Man Conceived Religions

[Free]

You wrote "Why are you still intent on playing your childish game of mimicking?" Followed by "Personal attacks are against the ToS." , Free, you should discuss things respectfully or leave the thread.

There is nothing disrespectful in calling someone out on their failing to act like an adult in a discussion. The disrespect is playing that game in the first place.

You wrote this: "The irony is, you call me blind, but it is you that has consistently evaded answering any objections or questions." Once again!!! I am not obligated in any way to respond to your posts, including personal attacks such as this one.

You are socially obligated, if you're actually interested in dialogue, which it has become clear you're not. If all one wants to do is give their own opinion, then, no, they obviously are not obligated to respond to what others say.

And then you end with this personal attack: "Are you even interested in truth? From where I'm sitting, you're not."

It's not an attack, it's a question. You entered into a discussion between myself and someone else, by quoting me and providing a response. I refuted your post, which you completely ignored in favor of again jumping on something I said to someone else. When I responded to that post of yours, with four simple questions, you flew off the handle, and haven't gotten back on. I honestly don't get it.

Why don't you heed your own instructions?

Because I'm not the one acting disrespectfully by playing games and avoiding answering any and all objections and questions.

Anyway, I'm not discussing this anymore in here. This has gone on too long as it is. Feel free to either stick to the topic and debate respectfully or leave the thread.

 

[JLB]

That is a false dichotomy. It comes from both; there is no disagreement between the two. According to the Bible, there is only good, neutral, and bad religion.

Sounds like a mixture of some Bible and secular dictionary, sprinkled with your personal opinion.





JLB

 

[Robert Pate]

We do have it -- now.

Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— not the result of works, so that no one may boast."

Romans 3:21-26, "But now, apart from the law, the righteousness of God has been disclosed and is attested by the Law and the Prophets, the righteousness of God through the faith of Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction, since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God; they are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a sacrifice of atonement by his blood, effective through faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over the sins previously committed; it was to demonstrate at the present time his own righteousness, so that he is righteous and he justifies the one who has the faith of Jesus." (Present tense)

If you had the righteousness of Christ now, you would be in heaven.

We are still here on this planet in our unredeemed Adamic bodies, Romans 8:23.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't understand what you're saying.

First you say that The New Covenant maintains the commandments of the Mosaic Covenant (Old Covenant). Then you say that the law has passed away...the Law of Moses... These are contradictory statements.

The Law of Moses has passed away.
There are 613 laws from God in the OT.
We are not to keep all of them.
Jews don't even keep them anymore (except for some).

The commandments, which are part of the Law of Moses, will never be abolished.
God gave to Moses the 10 commandments on Mt. Sinai.
They are burned on stone.

John said:
1 John 2:3-6
And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

Since we are in Christ and He kept the requirements of the OT law perfectly, then we are considered to have kept them perfectly. The OT law does not apply to Christians.

Agreed.
The righteousness of Christ has been imputed to us.
We are made right with God through the sacrifice of Jesus.
Being right with God means we DO keep the commandments.
When I read what you and others post, it sounds as if we are not required to keep God's COMMANDMENTS.

The Word of God, the Commandments, will live forever. But they apply only to those who are outside of Christ.

Jaybo, those who are outside of Christ don't CARE about the commandments.
The commandments are for us.
They were give to the Israelites, together with the other laws/rules, because the Israelites had been kept under slavery for over 400 years and they were once again free. They had forgotten how to be a civilized nation., The law was for them to keep a civilized society. If you notice the rules given by Moses are in regards to how to handle any situation, like what happens between neighbors, marriage, sacrifice, etc.

Paul wrote this to the church in Galatia regarding the OT law... "For freedom Christ has set us free. Stand firm, therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery" Galatians 5:1.

It is preceded by this great symbolic passage...

"Tell me, you who desire to be subject to the law, will you not listen to the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by an enslaved woman and the other by a free woman. One, the child of the enslaved woman, was born according to the flesh; the other, the child of the free woman, was born through the promise. Now this is an allegory: these women are two covenants. One woman, in fact, is Hagar, from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery. Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the other woman corresponds to the Jerusalem above; she is free, and she is our mother. For it is written,

“Rejoice, you childless one, you who bear no children,
burst into song and shout, you who endure no birth pangs,
for the children of the desolate woman are more numerous
than the children of the one who is married.”

