Man Conceived Religions

[Free]

No, we do not need to know what "the rules are". That is a denial of the effect of the Holy Spirit in our lives.

Not only is it not "a denial of the effect of the Holy Spirit in our lives," it is what the Holy Spirit has told us is necessary through his inspiration of Scripture.

1Co 14:37 If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord.
1Co 14:38 If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.
1Co 14:39 So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.

2Th 3:4 And we have confidence in the Lord about you, that you are doing and will do the things that we command.
2Th 3:5 May the Lord direct your hearts to the love of God and to the steadfastness of Christ.
2Th 3:6 Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.
2Th 3:7 For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us, because we were not idle when we were with you,
2Th 3:8 nor did we eat anyone's bread without paying for it, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you.
2Th 3:9 It was not because we do not have that right, but to give you in ourselves an example to imitate.
2Th 3:10 For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat.
2Th 3:11 For we hear that some among you walk in idleness, not busy at work, but busybodies.
2Th 3:12 Now such persons we command and encourage in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their work quietly and to earn their own living.
2Th 3:13 As for you, brothers, do notgrow weary in doing good.
2Th 3:14 If anyone does not obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed.
2Th 3:15 Do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.

1Ti 4:11 Command and teach these things.

1Ti 5:7 Command these things as well, so that they may be without reproach.

1Ti 6:11 But as for you, O man of God, flee these things. Pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, steadfastness, gentleness.
1Ti 6:12 Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called and about which you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses
1Ti 6:13 I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who in his testimony before Pontius Pilate made the good confession,
1Ti 6:14 to keep the commandments unstained and free from reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,

1. Is Paul writing commands for believers in the above?
2. Is Paul commanding Timothy to command other believers?

1Jn 2:3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,
...
1Jn 2:7 Beloved, I am writing you no new commandment, but an old commandment that you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word that you have heard.
1Jn 2:8 At the same time, it is a new commandment that I am writing to you, which is true in him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining.

1Jn 3:22 and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.
1Jn 3:24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.

1Jn 4:20 If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.
1Jn 4:21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

2Jn 1:4 I rejoiced greatly to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as we were commanded by the Father.
2Jn 1:5 And now I ask you, dear lady—not as though I were writing you a new commandment, but the one we have had from the beginning—that we love one another.
2Jn 1:6 And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, so that you should walk in it.

3. Is John saying that we should follow the commands of Jesus?
4. What does John say about those who say they know Jesus but don’t follow his commandments?
5. Did the Holy Spirit inspire the above verses of the Bible?

(All ESV.)

Five simple questions.

Christians are to be led in their lives by the (internal) Holy Spirit, not external laws.

That is a false dichotomy. The Holy Spirit speaks to us mainly through Scripture, including all the rules and commands, to guide us in how to live.

1Co 7:10 To the married I give this charge (not I, but the Lord): the wife should not separate from her husband
1Co 7:11 (but if she does, she should remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband), and the husband should not divorce his wife.
1Co 7:12 To the rest I say (I, not the Lord) that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he should not divorce her.
1Co 7:13 If any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he consents to live with her, she should not divorce him. (ESV)

We not only have a few rules or commands for believers to follow in these few verses (in addition to the numerous ones above), Paul says that the "charge" (command) that he is giving is actually from the Lord. So, to say that "Christians are to be led in their lives by the (internal) Holy Spirit, not external laws," creates an immediate contradiction. If the Lord is giving a command for believers to follow, then, by your reasoning, we have to outright deny that statement and say that Paul lied. However, if Scripture is inspired, then what Paul wrote shows that the Holy Spirit has given at least one command.

Which do you think it is--did Paul lie or did the Holy Spirit give us at least one command?

 

[jaybo]

Not only is it not "a denial of the effect of the Holy Spirit in our lives," it is what the Holy Spirit has told us is necessary through his inspiration of Scripture.

1Co 14:37 If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord.
1Co 14:38 If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.
1Co 14:39 So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.

2Th 3:4 And we have confidence in the Lord about you, that you are doing and will do the things that we command.
2Th 3:5 May the Lord direct your hearts to the love of God and to the steadfastness of Christ.
2Th 3:6 Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.
2Th 3:7 For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us, because we were not idle when we were with you,
2Th 3:8 nor did we eat anyone's bread without paying for it, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you.
2Th 3:9 It was not because we do not have that right, but to give you in ourselves an example to imitate.
2Th 3:10 For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat.
2Th 3:11 For we hear that some among you walk in idleness, not busy at work, but busybodies.
2Th 3:12 Now such persons we command and encourage in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their work quietly and to earn their own living.
2Th 3:13 As for you, brothers, do notgrow weary in doing good.
2Th 3:14 If anyone does not obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed.
2Th 3:15 Do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.

1Ti 4:11 Command and teach these things.

1Ti 5:7 Command these things as well, so that they may be without reproach.

