Man Conceived Religions

[GodsGrace]

Yes, of course. If you are dependent on external commands then you are guided by the law. Jesus said that God would send us the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth, not a new set of laws. The Old Covenant was based on external commands, and nobody could keep them all, therefore all sinned. The New Covenant is not a new set of laws!

Jesus died to set us free from the law. Was His sacrifice in vain?

How is something an external command if Jesus tells us to do it?

The New Covenant maintains the commandments of the Mosaic Covenant (Old Covenant).
God's commandments will never cease.

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mark 3:35
For whoever does the will of God is My brother and sister and mother."
John 14:15
15“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
Psalm 119:89
Your word, O LORD, is everlasting; it is firmly fixed in the heavens.


The law has passed away...the Law of Moses...
But the Word of God, the Commandments...
will live forever.

 

[jaybo]

To live by laws, rules and religion is a denial that "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believes" Romans 10:4. This is also why "The law works wrath: for where there is no law there is no transgression." Romans 4:15.

You will never convince Free that Christians are not under the law. He is clearly into authoritarianism and cannot comprehend the freedom that we have in Christ.

On a deeper level, since we are in Christ and He kept all the requirements of the law perfectly and died so that we would not be punished, it is madness to put one's self back under the law. It is analogous to a person who has been freed from prison but wants to return because in prison at least there were rules! Madness!!!

 

[GodsGrace]

To live by laws, rules and religion is a denial that "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believes" Romans 10:4. This is also why "The law works wrath: for where there is no law there is no transgression." Romans 4:15.

Christ is the end of the Law FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
When we believe and follow Jesus, HE is our righteousness.
HIS righteousness is imputed to us.
Romans 4:5
Romans 3:22

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, of course. If you are dependent on external commands then you are guided by the law. Jesus said that God would send us the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth, not a new set of laws. The Old Covenant was based on external commands, and nobody could keep them all, therefore all sinned. The New Covenant is not a new set of laws!

Jesus died to set us free from the law. Was His sacrifice in vain?

I was thinking about the above.

You said Jesus died to make us free from the law.
What law?

Didn't Jesus die as an atonement for our sins?
I can't think of one atonement theory that states Jesus died to free us from the law.

Do YOU know of one??

 

[Robert Pate]

How is something an external command if Jesus tells us to do it?

The New Covenant maintains the commandments of the Mosaic Covenant (Old Covenant).
God's commandments will never cease.

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mark 3:35
For whoever does the will of God is My brother and sister and mother."
John 14:15
15“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
Psalm 119:89
Your word, O LORD, is everlasting; it is firmly fixed in the heavens.


The law has passed away...the Law of Moses...
But the Word of God, the Commandments...
will live forever.

The commandments are the law. Jesus taught the Mosiac law. It was abolished when Jesus died on the cross, Ephesians 2:15. Jesus nailed it to his cross, Colossians 2:14, because it is a ministration of death, 2 Corinthians 3:7.

 

[Robert Pate]

Christ is the end of the Law FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
When we believe and follow Jesus, HE is our righteousness.
HIS righteousness is imputed to us.
Romans 4:5
Romans 3:22

We don't have it yet. It is reserved for us in heaven, 1 Peter 1:4.

 

[jaybo]

How is something an external command if Jesus tells us to do it?

The New Covenant maintains the commandments of the Mosaic Covenant (Old Covenant).
God's commandments will never cease.

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mark 3:35
For whoever does the will of God is My brother and sister and mother."
John 14:15
15“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
Psalm 119:89
Your word, O LORD, is everlasting; it is firmly fixed in the heavens.


The law has passed away...the Law of Moses...
But the Word of God, the Commandments...
will live forever.

I don't understand what you're saying.

First you say that The New Covenant maintains the commandments of the Mosaic Covenant (Old Covenant). Then you say that the law has passed away...the Law of Moses... These are contradictory statements.

Since we are in Christ and He kept the requirements of the OT law perfectly, then we are considered to have kept them perfectly. The OT law does not apply to Christians.

The Word of God, the Commandments, will live forever. But they apply only to those who are outside of Christ.

Paul wrote this to the church in Galatia regarding the OT law... "For freedom Christ has set us free. Stand firm, therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery" Galatians 5:1.

It is preceded by this great symbolic passage...

"Tell me, you who desire to be subject to the law, will you not listen to the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by an enslaved woman and the other by a free woman. One, the child of the enslaved woman, was born according to the flesh; the other, the child of the free woman, was born through the promise. Now this is an allegory: these women are two covenants. One woman, in fact, is Hagar, from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery. Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the other woman corresponds to the Jerusalem above; she is free, and she is our mother. For it is written,

“Rejoice, you childless one, you who bear no children,
burst into song and shout, you who endure no birth pangs,
for the children of the desolate woman are more numerous
than the children of the one who is married.”