Now you, my brothers and sisters, are children of the promise, like Isaac. But just as at that time the child who was born according to the flesh persecuted the child who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. But what does the scripture say? “Drive out the enslaved woman and her child, for the child of the enslaved woman will not share the inheritance with the child of the free woman.” So then, brothers and sisters, we are children, not of an enslaved woman but of the free woman." Galatians 4:21-31

I'd say that, for instance, Islam is a religion of laws and rules that are to be meticulously kept under harsh punishment if broken. This is what Hagar represents.

The other woman represents SPIRITUAL freedom.
Jesus has freed us, but from what?
The grip of satan on our lives.
The Holy Spirit dwells within us so that we WANT to obey God's commandments.

If we walk by the flesh it means we do not have God in our lives and we just think about pleasing ourselves.
If we walk by the spirit it means we denounce satan and walk with God in true freedom and the ability to make wise moral choices. (not 100% of the time unfortunately).

Do you see the difference?

 

[GodsGrace]

Of course! How we should behave as Christians is "written" into our hearts, so there is no need for external commandments! We are guided by the Holy Spirit internally; we Christians don't need a set of external commandments! Jesus did indeed make everything to be a matter of the heart, something the external law and the Pharisaic control obsolete.

Feeding the hungry is an internal desire...but unless we move it to the external, the hungry will die. That can be said about any act of charity, because they are motivated by the Spirit! No Christian needs to be commanded to give food to the hungry! It is done because we love our neighbors and don't want them to go hungry, whether next door, in town, in the Ukraine, or in Turkey. It is a spiritual motivation, not a command!

There are many occurrences in life for which there are no Biblical commands. Life changes constantly and one must heed the guidance of the Holy Spirit. An example I often give is driving at or below the speed limit. This is not mentioned in the Bible, but if one respects the law or is guided by the Holy Spirit, s/he will drive safely and be concerned with the safety of other drivers.

If you find a credit card lying on the ground, do you go on a shopping spree or make an effort to return it to its owner? That situation is not mentioned in the Bible, but every Christian knows which choice to make. You don't need the fear of authority to do the right thing if you're guided by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus said that God would send the Holy Spirit to us to guide us into all truth. That is why we don't need external laws. He guides our behavior to be in conformity with what God desires, not a set of rules.

I agree !
But I think what you say is true because WE KNOW what the commandments are, so we follow them.
What if we had no clue?
I made the above rationalization to the monk I used to study with some years ago.
He said we need both.
We need to teach the young and new Christians that this law we have in our heart must still be obeyed.
I repeat, to read what you're saying, and others, it makes is SEEM (let's say) as though we are no longer under ANY law/rules/commands.

Could we at least distinguish between the OT laws of Moses and the NT law of Christ?
(the 2 great commandments, or, the commandments Jesus left us with).

 

[Robert Pate]

I agree !
But I think what you say is true because WE KNOW what the commandments are, so we follow them.
What if we had no clue?
I made the above rationalization to the monk I used to study with some years ago.
He said we need both.
We need to teach the young and new Christians that this law we have in our heart must still be obeyed.
I repeat, to read what you're saying, and others, it makes is SEEM (let's say) as though we are no longer under ANY law/rules/commands.

Could we at least distinguish between the OT laws of Moses and the NT law of Christ?
(the 2 great commandments, or, the commandments Jesus left us with).

If you need laws, rules, commandments, it may be that you are an unlawful and disobedient person, 1 Timothy 1:9.

 

[GodsGrace]

If you need laws, rules, commandments, it may be that you are an unlawful and disobedient person, 1 Timothy 1:9.

I give up.
You're not even acknowledging what I'm saying.
So this will be it for me.

But if any new Christians are reading along,
they should acquaint t hemselves with the 10 commandments and Jesus' 2 commandments
and live to obey God for the best of their ability.

John 3:36
36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

In order to obey, we must know what the rules are.
It's easy to know we shouldn't steal or murder anyone,
but do we know that we're supposed to be humble?
Do we know that divorce is against God's rules?
and others....

Sure. You know...you've been studying God's word.
What if you didn't and you were a new Christian?