1Ti 6:11 But as for you, O man of God, flee these things. Pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, steadfastness, gentleness.
1Ti 6:12 Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called and about which you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses
1Ti 6:13 I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who in his testimony before Pontius Pilate made the good confession,
1Ti 6:14 to keep the commandments unstained and free from reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,

1. Is Paul writing commands for believers in the above?
2. Is Paul commanding Timothy to command other believers?

1Jn 2:3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,
...
1Jn 2:7 Beloved, I am writing you no new commandment, but an old commandment that you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word that you have heard.
1Jn 2:8 At the same time, it is a new commandment that I am writing to you, which is true in him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining.

1Jn 3:22 and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.
1Jn 3:24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.

1Jn 4:20 If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.
1Jn 4:21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

2Jn 1:4 I rejoiced greatly to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as we were commanded by the Father.
2Jn 1:5 And now I ask you, dear lady—not as though I were writing you a new commandment, but the one we have had from the beginning—that we love one another.
2Jn 1:6 And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, so that you should walk in it.

3. Is John saying that we should follow the commands of Jesus?
4. What does John say about those who say they know Jesus but don’t follow his commandments?
5. Did the Holy Spirit inspire the above verses of the Bible?

(All ESV.)

Five simple questions.


That is a false dichotomy. The Holy Spirit speaks to us mainly through Scripture, including all the rules and commands, to guide us in how to live.

1Co 7:10 To the married I give this charge (not I, but the Lord): the wife should not separate from her husband
1Co 7:11 (but if she does, she should remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband), and the husband should not divorce his wife.
1Co 7:12 To the rest I say (I, not the Lord) that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he should not divorce her.
1Co 7:13 If any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he consents to live with her, she should not divorce him. (ESV)

We not only have a few rules or commands for believers to follow in these few verses (in addition to the numerous ones above), Paul says that the "charge" (command) that he is giving is actually from the Lord. So, to say that "Christians are to be led in their lives by the (internal) Holy Spirit, not external laws," creates an immediate contradiction. If the Lord is giving a command for believers to follow, then, by your reasoning, we have to outright deny that statement and say that Paul lied. However, if Scripture is inspired, then what Paul wrote shows that the Holy Spirit has given at least one command.

Which do you think it is--did Paul lie or did the Holy Spirit give us at least one command?

I am not going to reply to all of this, but I will reply to one egregious statement that you made: "The Holy Spirit speaks to us mainly through Scripture, including all the rules and commands, to guide us in how to live."

There is nothing in Scripture that agrees with this. Jesus said, "When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come." John 16:13 Notice that this does not say command you!

The Spirit of Truth has already come and He (not the written word) will speak to us and guide us into all truth. And this was spoken by Jesus to a society that was largely illiterate, so it's clear that the Holy Spirit speaks directly to all people, whether or not they are a) literate and b) own a Bible. The Bible may be an aid to understanding God's messages to humanity, but it is the living God who communicates directly to us.

Many people do not own a Bible, yet that doesn't hinder them from believing what God says directly to them.

And I won't even address your emphasis on rules and commands., except for this: "For freedom Christ has set us free. Stand firm, therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery." Galatians 5:1 (referring to written commands and rules)

Written commands and rules are relevant to the Old Covenant, but not to the New Covenant.

And this time, so if you can address the subject and refrain from personal attacks.

 

[jaybo]

Acts 8:26-35, "Then an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Get up and go toward the south to the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” (This is a wilderness road.) So he got up and went. Now there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of the Candace, the queen of the Ethiopians, in charge of her entire treasury. [Obviously he was literate!] He had come to Jerusalem to worship and was returning home; seated in his chariot, he was reading the prophet Isaiah. Then the Spirit said to Philip, “Go over to this chariot and join it.” So Philip ran up to it and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah. He asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?” He replied, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to get in and sit beside him. Now the passage of the scripture that he was reading was this:

“Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter,
and like a lamb silent before its shearer,
so he does not open his mouth.
In his humiliation justice was denied him.
Who can describe his generation?
For his life is taken away from the earth.”
The eunuch asked Philip, “About whom, may I ask you, does the prophet say this, about himself or about someone else?” Then Philip began to speak, and starting with this scripture [but obviously continuing on) he proclaimed to him the good news about Jesus."

Notice that the man, who was obviously literate, needed someone to guide his interpretation. Philip, guided by the Holy Spirit, did just that. a) The Bible alone was not sufficient and b) Philip didn't give him a set of commands to follow. Verses 36-38 clearly show this: As they were going along the road, they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water! What is to prevent me from being baptized?” He commanded the chariot to stop, and both of them, Philip and the eunuch, went down into the water, and Philip baptized him." No set of commands, no laws to be followed, no keeping of the law, nada.

 

[Free]

I am not going to reply to all of this, but I will reply to one egregious statement that you made: "The Holy Spirit speaks to us mainly through Scripture, including all the rules and commands, to guide us in how to live."

There is nothing in Scripture that agrees with this.