Now you, my brothers and sisters, are children of the promise, like Isaac. But just as at that time the child who was born according to the flesh persecuted the child who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. But what does the scripture say? “Drive out the enslaved woman and her child, for the child of the enslaved woman will not share the inheritance with the child of the free woman.” So then, brothers and sisters, we are children, not of an enslaved woman but of the free woman." Galatians 4:21-31

BTW, I hope that Free reads this! Perhaps he will gain some understanding of the law vs freedom. But I'm not hopeful. 8^(

 

[JLB]

"1 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices 2 a(1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural
(2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
3 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith"

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion


"[uncountable] the belief in the existence of a god or gods, and the activities that are connected with the worship of them, or in the teachings of a spiritual leader"

https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/religion


"A personal or institutional system of beliefs, practices, and values relating to the cosmos and supernatural."

https://sociologydictionary.org/religion/


"religion, human beings’ relation to that which they regard as holy, sacred, absolute, spiritual, divine, or worthy of especial reverence. It is also commonly regarded as consisting of the way people deal with ultimate concerns about their lives and their fate after death. In many traditions, this relation and these concerns are expressed in terms of one’s relationship with or attitude toward gods or spirits; in more humanistic or naturalistic forms of religion, they are expressed in terms of one’s relationship with or attitudes toward the broader human community or the natural world. In many religions, texts are deemed to have scriptural status, and people are esteemed to be invested with spiritual or moral authority. Believers and worshippers participate in and are often enjoined to perform devotional or contemplative practices such as prayer, meditation, or particular rituals. Worship, moral conduct, right belief, and participation in religious institutions are among the constituent elements of the religious life."

https://www.britannica.com/topic/religion


Yes, which makes a Christian a member of the religion of Christianity as per each of the definitions above.

I didnt actually believe you would give another dictionary definition to support your theory.

It's seems your beliefs come from secular dictionaries and not the scriptures.


JLB

 

[jaybo]

We don't have it yet. It is reserved for us in heaven, 1 Peter 1:4.

We do have it -- now.

Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— not the result of works, so that no one may boast."

Romans 3:21-26, "But now, apart from the law, the righteousness of God has been disclosed and is attested by the Law and the Prophets, the righteousness of God through the faith of Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction, since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God; they are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a sacrifice of atonement by his blood, effective through faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over the sins previously committed; it was to demonstrate at the present time his own righteousness, so that he is righteous and he justifies the one who has the faith of Jesus." (Present tense)

 

[JLB]

How is something an external command if Jesus tells us to do it?

The New Covenant maintains the commandments of the Mosaic Covenant (Old Covenant).
God's commandments will never cease.

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mark 3:35
For whoever does the will of God is My brother and sister and mother."
John 14:15
15“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
Psalm 119:89
Your word, O LORD, is everlasting; it is firmly fixed in the heavens.


The law has passed away...the Law of Moses...
But the Word of God, the Commandments...
will live forever.

The commandments written on our heart are internal, inspired by the Spirit who empowers us to keep them and thus we are empowered to practice righteousness and walk in holiness according to the Spirit of holiness who dwells within us.

declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.
Romans 1:4


The Holy Spirit

 

[GodsGrace]

I have responded on this subject to Free many times, yet he persists in the same line of questioning and demands that I respond the way he commands. I will not participate in any discussion in which someone demands that the discussion goes according to his or her rules. That in itself is putting someone under a form of law rather than allowing them the freedom to discuss the subject as they see fit.

I have given numerous verses in response to his repetitive demands, including this...

"To the married I give this command—not I but the Lord—that the wife should not separate from her husband (but if she does separate, let her remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband) and that the husband should not divorce his wife.

To the rest I say—I and not the Lord—that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever and she consents to live with him, he should not divorce her. And if any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever and he consents to live with her, she should not divorce the husband." 1 Corinthians 7:10-13

He considers that everything written in the New Testament is a new form of the law. Clearly this is not the case, as is shown above. He depends on EXTERNAL AUTHORITY, which to me is completely contrary to the basic principle of New Covenant. WE ARE TO BE GUIDED INTERNALLY BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, NOT EXTERNALLY BY RULES AND COMMANDS. I don't see how anyone who disagrees with this can call themself a Christian.

P.S. Read my signature below and ponder what it says: be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may test and approve what is the will of God. It is the antithesis of following the law!

Sorry Jaybo,
I can't remember if I've replied to this.

