Man Conceived Religions

[Robert Pate]

Case in point. Yet, again, using the fallacy of equivocation. Your position is based on erroneous reasoning. Therefore, it can, and should, be rejected.

My position is based upon New Covenant theology that you don't know anything about.

 

[Free]

My position is based upon New Covenant theology

It's based partially on it. You're taking one part to an extreme while ignoring much of what the NT states.

that you don't know anything about.

Please don't violate the ToS again.

 

[jaybo]

There is no insult on my part. Simply repeating back to someone a statement they made is insulting and lacking in maturity, and it wasn't even addressed to you.


You are free to disagree, of course, but you have neither shown how anything I have posted is erroneous nor addressed most of what I have said, even ignoring answer many simple questions.


It seems that you just don't want to answer simple questions that lead to obvious conclusions, just like the one you ignored above:

Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” (ESV)

Do you agree or disagree that believers are to follow Jesus's commands here?


I want to follow all that God commands believers to believe and do in Scripture. That is rather one of the main points of why we have the Bible.


Which shows that you haven't understood my arguments at all then.


So am I.

"it wasn't even addressed to you." See post #137.

EDITED BY STAFF


God gave specific instructions to the apostles, just as Jesus gave instructions to His disciples. For example, Mark 14:12-14, "On the first day of Unleavened Bread, when the Passover lamb is sacrificed, his disciples said to him, “Where do you want us to go and make the preparations for you to eat the Passover?” So he sent two of his disciples, saying to them, “Go into the city, and a man carrying a jar of water will meet you; follow him, 14 and wherever he enters, say to the owner of the house, ‘The Teacher asks: Where is my guest room where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?’ " and Luke 9:13-14, "But he said to them, “You give them something to eat.” They said, “We have no more than five loaves and two fish—unless we are to go and buy food for all these people.” For there were about five thousand men. And he said to his disciples, “Have them sit down in groups of about fifty each.”

The Bible is full of instructions to people. So what? That doesn't mean that Christians are unable to operate without specific orders. Your argument simply has no merit.

 

[jaybo]

Regarding following orders...

Galatians 5:1, "For freedom Christ has set us free. Stand firm, therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery."
Galatians 5:13, "For you were called to freedom, brothers and sisters, only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for self-indulgence, but through love become enslaved to one another."
1 Peter 2:16, "As servants of God, live as free people, yet do not use your freedom as a pretext for evil."
1 Corinthians 10:29, "For why should my freedom be subject to the judgment of someone else’s conscience?"

 

[Free]

"it wasn't even addressed to you." See post #137.

You completely missed my point. You were responding to something I said to someone else with your mimicking response.

And again you continue with the ad hominem tactics: "It seems that you just don't want to answer simple questions that lead to obvious conclusions, just like the one you ignored above" It is a clear sign that you have no rebuttal to what I have said, so you resort to personal attacks. Very sad.

No, there is no ad hominem. I suggest you search what an ad hominem argument is. Pointing out that you have ignored many questions and numerous other arguments, is not an ad hominem, and neither is pointing out that that suggests you do that to avoid obvious conclusions.

And I have rebutted everything necessary to your position, which is quite the opposite of what you have done.

God gave specific instructions to the apostles, just as Jesus gave instructions to His disciples. For example, Mark 14:12-14, "On the first day of Unleavened Bread, when the Passover lamb is sacrificed, his disciples said to him, “Where do you want us to go and make the preparations for you to eat the Passover?” So he sent two of his disciples, saying to them, “Go into the city, and a man carrying a jar of water will meet you; follow him, 14 and wherever he enters, say to the owner of the house, ‘The Teacher asks: Where is my guest room where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?’ " and Luke 9:13-14, "But he said to them, “You give them something to eat.” They said, “We have no more than five loaves and two fish—unless we are to go and buy food for all these people.” For there were about five thousand men. And he said to his disciples, “Have them sit down in groups of about fifty each.”

The Bible is full of instructions to people. So what?

Yes, rules and commands for believers to follow, like the following:

Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” (ESV)

Do you agree or disagree that believers are to follow Jesus's commands here?

That doesn't mean that Christians are unable to operate without specific orders. Your argument simply has no merit.

That isn't an argument I made; that's a straw man.

 

[Robert Pate]

Regarding following orders...

Galatians 5:1, "For freedom Christ has set us free. Stand firm, therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery."
Galatians 5:13, "For you were called to freedom, brothers and sisters, only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for self-indulgence, but through love become enslaved to one another."
1 Peter 2:16, "As servants of God, live as free people, yet do not use your freedom as a pretext for evil."
1 Corinthians 10:29, "For why should my freedom be subject to the judgment of someone else’s conscience?"

Right.

God never intended for his people to live by laws, rules or religion. Obedience should always be motivated by love. A good Son does not need rules, laws or religion he knows what is required of him and lives accordingly. He would never do anything to shame his father because he loves his Father.

 

[Free]

Regarding following orders...