On the contrary, I have given much that agrees with this, but you have so far ignored it.

Jesus said, "When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come." John 16:13

Who was Jesus talking to and what was the result? He was talking to the disciples and the result was Scripture. As I have stated previously, if this was always the case, all the time, for everyone, we could just throw out the Bible.

The interesting thing is, you're taking that statement as a rule for Christians while denying there are rules for Christians.

The Spirit of Truth has already come and He (not the written word) will guide us into all truth.

Do you agree with the following verses?

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. (ESV)

If the Spirit of Truth alone "will guide us into all truth" (properly all "the" truth; there is a difference), then Paul is once again lying, is he not?

And this was spoken to a society that was largely illiterate, so it's clear that the Holy Spirit speaks directly to us.

Yes, and mainly through Scripture. That is rather the whole point of Scripture.

The Bible may be an aid to understanding God's messages to humanity, but it is the living God who communicates directly to us.

So, "God's messages to humanity" aren't how he "communicates directly to us"? Then what would be the point of even providing the Bible, why not just "communicate directly with us?

You have actually put the cart before the horse. The Bible is God's direct revelation to us and it is the Holy Spirit that aids us both in understanding it and in doing what is asked and commanded of us.

Many people do not own a Bible, yet that doesn't hinder them from believing what God says directly to them.

Is that so?

And I won't even address your emphasis on rules and commands., except for this: "For freedom Christ has set us free. Stand firm, therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery." Galatians 5:1 (referring to written commands and rules)

Of course you won't, because the answers to those questions completely undermine your position.

Written commands and rules are relevant to the Old Covenant, but not to the New Covenant.

And, yet, as I have given, yet again, there are numerous rules and commands for believers to follow.

That is now at least six important, but simple, questions relevant to the discussion, showing significant contradictions and problems with your position, that you have ignored:

1. Is Paul writing commands for believers in the above?
2. Is Paul commanding Timothy to command other believers?
3. Is John saying that we should follow the commands of Jesus?
4. What does John say about those who say they know Jesus but don’t follow his commandments?
5. Did the Holy Spirit inspire the above verses of the Bible?
6. Which do you think it is--did Paul lie or did the Holy Spirit give us at least one command?

Why don't you want to answer any of those?

 

[Robert Pate]

On the contrary, I have given much that agrees with this, but you have so far ignored it.


Who was Jesus talking to and what was the result? He was talking to the disciples and the result was Scripture. As I have stated previously, if this was always the case, all the time, for everyone, we could just throw out the Bible.

The interesting thing is, you're taking that statement as a rule for Christians while denying there are rules for Christians.


Do you agree with the following verses?

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. (ESV)

If the Spirit of Truth alone "will guide us into all truth" (properly all "the" truth; there is a difference), then Paul is once again lying, is he not?


Yes, and mainly through Scripture. That is rather the whole point of Scripture.


So, "God's messages to humanity" aren't how he "communicates directly to us"? Then what would be the point of even providing the Bible, why not just "communicate directly with us?

You have actually put the cart before the horse. The Bible is God's direct revelation to us and it is the Holy Spirit that aids us both in understanding it and in doing what is asked and commanded of us.


Is that so?


Of course you won't, because the answers to those questions completely undermine your position.


And, yet, as I have given, yet again, there are numerous rules and commands for believers to follow.

That is now at least six important, but simple, questions relevant to the discussion, showing significant contradictions and problems with your position, that you have ignored:

1. Is Paul writing commands for believers in the above?
2. Is Paul commanding Timothy to command other believers?
3. Is John saying that we should follow the commands of Jesus?
4. What does John say about those who say they know Jesus but don’t follow his commandments?
5. Did the Holy Spirit inspire the above verses of the Bible?
6. Which do you think it is--did Paul lie or did the Holy Spirit give us at least one command?

Why don't you want to answer any of those?

There are no laws, rules or commandments for those that are "In Christ". If you need laws, rules or commandments it is because you are unlawful and disobedient, 1 Timothy 1:9.

 

[Free]

There are no laws, rules or commandments for those that are "In Christ". If you need laws, rules or commandments it is because you are unlawful and disobedient, 1 Timothy 1:9.

Why do you keep repeating the same fallacious argument, while ignoring the context of the very verses you quote, and continue to ignore my simple questions and the points I am making?

For example, this is not the first time you have not only used that verse to fallaciously equate the law with rules and commands for believers, but have taken it out of context, ignoring what is said twice in the verses just preceding it:

1Ti 1:3 As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus so that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine,
1Ti 1:4 nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith.
1Ti 1:5 The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. (ESV)

And again in a verse that follows:

1Ti 1:18 This charge I entrust to you, Timothy, my child, in accordance with the prophecies previously made about you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, (ESV)

To “charge” is to command. Paul is very clearly commanding Timothy to command other believers what to believe and teach. And those are only three of numerous verses throughout the NT that contain rules and commands for believers, as I have repeatedly shown.