The New Covenant states that GOD WILL PUT HIS LAWS INTO OUR HEART....Jeremiah 31:33, Ezekiel
Not that they are abolished.
Jesus raised the bar for following God's commandments,
Jesus didn't LOWER it.
He said just looking at a woman could cause a sin. (adultery).
Matthew 5:27
Jesus made everything be a matter of the heart.
This required more than what the Pharisees did, not less.
Matthew 5:20

Internally, the Holy Spirit helps us to keep God's commandments...
but the internal MUST BE transferred to the external.

Feeding the hungry is an internal desire...
but unless we move it to the external, the hungry will die.
And so with every commandment...

 

[GodsGrace]

Your writing "explain this to me" is a command.

See, you obeyed!
LOL

As Christians we are supposed to be self-governing. New Christians need teachers to understand how they are supposed to live, but we're also supposed to graduate from milk to meat. We are not supposed to put ourselves under a new yoke of slavery.

I agree with this. About how we are to know what is right and what is wrong...self-governing.
But do you believe that moving from milk to meat means putting ourselves under slavery??

1 Corinthians 10:29b, "For why should my freedom be subject to the judgment of someone else’s conscience?"
Galatians 5:1, "For freedom Christ has set us free. Stand firm, therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery."
Galatians 5:13, "For you were called to freedom, brothers and sisters, only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for self-indulgence, but through love become enslaved to one another."
1 Peter 2:16, "As servants of God, live as free people, yet do not use your freedom as a pretext for evil."

We have to be careful how we speak.
To many this idea of not being under law is understood as not obeying God.
As you posted 1 Peter 2:16 does state not to use God's freedom for evil.
Paul in Galatians 5:13 is saying that we are not to use our freedom as an opportunity for self-indulgence.

We are free from the law...from the external law, as you put it.
From the fact that if we don't follow the law perfectly, we'll end up lost.
But we are not free to disobey God.

When you say that following the commandments is being under the law...
you ARE saying that obeying God is being under the law.

 

[jaybo]

Sorry Jaybo,
I can't remember if I've replied to this.

The New Covenant states that GOD WILL PUT HIS LAWS INTO OUR HEART....Jeremiah 31:33, Ezekiel
Not that they are abolished.
Jesus raised the bar for following God's commandments,
Jesus didn't LOWER it.
He said just looking at a woman could cause a sin. (adultery).
Matthew 5:27
Jesus made everything be a matter of the heart.
This required more than what the Pharisees did, not less.
Matthew 5:20

Internally, the Holy Spirit helps us to keep God's commandments...
but the internal MUST BE transferred to the external.

Feeding the hungry is an internal desire...
but unless we move it to the external, the hungry will die.
And so with every commandment...

Of course! How we should behave as Christians is "written" into our hearts, so there is no need for external commandments! We are guided by the Holy Spirit internally; we Christians don't need a set of external commandments! Jesus did indeed make everything to be a matter of the heart, something the external law and the Pharisaic control obsolete.

Feeding the hungry is an internal desire...but unless we move it to the external, the hungry will die. That can be said about any act of charity, because they are motivated by the Spirit! No Christian needs to be commanded to give food to the hungry! It is done because we love our neighbors and don't want them to go hungry, whether next door, in town, in the Ukraine, or in Turkey. It is a spiritual motivation, not a command!

There are many occurrences in life for which there are no Biblical commands. Life changes constantly and one must heed the guidance of the Holy Spirit. An example I often give is driving at or below the speed limit. This is not mentioned in the Bible, but if one respects the law or is guided by the Holy Spirit, s/he will drive safely and be concerned with the safety of other drivers.

If you find a credit card lying on the ground, do you go on a shopping spree or make an effort to return it to its owner? That situation is not mentioned in the Bible, but every Christian knows which choice to make. You don't need the fear of authority to do the right thing if you're guided by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus said that God would send the Holy Spirit to us to guide us into all truth. That is why we don't need external laws. He guides our behavior to be in conformity with what God desires, not a set of rules.

 

[Free]

I didnt actually believe you would give another dictionary definition to support your theory.

It's seems your beliefs come from secular dictionaries and not the scriptures.

That is a false dichotomy. It comes from both; there is no disagreement between the two. According to the Bible, there is only good, neutral, and bad religion.

Neutral use of "religion":

Act 26:5 They have known for a long time, if they are willing to testify, that according to the strictest party of our religion I have lived as a Pharisee. (ESV)

Bad religion:

Col 2:18 Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind, (ESV)

Good religion:

Jas 1:26 If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless.
Jas 1:27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world. (ESV)

The Bible only speaks of the outward expression of religion but doesn't actually define it. That is left up to us and what was originally meant by thrēskeia. As such, we must look to other sources, which is what I have done.

 

[Free]

Failing to address things that an opposing viewpoint states is simply to fail at rational discourse, or better, dialogue or even debate. What you are doing is purely a diatribe.

