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect."
Failing to address things that an opposing viewpoint states is simply to fail at rational discourse, or better, dialogue or even debate. What you are doing is purely a diatribe.
"Can a blind person guide a blind person? Will not both fall into a pit?" Luke 6:39b
As a result, since I can't put you on "ignore" I will just ignore any further posts from you. You claim to see but your are blind.
"Can a blind person guide a blind person? Will not both fall into a pit?" Luke 6:39b
As a result, since I can't put you on "ignore" I will just ignore any further posts from you. You claim to see but your are blind.
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Robert Pate
Member
To live by laws, rules and religion is a denial that "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believes" Romans 10:4. This is also why "The law works wrath: for where there is no law there is no transgression." Romans 4:15.