Do you agree that Paul is commanding Timothy to command other believers? If not, why not?

 

[Robert Pate]

Why do you keep repeating the same fallacious argument, while ignoring the context of the very verses you quote, and continue to ignore my simple questions and the points I am making?

For example, this is not the first time you have not only used that verse to fallaciously equate the law with rules and commands for believers, but have taken it out of context, ignoring what is said twice in the verses just preceding it:

1Ti 1:3 As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus so that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine,
1Ti 1:4 nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith.
1Ti 1:5 The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. (ESV)

And again in a verse that follows:

1Ti 1:18 This charge I entrust to you, Timothy, my child, in accordance with the prophecies previously made about you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, (ESV)

To “charge” is to command. Paul is very clearly commanding Timothy to command other believers what to believe and teach. And those are only three of numerous verses throughout the NT that contain rules and commands for believers, as I have repeatedly shown.

Do you agree that Paul is commanding Timothy to command other believers? If not, why not?

Paul preached the Gospel as well as the law. There were many unbelievers in Paul's congregation that needed to hear the law, 1 Timothy 1:9. The law is our schoolmaster that brings us to Christ, Galatians 3:23-24.

Born again, Gospel believing Christians are not Pharisees that need the law. They are Spirit led children of God.

 

[jaybo]

On the contrary, I have given much that agrees with this, but you have so far ignored it.


Who was Jesus talking to and what was the result? He was talking to the disciples and the result was Scripture. As I have stated previously, if this was always the case, all the time, for everyone, we could just throw out the Bible.

The interesting thing is, you're taking that statement as a rule for Christians while denying there are rules for Christians.


Do you agree with the following verses?

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. (ESV)

If the Spirit of Truth alone "will guide us into all truth" (properly all "the" truth; there is a difference), then Paul is once again lying, is he not?


Yes, and mainly through Scripture. That is rather the whole point of Scripture.


So, "God's messages to humanity" aren't how he "communicates directly to us"? Then what would be the point of even providing the Bible, why not just "communicate directly with us?

You have actually put the cart before the horse. The Bible is God's direct revelation to us and it is the Holy Spirit that aids us both in understanding it and in doing what is asked and commanded of us.


Is that so?


Of course you won't, because the answers to those questions completely undermine your position.


And, yet, as I have given, yet again, there are numerous rules and commands for believers to follow.

That is now at least six important, but simple, questions relevant to the discussion, showing significant contradictions and problems with your position, that you have ignored:

1. Is Paul writing commands for believers in the above?
2. Is Paul commanding Timothy to command other believers?
3. Is John saying that we should follow the commands of Jesus?
4. What does John say about those who say they know Jesus but don’t follow his commandments?
5. Did the Holy Spirit inspire the above verses of the Bible?
6. Which do you think it is--did Paul lie or did the Holy Spirit give us at least one command?

Why don't you want to answer any of those?

First of all, I want to thank you for discussing the various points and not making a personal attack!

a) I wrote: Jesus said, "When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come." John 16:13

You wrote: Who was Jesus talking to and what was the result? He was talking to the disciples and the result was Scripture. As I have stated previously, if this was always the case, all the time, for everyone, we could just throw out the Bible.

The interesting thing is, you're taking that statement as a rule for Christians while denying there are rules for Christians.

My response: saying the result is Scripture has no basis. 1) Not all the disciples wrote Scripture and 2) Paul, who was clearly the primary author of the New Testament, was not present. 3) I am not taking that as a "rule" for Christians. There is a difference between a declarative statement of fact and a rule or command. 4) Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would be our guide, not our ruler. Rulers issues orders and commands. Guides do not. They lead.

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You wrote "Do you agree with the following verses?

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. (ESV)

If the Spirit of Truth alone "will guide us into all truth" (properly all "the" truth; there is a difference), then Paul is once again lying, is he not?"

My response: teaching, reproof, correction, and training in righteousness are what the Bible and spiritual leaders do. Notice that there is no mention of commanding and ordering. None. The man of God will be equipped for every good work. He (and she) will not be following orders.

And the Bible is not a person, so this is not referring to Scripture.

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You wrote, "So, "God's messages to humanity" aren't how he "communicates directly to us"? Then what would be the point of even providing the Bible, why not just "communicate directly with us?"

The Bible has been provided to us as God's written message to us. Of course, it goes without saying that if you're illiterate the Bible is of no use to you. As I have said before, most people that lived during the time that Scripture was written were illiterate and that was the case for many centuries afterward. How did Christianity and Judaism survive those centuries if people didn't own and read Bibles? Christians were taught, Jews were commanded.

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You wrote: So, "God's messages to humanity" aren't how he "communicates directly to us"? Then what would be the point of even providing the Bible, why not just "communicate directly with us?

Why can't it be both? We have the written word and the Holy Spirit. We are communicating on this form through written messages. Does that preclude our speaking directly with each other? Of course not.

Do you actually think that God can communicate with us only through His written word???