What I said: "Failing to address things that an opposing viewpoint states is simply to fail at rational discourse, or better, dialogue or even debate. What you are doing is essentially diatribe."

Why are you still intent on playing your childish game of mimicking?

"Can a blind person guide a blind person? Will not both fall into a pit?" Luke 6:39b

As a result, since I can't put you on "ignore" I will just ignore any further posts from you. You claim to see but your are blind.

Personal attacks are against the ToS. Please, discuss things respectfully or leave the thread.

The irony is, you call me blind, but it is you that has consistently evaded answering any objections or questions. It really seems that that is why you just want to ignore my posts, then you don't have to answer four simple questions. Why do these discussions with you always end this way--no answers, just walk away? Are you even interested in truth? From where I'm sitting, you're not.

 

[Free]

To live by laws, rules and religion is a denial that "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believes" Romans 10:4. This is also why "The law works wrath: for where there is no law there is no transgression." Romans 4:15.

Again, fallacious reasoning. I asked four simple questions, are you going to answer them?

 

[GodsGrace]

The commandments are the law. Jesus taught the Mosiac law. It was abolished when Jesus died on the cross, Ephesians 2:15. Jesus nailed it to his cross, Colossians 2:14, because it is a ministration of death, 2 Corinthians 3:7.

Oh goodness.
Of course the Mosaic Law was abolished !
We're not even Jewish.

I do believe that we're discussing here the TEN COMMANDMENTS.
Those are for all time and will never expire.
Jesus mentioned every one, I believe.
It's late here and I'm tired right now,,,,
but could we agree that we MUST OBEY the 10 commandments?

The two great commandments of Jesus would cover each and every one of them:
Love God
Love Your neighbor as Yourself.

Love covers all sins.

 

[GodsGrace]

We don't have it yet. It is reserved for us in heaven, 1 Peter 1:4.

What is reserved for us in heaven?
I have to leave.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't understand what you're saying.

First you say that The New Covenant maintains the commandments of the Mosaic Covenant (Old Covenant). Then you say that the law has passed away...the Law of Moses... These are contradictory statements.

Since we are in Christ and He kept the requirements of the OT law perfectly, then we are considered to have kept them perfectly. The OT law does not apply to Christians.

The Word of God, the Commandments, will live forever. But they apply only to those who are outside of Christ.

Paul wrote this to the church in Galatia regarding the OT law... "For freedom Christ has set us free. Stand firm, therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery" Galatians 5:1.

It is preceded by this great symbolic passage...

"Tell me, you who desire to be subject to the law, will you not listen to the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by an enslaved woman and the other by a free woman. One, the child of the enslaved woman, was born according to the flesh; the other, the child of the free woman, was born through the promise. Now this is an allegory: these women are two covenants. One woman, in fact, is Hagar, from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery. Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the other woman corresponds to the Jerusalem above; she is free, and she is our mother. For it is written,

“Rejoice, you childless one, you who bear no children,
burst into song and shout, you who endure no birth pangs,
for the children of the desolate woman are more numerous
than the children of the one who is married.”

Now you, my brothers and sisters, are children of the promise, like Isaac. But just as at that time the child who was born according to the flesh persecuted the child who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. But what does the scripture say? “Drive out the enslaved woman and her child, for the child of the enslaved woman will not share the inheritance with the child of the free woman.” So then, brothers and sisters, we are children, not of an enslaved woman but of the free woman." Galatians 4:21-31

BTW, I hope that Free reads this! Perhaps he will gain some understanding of the law vs freedom. But I'm not hopeful. 8^(

Too much and too late.
Tomorrow.
'night.

 

[jaybo]

What I said: "Failing to address things that an opposing viewpoint states is simply to fail at rational discourse, or better, dialogue or even debate. What you are doing is essentially diatribe."

Why are you still intent on playing your childish game of mimicking?


Personal attacks are against the ToS. Please, discuss things respectfully or leave the thread.

The irony is, you call me blind, but it is you that has consistently evaded answering any objections or questions. It really seems that that is why you just want to ignore my posts, then you don't have to answer four simple questions. Why do these discussions with you always end this way--no answers, just walk away? Are you even interested in truth? From where I'm sitting, you're not.

You wrote "Why are you still intent on playing your childish game of mimicking?" Followed by "Personal attacks are against the ToS." , Free, you should discuss things respectfully or leave the thread.

You wrote this: "The irony is, you call me blind, but it is you that has consistently evaded answering any objections or questions." Once again!!! I am not obligated in any way to respond to your posts, including personal attacks such as this one.

And then you end with this personal attack: "Are you even interested in truth? From where I'm sitting, you're not."

Why don't you heed your own instructions?