Galatians 5:1, "For freedom Christ has set us free. Stand firm, therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery."
Galatians 5:13, "For you were called to freedom, brothers and sisters, only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for self-indulgence, but through love become enslaved to one another."
1 Peter 2:16, "As servants of God, live as free people, yet do not use your freedom as a pretext for evil."
1 Corinthians 10:29, "For why should my freedom be subject to the judgment of someone else’s conscience?"

EDITED BY STAFF

Galatians 5:1, "For freedom Christ has set us free. Stand firm, therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery."
Galatians 5:13, "For you were called to freedom, brothers and sisters, only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for self-indulgence, but through love become enslaved to one another."
1 Peter 2:16, "As servants of God, live as free people, yet do not use your freedom as a pretext for evil."

Four commands in three verses. This suggests that they don't support your position.

1 Corinthians 10:29, "For why should my freedom be subject to the judgment of someone else’s conscience?"

This one simply has no bearing on the matter.

 

[Free]

God never intended for his people to live by laws, rules or religion.

And we won't, once Christ returns and heaven comes.

Obedience should always be motivated by love.

Of course.

A good Son does not need rules, laws or religion he knows what is required of him and lives accordingly. He would never do anything to shame his father because he loves his Father.

If you're talking of the Son of God, yes, but you are not a perfectly good son, nor am I, nor is any believer a perfectly good child of God.

 

[Robert Pate]

And we won't, once Christ returns and heaven comes.


Of course.


If you're talking of the Son of God, yes, but you are not a perfectly good son, nor am I, nor is any believer a perfectly good child of God.

The good son is a Christian. Christians are spiritually perfect and complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10. Physically they are sinners.

 

[Free]

The good son is a Christian. Christians are spiritually perfect and complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10. Physically they are sinners.

Christians, even mature ones, still sin and get things wrong, even very wrong from time to time. That is why rules and commands are always needed, as the NT makes abundantly and unequivocally clear.

 

[jaybo]

Christians, even mature ones, still sin and get things wrong, even very wrong from time to time. That is why rules and commands are always needed, as the NT makes abundantly and unequivocally clear.

Robert Pate is 100% correct when he writes, "Christians are spiritually perfect and complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10.

Rules and commands have no effect on one's behavior, otherwise there is no need for the New Covenant. God gave rules and commands so that people would understand sin, but they have no effect on making them righteous.

You either live by external rules and commands or you live by internal guidance by the Holy Spirit.

If Christians are in Christ -- part of His body -- does Jesus need rules and commands?

 

[Free]

Rules and commands have no effect on one's behavior, otherwise there is no need for the New Covenant. God gave rules and commands so that people would understand sin, but they have no effect on making them righteous.

Rules and commands certainly do have an effect on one's behaviour, or at least they should, if one actually correctly understands and believes that one is to follow them.

You either live by external rules and commands or you live by internal guidance by the Holy Spirit.

False dilemma; it's both. The fact that many Christians, or at least those who claim to be Christian, reject Christian doctrine and conform to worldly thinking, such as that we are to be self-governing or that abortion is okay, is proof that not following rules and commands for believers can lead one far astray. Such things are proof that solely trying to "live by the internal guidance of the Holy Spirit" doesn't work, because it is so subjective and one's own feelings and thoughts are most often what lead, not the Holy Spirit.

Rom 12:2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your minds, so that you may discern what is the will of God—what is good and acceptable and perfect. (ESV)

If Christians are in Christ -- part of His body -- does Jesus need rules and commands?

Not relevant. Christians aren't Jesus.

 

[Robert Pate]

Christians, even mature ones, still sin and get things wrong, even very wrong from time to time. That is why rules and commands are always needed, as the NT makes abundantly and unequivocally clear.

Laws, rules and commandments will cause one to sin more, Romans 7:8-12. We need to be delivered from the law, Romans 7:6.

 

[Free]

Laws, rules and commandments will cause one to sin more, Romans 7:8-12. We need to be delivered from the law, Romans 7:6.

Again, false equivocation. It's unfortunate for you that you can't tell the difference between what is and isn't the law of Moses. The NT is full of rules and commands for believers; if you reject them, you are likely to be led astray.

 

[Free]

I have scripture. You have 0.

You misused Scripture by using the fallacy of equivocation, divorcing it from its context. I have given numerous verses in the past, but you simply ignored them. To say I have 0 is untruthful.

 

[Robert Pate]

You misused Scripture by using the fallacy of equivocation, divorcing it from its context. I have given numerous verses in the past, but you simply ignored them. To say I have 0 is untruthful.

You have an Old Covenant theology of laws, rules and commandments that is under the judgment of God, Galatians 3:10.

 

[Free]

You have an Old Covenant theology of laws, rules and commandments that is under the judgment of God, Galatians 3:10.

Again, false equivocation.

 

[Free]

Once again, I have scripture. You have 0.

You're being very dishonest. Not only are the passages you refer to entirely based on taking them out of context and using fallacious reasoning, here are some of the verses you have so far completely ignored:

Rom 13:1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.
Rom 13:2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval,
Rom 13:4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.
Rom 13:5 Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.
Rom 13:6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing.
Rom 13:7 Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.
...
Rom 13:11 Besides this you know the time, that the hour has come for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed.
Rom 13:12 The night is far gone; the day is at hand. So then let us cast off the works of darkness and put on the armor of light.
Rom 13:13 Let us walk properly as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and sensuality, not in quarreling and jealousy.
Rom 13:14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires.
...
Rom 13:8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
Rom 13:10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

1Pe 3:15 but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,
1Pe 3:16 having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame.