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You wrote: "The Bible is God's direct revelation to us and it is the Holy Spirit that aids us both in understanding it and in doing what is asked and commanded of us." You're partially right. The Bible is one way of God's communicating with us -- if we're literate. And the Holy Spirit does aid us in understanding it and "guiding us into all truth". If you think that the Bible is nothing but a book of commands, you have missed much of what it says. For example, read the parable of the sower. Luke 8:4-8, "When a large crowd was gathering, as people were coming to him from town after town, he said in a parable: “A sower went out to sow his seed, and as he sowed some fell on a path and was trampled on, and the birds of the air ate it up. Some fell on rock, and as it grew up it withered for lack of moisture. Some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew with it and choked it. Some fell into good soil, and when it grew it produced a hundredfold.” As he said this, he called out, “If you have ears to hear, then hear!” Where is the command in this? Why didn't Jesus tell the heaerrs directly what they should do? Because He wanted people to figure it out for themselves. This is the way people were taught (not commanded!) throughout. the Bible.

 

[jaybo]

continuing on...

I will not respond to your loaded questions. Anyone can pick out isolated parts of Scripture to "prove" their doctrine. It's called eisegesis. You have in your mind that the Bible is all about commands, orders, authority, etc. so you find sections that bolster your claim. There is a major difference between being commanded and being led. It is the essential difference between the Old Covenant -- being commanded by the law -- and the New Covenant -- being guided by the Holy Spirit. Again, why did Jesus teach in parables? Why didn't He just issue a set of commands for people to follow? Why did He say that we would be sent the Holy Spirit, who would guide us into all truth?

Why did Paul say that the law -- a set of commands -- kills but the Spirit gives life?

And anticipating your response that this was meant for just the apostles, what other parts of the Bible are written for us?

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2 Corinthians 3 (with my emphases)...

Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Surely we do not need, as some do, letters of recommendation to you or from you, do we? You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by all, and you show that you are a letter of Christ, prepared by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets that are human hearts.

Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God. Not that we are qualified of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our qualification is from God, who has made us qualified to be ministers of a new covenant, not of letter but of spirit, for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Now if the ministry of death, chiseled in letters on stone tablets, came in glory so that the people of Israel could not gaze at Moses’s face because of the glory of his face, a glory now set aside, how much more will the ministry of the Spirit come in glory? [Here is the clear difference between the written commands and the guidance of the Holy Spirit] For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, much more does the ministry of justification abound in glory! Indeed, what once had glory has in this respect lost its glory because of the greater glory, for if what was set aside [the OT commands] came through glory, much more has the permanent [guidance by the Holy Spirit] come in glory!

Since, then, we have such a hope, we act with complete frankness, not like Moses, who put a veil over his face to keep the people of Israel from gazing at the end of the glory that was being set aside. But their minds were hardened. Indeed, to this very day, when they hear the reading of the old covenant, the same veil is still there; it is not unveiled since in Christ it [the OT set of commands] is set aside. Indeed, to this very day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their minds, but when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. [Freedom from what? Being led by laws and commandments!] And all of us, with unveiled faces, seeing the glory of the Lord as though reflected in a mirror, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another, for this comes from the Lord, the Spirit."

 

[jaybo]

Paul preached the Gospel as well as the law. There were many unbelievers in Paul's congregation that needed to hear the law, 1 Timothy 1:9. The law is our schoolmaster that brings us to Christ, Galatians 3:23-24.

Born again, Gospel believing Christians are not Pharisees that need the law. They are Spirit led children of God.

Great post!

 

[Free]

There were many unbelievers in Paul's congregation that needed to hear the law, 1 Timothy 1:9.

That is reading into the text something that isn’t there and begs the question.

Born again, Gospel believing Christians are not Pharisees that need the law.

Again, the fallacy of equivocation.

They are Spirit led children of God.

And this also begs the question. "Spirit led children of God" believe and follow all that Bible says is for believers, including the numerous rules and commands that Paul and John give to believers.

1Co 14:37 If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord.
1Co 14:38 If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized. (ESV)

Do you think you're spiritual? Do you acknowledge that Paul wrote rules and commands for proper Christian behaviour in the church at Corinth?

1Jn 2:3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, (ESV)

Would you agree that John believes that it is very important for believers to "keep his commandments"?

1Jn 3:22 and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.
1Jn 3:24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us. (ESV)

Do you agree with with John that believers are to keep God's commandments? What is the opposite of "Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him"? That is, what would it mean for a believer to not keep his commandments?

1Jn 4:21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother. (ESV)

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. (ESV)

Do you agree with John that those who claim to love God "keep his commandments"?

 

[jaybo]

There is a fundamental difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant...

The Old Covenant is conditional on obeying the law. The New Covenant is unconditional.

Christians are in Christ. We are the body, He is the head. The body is not commanded by the head, they are one with it.