 

[Robert Pate]

I give up.
You're not even acknowledging what I'm saying.
So this will be it for me.

But if any new Christians are reading along,
they should acquaint t hemselves with the 10 commandments and Jesus' 2 commandments
and live to obey God for the best of their ability.

John 3:36
36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

In order to obey, we must know what the rules are.
It's easy to know we shouldn't steal or murder anyone,
but do we know that we're supposed to be humble?
Do we know that divorce is against God's rules?
and others....

Sure. You know...you've been studying God's word.
What if you didn't and you were a new Christian?

Christians are NOT Pharisees. They are born again, Spirit led children of God. We know from the time that we are little children what the rules are, God gave us a conscience. Do you really need to be told to love others? Do you really need to be told not to sin against your neighbor? If you do, then like Paul said, you need laws, rules and commandments because you are unlawful and disobedient.

 

[Free]

Christians are NOT Pharisees. They are born again, Spirit led children of God. We know from the time that we are little children what the rules are, God gave us a conscience. Do you really need to be told to love others? Do you really need to be told not to sin against your neighbor? If you do, then like Paul said, you need laws, rules and commandments because you are unlawful and disobedient.

Why are there two of you that keep doing this? You are both completely ignoring the arguments and questions put to you and then just keep repeating your fallacious reasoning. I have given you four questions which you refuse to answer and wondering has given you questions which you refuse to answer. She is absolutely correct that both of you are not even acknowledging what is being said by others. I have given numerous verses which very clearly and unambiguously show Paul and John giving rules and commands for believers, and Paul commanding Timothy to command others. This shows a serious flaw in your theology which you need to address.

The question then is, why are you even posting in this debate forum if you're unwilling to debate and discuss respectfully by responding fully to arguments and questions?

 

[jaybo]

I give up.
You're not even acknowledging what I'm saying.
So this will be it for me.

But if any new Christians are reading along,
they should acquaint t hemselves with the 10 commandments and Jesus' 2 commandments
and live to obey God for the best of their ability.

John 3:36
36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

In order to obey, we must know what the rules are.
It's easy to know we shouldn't steal or murder anyone,
but do we know that we're supposed to be humble?
Do we know that divorce is against God's rules?
and others....

Sure. You know...you've been studying God's word.
What if you didn't and you were a new Christian?

God has sent Christians the Holy Spirit to be our guide -- our internal guide. We do not have to "know the rules", which are external and don't cover many facets of modern life. As I have pointed out elsewhere, the Bible says nothing about driving the speed limit, watching too much and/or the wrong kind of TV, etc.

 

[Free]

God has sent Christians the Holy Spirit to be our guide -- our internal guide. We do not have to "know the rules", which are external and don't cover many facets of modern life. As I have pointed out elsewhere, the Bible says nothing about driving the speed limit, watching too much and/or the wrong kind of TV, etc.

And I responded to show where and how the Bible addresses such things. But you ignored that as well.

 

[jaybo]

And I responded to show where and how the Bible addresses such things. But you ignored that as well.

Again, where does the Bible address such things as driving the speed limit, watching too much and/or the wrong kind of TV, etc? You did not show me where and how the Bible addresses those things. Why? Because it doesn't. If it does, please show me chapter and verse.

And once again, you make it personal by saying "But you ignored that as well." Will the day ever happen when you address the issue only and refrain from making it personal?

 

[Robert Pate]

Why are there two of you that keep doing this? You are both completely ignoring the arguments and questions put to you and then just keep repeating your fallacious reasoning. I have given you four questions which you refuse to answer and wondering has given you questions which you refuse to answer. She is absolutely correct that both of you are not even acknowledging what is being said by others. I have given numerous verses which very clearly and unambiguously show Paul and John giving rules and commands for believers, and Paul commanding Timothy to command others. This shows a serious flaw in your theology which you need to address.

The question then is, why are you even posting in this debate forum if you're unwilling to debate and discuss respectfully by responding fully to arguments and questions?

The rules, laws and commandments are for unbelievers, not Christians, Romans 8:1.

The worst part of laws, rules and commandments is that they promote sin, Romans 7:8-11.

I go by what Paul says and Paul says that you don't have the truth.