1Co 14:37 If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord.
1Co 14:38 If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.
1Co 14:39 So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.

2Th 3:4 And we have confidence in the Lord about you, that you are doing and will do the things that we command.
2Th 3:5 May the Lord direct your hearts to the love of God and to the steadfastness of Christ.
2Th 3:6 Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.
2Th 3:7 For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us, because we were not idle when we were with you,
2Th 3:8 nor did we eat anyone's bread without paying for it, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you.
2Th 3:9 It was not because we do not have that right, but to give you in ourselves an example to imitate.
2Th 3:10 For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat.
2Th 3:11 For we hear that some among you walk in idleness, not busy at work, but busybodies.
2Th 3:12 Now such persons we command and encourage in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their work quietly and to earn their own living.
2Th 3:13 As for you, brothers, do not grow weary in doing good.
2Th 3:14 If anyone does not obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed.
2Th 3:15 Do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.

1Ti 4:11 Command and teach these things.

1Ti 5:7 Command these things as well, so that they may be without reproach.

1Ti 6:13 I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who in his testimony before Pontius Pilate made the good confession,
1Ti 6:14 to keep the commandment unstained and free from reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,

1Jn 2:3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,
...
1Jn 2:7 Beloved, I am writing you no new commandment, but an old commandment that you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word that you have heard.
1Jn 2:8 At the same time, it is a new commandment that I am writing to you, which is true in him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining.

1Jn 3:22 and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.
1Jn 3:24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.

1Jn 4:20 If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.
1Jn 4:21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

2Jn 1:4 I rejoiced greatly to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as we were commanded by the Father.
2Jn 1:5 And now I ask you, dear lady—not as though I were writing you a new commandment, but the one we have had from the beginning—that we love one another.
2Jn 1:6 And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, so that you should walk in it.

(All ESV.)

You also ignored these questions:

1. Is Paul writing commands for believers in the above?
2. Is Paul commanding Timothy to command other believers?
3. Is John saying that we should follow the commands of Jesus?
4. What does John say about those who say they know Jesus but don’t follow his commandments?

 

[jaybo]

Rules and commands certainly do have an effect on one's behaviour, or at least they should, if one actually correctly understands and believes that one is to follow them.


False dilemma; it's both. The fact that many Christians, or at least those who claim to be Christian, reject Christian doctrine and conform to worldly thinking, such as that we are to be self-governing or that abortion is okay, is proof that not following rules and commands for believers can lead one far astray. Such things are proof that solely trying to "live by the internal guidance of the Holy Spirit" doesn't work, because it is so subjective and one's own feelings and thoughts are most often what lead, not the Holy Spirit.

Rom 12:2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your minds, so that you may discern what is the will of God—what is good and acceptable and perfect. (ESV)


Not relevant. Christians aren't Jesus.

Solely trying to "live by the internal guidance of the Holy Spirit" doesn't work -- for you, perhaps, but it does for others, myself included. Jesus didn't say that the Holy Spirit will lead us into some truth. For those who truly follow the Spirit, there is no need for external rules and commands. Does any Christian need to be told not to kill another person, steal, covet their possessions, etc? If you are guided by the Spirit, or more properly filled with the Spirit, you know how to behave. External rules and commands should not have an effect on one's behavior.

EDITED BY STAFF. PERSONAL REMARK. "The fact that many Christians, or at least those who claim to be Christian, reject Christian doctrine and conform to worldly thinking, such as that we are to be self-governing or that abortion is okay". Many Christians reject Christian doctrine? If they do so, they're not Christians, obviously. a) We are to be governed by the Holy Spirit and respect those God has placed in authority (Romans 13). b) Your condemning those who claim abortion is okay means that you clearly don't understand the issue. And it is a non sequitur.

"To live by the internal guidance of the Holy Spirit" always works. That is why God sent us the Holy Spirit! Did God make a mistake in your opinion? Claiming that it is subjective and that one's own feelings and thoughts are most often what lead, not the Holy Spirit, means that you clearly don't understand it.

I feel sorry for you! You are dependent on external rules and regulations, even though Jesus died to free us from that kind of external control. It bothers me greatly that you don't understand that! You clearly have a heart for God, so what is preventing you from trusting Him in everything that you do?

 

[jaybo]

Galatians 5:16-26, "Live by the Spirit, I say, and do not gratify the desires of the flesh. For what the flesh desires is opposed to the Spirit, and what the Spirit desires is opposed to the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to prevent you from doing what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not subject to the law. Now the works of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, debauchery, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, anger, quarrels, dissensions, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these. I am warning you, as I warned you before: those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

By contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against such things. And those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also be guided by the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, competing against one another, envying one another."​

This shouldn't be so hard to understand if you are led by the Spirit.