New Christians need instructions by teachers, but teachers are not rulers. They teach and guide, so that those who are guided by the Holy Spirit will be able to understand God's will for them. As Christians mature, they are able to better understand the guiding principles of their new faith. Hebrews 5:11-14, "About this we have much to say that is hard to explain, since you have become sluggish in hearing. For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic elements of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, for everyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is unskilled in the word of righteousness. But solid food is for the mature, for those whose faculties have been trained by practice to distinguish good from evil."

Notice particularly the last sentence. The author is not saying that the mature have learned to obey orders. He is saying that the mature have learned to distinguish good from evil, and thereby be self-governing. Children learn to obey their parents, but they are expected to mature and become self-governing adults.

Anyone who claims that the New Covenant is just another set of laws, rules, and commandments to be followed clearly does not understand the New Covenant.

 

[Free]

First of all, I want to thank you for discussing the various points and not making a personal attack!

I haven't said anything different and didn't make a person attack before.

a) I wrote: Jesus said, "When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come." John 16:13

You wrote: Who was Jesus talking to and what was the result? He was talking to the disciples and the result was Scripture. As I have stated previously, if this was always the case, all the time, for everyone, we could just throw out the Bible.

The interesting thing is, you're taking that statement as a rule for Christians while denying there are rules for Christians.

My response: saying the result is Scripture has no basis. 1) Not all the disciples wrote Scripture and 2) Paul, who was clearly the primary author of the New Testament, was not present.

Neither of those things matter. Who was Jesus talking to in John 16:13? The twelve. And they (one of whom would be replaced) were responsible for setting up his church in various geographical areas, along with Paul who received his own particular commission directly from Christ. The Holy Spirit inspired them along the way to address issues and concerns in belief and behaviour by writing letters, resulting in the NT. That is why the NT is quite full of rules and commands for proper Christian belief and behaviour, and none of those issues have gone away down through the millennia.

Looking at the context, which we should always do:

Joh 16:12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
Joh 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
Joh 16:14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
Joh 16:15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you. (ESV)

The whole point in verse 13 comes from verse 12. Jesus is not giving a blanket statement for all believers, everywhere, in all times. He clearly says that there is more that the 12 needed to know but they weren't ready for it all, so the Holy Spirit would guide them into the truth about it all when he came. That isn't to say that the Holy Spirit doesn't help us to understand what is written in the Bible, because he does.

Your position is based on taking verse 13 out of context.

3) I am not taking that as a "rule" for Christians. There is a difference between a declarative statement of fact and a rule or command.

But you are using it as a rule to override, without basis for doing so, all the rules and commands that Paul and John write for believers to follow. You are using it to say that believers are only to follow the Holy Spirit (making the Bible pointless)--that is using it as a rule.

4) Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would be our guide, not our ruler. Rulers issues orders and commands. Guides do not. They lead.

Act 8:29 And the Spirit said to Philip, “Go over and join this chariot.”

Act 11:12 And the Spirit told me to go with them, making no distinction. These six brothers also accompanied me, and we entered the man's house.

Act 13:2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”

Act 16:6 And they went through the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia.
Act 16:7 And when they had come up to Mysia, they attempted to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus did not allow them.

It certainly looks like the Spirit issues orders and commands.

You wrote "Do you agree with the following verses?

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. (ESV)

If the Spirit of Truth alone "will guide us into all truth" (properly all "the" truth; there is a difference), then Paul is once again lying, is he not?"

My response: teaching, reproof, correction, and training in righteousness are what the Bible and spiritual leaders do. Notice that there is no mention of commanding and ordering. None. The man of God will be equipped for every good work. He (and she) will not be following orders.

Firstly, you missed the point entirely. If "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness," then it necessarily follows that Christians don't understand some things and get things wrong, needing to be taught and corrected. It is in this way " that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."

Secondly, notice what Paul doesn't say. He doesn't say that the Holy Spirit is "profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness." Why do you think the Holy Spirit himself gives teaching as gift to some in the church?

1Co 12:28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. (ESV)

That's a useless gift if all we need is the Holy Spirit.

Thirdly, if all we need is the Holy Spirit, as you claim, then these two verses are teaching error.

And the Bible is not a person, so this is not referring to Scripture.

What is not referring to Scripture?

You wrote, "So, "God's messages to humanity" aren't how he "communicates directly to us"? Then what would be the point of even providing the Bible, why not just "communicate directly with us?"

The Bible has been provided to us as God's written message to us. Of course, it goes without saying that if you're illiterate the Bible is of no use to you. As I have said before, most people that lived during the time that Scripture was written were illiterate and that was the case for many centuries afterward. How did Christianity and Judaism survive those centuries if people didn't own and read Bibles? Christians were taught, Jews were commanded.

You didn't answer my questions. If being led by the Holy Spirit is all we need to be guided into all the truth, then the Bible is pointless.

Why can't it be both? We have the written word and the Holy Spirit.