 

[Free]

Again, where does the Bible address such things as driving the speed limit, watching too much and/or the wrong kind of TV, etc? You did not show me where and how the Bible addresses those things. Why? Because it doesn't. If it does, please show me chapter and verse.

Already did it, here: https://christianforums.net/threads/man-conceived-religions.95271/page-2#post-1740181

And once again, you make it personal by saying "But you ignored that as well." Will the day ever happen when you address the issue only and refrain from making it personal?

It isn’t personal, it’s just stating the fact that it was only one of at least two posts that you ignored.

 

[Free]

The rules, laws and commandments are for unbelievers, not Christians, Romans 8:1.

Nope, Paul doesn’t say that there.

The worst part of laws, rules and commandments is that they promote sin, Romans 7:8-11.

The fallacy of equivocation, yet again.

I go by what Paul says and Paul says that you don't have the truth.

No, Paul doesn’t even come close to saying that. And you are not even close to going by what Paul says. You are ignoring a large chunk of what Paul says and some of what John says as well, and you must in order for your position to hold. You are divorcing verses from their context which has led you to into error, unless you can show me otherwise by addressing all those points and the simple four questions I asked. I am open to being wrong.

 

[jaybo]

The rules, laws and commandments are for unbelievers, not Christians, Romans 8:1.

The worst part of laws, rules and commandments is that they promote sin, Romans 7:8-11.

I go by what Paul says and Paul says that you don't have the truth.

Great post! Thanks for writing this!

 

[Robert Pate]

Nope, Paul doesn’t say that there.


The fallacy of equivocation, yet again.


No, Paul doesn’t even come close to saying that. And you are not even close to going by what Paul says. You are ignoring a large chunk of what Paul says and some of what John says as well, and you must in order for your position to hold. You are divorcing verses from their context which has led you to into error, unless you can show me otherwise by addressing all those points and the simple four questions I asked. I am open to being wrong.

I will print it out for you.

"Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and the profane, for murders of fathers and murders of mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers, for homosexuals, for men stealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine" 1 Timothy 1:9-10.

 

[Free]

I will print it out for you.

"Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and the profane, for murders of fathers and murders of mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers, for homosexuals, for men stealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine" 1 Timothy 1:9-10.

Again, this is the fallacy of equivocation. Paul is talking about the law of Moses. Rules and commands for believers are not the law of Moses but are for guiding Christian belief and behaviour.

What does Paul say just previously to Timothy?

1Ti 1:3 As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus so that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine,
1Ti 1:4 nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith. (ESV)

And, why does Paul (and John) give rules and commands for believers?

1Ti 1:18 This charge I entrust to you, Timothy, my child, in accordance with the prophecies previously made about you, that by them you may wage the good warfare,
1Ti 1:19 holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith, (ESV)

Firstly, because God inspired them to write those things to believers, and, secondly, because people can shipwreck their faith.

Do you want to go back and answer those simple four questions I asked?

 

[jaybo]

Christians are NOT Pharisees. They are born again, Spirit led children of God. We know from the time that we are little children what the rules are, God gave us a conscience. Do you really need to be told to love others? Do you really need to be told not to sin against your neighbor? If you do, then like Paul said, you need laws, rules and commandments because you are unlawful and disobedient.

Great post!

 

[jaybo]

I give up.
You're not even acknowledging what I'm saying.
So this will be it for me.

But if any new Christians are reading along,
they should acquaint t hemselves with the 10 commandments and Jesus' 2 commandments
and live to obey God for the best of their ability.

John 3:36
36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

In order to obey, we must know what the rules are.
It's easy to know we shouldn't steal or murder anyone,
but do we know that we're supposed to be humble?
Do we know that divorce is against God's rules?
and others....

Sure. You know...you've been studying God's word.
What if you didn't and you were a new Christian?

No, we do not need to know what "the rules are". That is a denial of the effect of the Holy Spirit in our lives.

John 16:13, "When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come."

Romans 7:4-6, "In the same way, my brothers and sisters, you have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God. For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we are enslaved in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the written code."

Christians are to be led in their lives by the (internal) Holy Spirit, not external laws. If I see someone injured by the side of the road, where is the law that says that I must help them? Yet Jesus told the parable of the (despised) Samaritan who gave the injured man aid and comfort, while the Jews (who knew the written law) passed him by.