Not only have I not said otherwise, that is precisely my point. The Bible is God's revelation of himself to us and also contains rules and commands for believers to follow. The Holy Spirit gifts some in the church to be teachers, so that we can become "complete, equipped for every good work," as well as helps us both in our understanding of what is expected of us and to live it out.

Do you actually think that God can communicate with us only through His written word???

No, but that is by far the primary way, since it contains all we need for salvation--justification and sanctification.

You wrote: "The Bible is God's direct revelation to us and it is the Holy Spirit that aids us both in understanding it and in doing what is asked and commanded of us." You're partially right. The Bible is one way of God's communicating with us -- if we're literate.

Literacy doesn't factor in. That is what teachers are for.

If you think that the Bible is nothing but a book of commands, you have missed much of what it says.

No, I do not think that. Nowhere have I even implied that.

For example, read the parable of the sower. Luke 8:4-8, "When a large crowd was gathering, as people were coming to him from town after town, he said in a parable: “A sower went out to sow his seed, and as he sowed some fell on a path and was trampled on, and the birds of the air ate it up. Some fell on rock, and as it grew up it withered for lack of moisture. Some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew with it and choked it. Some fell into good soil, and when it grew it produced a hundredfold.” As he said this, he called out, “If you have ears to hear, then hear!” Where is the command in this? Why didn't Jesus tell the heaerrs directly what they should do? Because He wanted people to figure it out for themselves. This is the way people were taught (not commanded!) throughout. the Bible.

Well, no. The meaning of the parables were largely hidden from people. And, while we should try and understand the Bible on our own, we are to never ignore what others say about it, hence the need for teachers.

 

[Iconoclast]

I am not going to reply to all of this, but I will reply to one egregious statement that you made: "The Holy Spirit speaks to us mainly through Scripture, including all the rules and commands, to guide us in how to live."

There is nothing in Scripture that agrees with this. Jesus said, "When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come." John 16:13 Notice that this does not say command you!

The Spirit of Truth has already come and He (not the written word) will speak to us and guide us into all truth. And this was spoken by Jesus to a society that was largely illiterate, so it's clear that the Holy Spirit speaks directly to all people, whether or not they are a) literate and b) own a Bible. The Bible may be an aid to understanding God's messages to humanity, but it is the living God who communicates directly to us.

Many people do not own a Bible, yet that doesn't hinder them from believing what God says directly to them.

And I won't even address your emphasis on rules and commands., except for this: "For freedom Christ has set us free. Stand firm, therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery." Galatians 5:1 (referring to written commands and rules)

Written commands and rules are relevant to the Old Covenant, but not to the New Covenant.

And this time, so if you can address the subject and refrain from personal attacks.

That promise was to the Apostles only, not you, not me. You are NOT GUIDED INTO ALL TRUTH. Any truth you do welcome does come by the Spirit.

 

[jaybo]

I haven't said anything different and didn't make a person attack before.


Neither of those things matter. Who was Jesus talking to in John 16:13? The twelve. And they (one of whom would be replaced) were responsible for setting up his church in various geographical areas, along with Paul who received his own particular commission directly from Christ. The Holy Spirit inspired them along the way to address issues and concerns in belief and behaviour by writing letters, resulting in the NT. That is why the NT is quite full of rules and commands for proper Christian belief and behaviour, and none of those issues have gone away down through the millennia.

Looking at the context, which we should always do:

Joh 16:12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
Joh 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
Joh 16:14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
Joh 16:15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you. (ESV)

The whole point in verse 13 comes from verse 12. Jesus is not giving a blanket statement for all believers, everywhere, in all times. He clearly says that there is more that the 12 needed to know but they weren't ready for it all, so the Holy Spirit would guide them into the truth about it all when he came. That isn't to say that the Holy Spirit doesn't help us to understand what is written in the Bible, because he does.

Your position is based on taking verse 13 out of context.


But you are using it as a rule to override, without basis for doing so, all the rules and commands that Paul and John write for believers to follow. You are using it to say that believers are only to follow the Holy Spirit (making the Bible pointless)--that is using it as a rule.


Act 8:29 And the Spirit said to Philip, “Go over and join this chariot.”

Act 11:12 And the Spirit told me to go with them, making no distinction. These six brothers also accompanied me, and we entered the man's house.

Act 13:2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”

Act 16:6 And they went through the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia.
Act 16:7 And when they had come up to Mysia, they attempted to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus did not allow them.

It certainly looks like the Spirit issues orders and commands.


Firstly, you missed the point entirely. If "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness," then it necessarily follows that Christians don't understand some things and get things wrong, needing to be taught and corrected. It is in this way " that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."

Secondly, notice what Paul doesn't say. He doesn't say that the Holy Spirit is "profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness." Why do you think the Holy Spirit himself gives teaching as gift to some in the church?

1Co 12:28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. (ESV)

That's a useless gift if all we need is the Holy Spirit.

Thirdly, if all we need is the Holy Spirit, as you claim, then these two verses are teaching error.


What is not referring to Scripture?


You didn't answer my questions. If being led by the Holy Spirit is all we need to be guided into all the truth, then the Bible is pointless.


Not only have I not said otherwise, that is precisely my point. The Bible is God's revelation of himself to us and also contains rules and commands for believers to follow. The Holy Spirit gifts some in the church to be teachers, so that we can become "complete, equipped for every good work," as well as helps us both in our understanding of what is expected of us and to live it out.


No, but that is by far the primary way, since it contains all we need for salvation--justification and sanctification.


Literacy doesn't factor in. That is what teachers are for.


No, I do not think that. Nowhere have I even implied that.


Well, no. The meaning of the parables were largely hidden from people. And, while we should try and understand the Bible on our own, we are to never ignore what others say about it, hence the need for teachers.

<IGNORED>

I am done discussing this with you. If you want to obey orders like a soldier instead of being guided as an adult who takes responsibility for their actions, as Scripture clearly directs, then so be it.

YOU ARE CLEARLY WRONG!

 

[jaybo]

That promise was to the Apostles only, not you, not me. You are NOT GUIDED INTO ALL TRUTH. Any truth you do welcome does come by the Spirit.

So which other parts of the Bible aren't written for us? As far as I know, none of the people written/spoken to in the Bible are alive (on Earth) today, so according to you, we should just ignore everything that is written (except for some of Revelation), correct?

 

[Free]

<IGNORED>

I am done discussing this with you. If you want to obey orders like a soldier instead of being guided as an adult who takes responsibility for their actions, as Scripture clearly directs, then so be it.

Again, a false dichotomy, and an incorrect, worldly, self-centered idea (that we are "self-governing," as you put it in your other post; as though we are completely autonomous). As for being soldiers and taking orders:

Rom 13:12 The night is far gone; the day is at hand. So then let us cast off the works of darkness and put on the armor of light.

Eph 6:10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might.
Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil.
Eph 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.
Eph 6:13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm.
Eph 6:14 Stand therefore, having fastened on the belt of truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness,
Eph 6:15 and, as shoes for your feet, having put on the readiness given by the gospel of peace.
Eph 6:16 In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one;
Eph 6:17 and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God,

2Th 3:14 If anyone does not obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed.

2Ti 2:3 Share in suffering as a good soldier of Christ Jesus.
2Ti 2:4 No soldier gets entangled in civilian pursuits, since his aim is to please the one who enlisted him.

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,

Heb 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

(All ESV.)

Again, it seems that Paul disagrees with you. We are soldiers and we are to obey and make it our aim to please God. That is rather the whole point of the inspired rules and commands for believers throughout the NT. We obey if we truly love him, as John clearly states, and our obedience leads to sanctification.

YOU ARE CLEARLY WRONG!

That is quite the claim considering you have ignored most everything that undermines your position, and when you have addressed a few things, I have shown how you have taken them out of context. There are many questions left unanswered and many arguments and rebuttals left unaddressed.

 

[GodsGrace]

Christians are NOT Pharisees. They are born again, Spirit led children of God. We know from the time that we are little children what the rules are, God gave us a conscience. Do you really need to be told to love others? Do you really need to be told not to sin against your neighbor? If you do, then like Paul said, you need laws, rules and commandments because you are unlawful and disobedient.

I see many holes in your statement above.
Here are some:

1. Children do not know what the rules are. They have to be taught what the rules are.
Have you ever met a child that was just allowed to grow without being trained in how to behave?
I leave that to your imagination.

2. Our conscience is worthless - WORTHLESS - if not disciplined by the teachings of Jesus and led by the Holy Spirit. EVEN THEN we may not listen to it at all times. Do you really believe everyone can trust their conscience? Need some examples?

3. Yes. We need to be told to love others. It took me a long time after becoming born again to learn and understand that I had to forgive and to learn how to do it. Fortunate are those that need to learn nothing.

4. We sin against our neighbor if we just think badly of them...as per Jesus in Matthew 5. Bad thoughts are a sin just as much as breaking a commandment is a sin.

Maybe I need laws, rules and commandments,
but You make learning Christianity too easy.
I read on this forum about too many persons that are Christian and battle with their sins every day.
Maybe you don't.

 

[GodsGrace]

God has sent Christians the Holy Spirit to be our guide -- our internal guide. We do not have to "know the rules", which are external and don't cover many facets of modern life. As I have pointed out elsewhere, the Bible says nothing about driving the speed limit, watching too much and/or the wrong kind of TV, etc.

If we don't have to know the rules, WHY does Jesus and Paul and the other writers spend so much time telling us about them? Why do they spend so much of their preaching time to telling us how to behave as Chrisitians?
Shouldn't the new Christians just have known automatically how to behave in their life?

Are you and the other member just keep saying that we're not pharisees,
or are you going to answer the above question?

BTW, if breaking the speed limit is a sin, I'm headed in the elevator going down.

 

[Free]

BTW, if breaking the speed limit is a sin, I'm headed in the elevator going down.

You and me both.