A
Alabaster
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Man certainly does have his own predilections! Man is evil also, but Satan is a real entity, and is an enemy of God and His people.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join Hidden in Him and For His Glory for discussions on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/become-a-vessel-of-honor-part-2.112306/
Deavonreye
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Re: Topic #2: Was Satan "a liar from the beginning"?
I would not qualify myself as "evil".
I would not qualify myself as "evil".
A
Alabaster
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Re: Topic #2: Was Satan "a liar from the beginning"?
We are all born evil. No one is exempt from being enslaved by sin until freed by Jesus Christ and taking on His nature.
Jeremiah 17:9
The human heart is the most deceitful of all things,
and desperately wicked.
Who really knows how bad it is?
We are all born evil. No one is exempt from being enslaved by sin until freed by Jesus Christ and taking on His nature.
Jeremiah 17:9
The human heart is the most deceitful of all things,
and desperately wicked.
Who really knows how bad it is?
Deavonreye
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Re: Topic #2: Was Satan "a liar from the beginning"?
Sorry, but Jeremiah is wrong. I'm sorry that he had such a low opinion of his own human race, but his opinion has no value. There is absolutely NO way that every person's heart is "deceitful of ALL things".
And no, we are NOT "born evil". If that's the case, then people are born "guilty of another person's sins", and that is immoral/unethical. And even those who are "freed by Jesus Christ by taking on his nature", they are hardly so, and are just as "enslaved by sin" as anyone else, meaning that they will do things that are wrong on a normal basis as well.
These aren't "blasphemous" statements, just the realistic truth.
Sorry, but Jeremiah is wrong. I'm sorry that he had such a low opinion of his own human race, but his opinion has no value. There is absolutely NO way that every person's heart is "deceitful of ALL things".
And no, we are NOT "born evil". If that's the case, then people are born "guilty of another person's sins", and that is immoral/unethical. And even those who are "freed by Jesus Christ by taking on his nature", they are hardly so, and are just as "enslaved by sin" as anyone else, meaning that they will do things that are wrong on a normal basis as well.
These aren't "blasphemous" statements, just the realistic truth.
- Nov 4, 2004
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As an FYI, I split this from the " Was Satan "a liar from the beginning"?" thread and created it's own.
Deavonreye
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Ha, okay. I was like :o I don't recall posting to that thread!
Thanks, Stovebolts.
Thanks, Stovebolts.
- Nov 4, 2004
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Alabaster,
What if we looked at it this way?
Psalms 139:13-15 (NIV) For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.
My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
Genesis 8:21 The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.
We see above that we are fearfully and wonderfully made, yet the human heart is evil from childhood.
Perhaps the question should be raised... What is evil? May I suggest that evil doesn't always take on the diabolical enemy slinking around in a black trenchcoat, tophat and long slanky legs. How about we look at how the Bible defines evil.
Leviticus 23:22 “‘When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. Leave them for the poor and for the foreigner residing among you. I am the LORD your God.’â€
Evil is when we don't have compassion for others with what God has blessed us with. It is for this very reason that the fulfilment of Deut 28-30 were acted upon as described in Ezekiel 16
“‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen. 51 Samaria did not commit half the sins you did. You have done more detestable things than they, and have made your sisters seem righteous by all these things you have done. 52 Bear your disgrace, for you have furnished some justification for your sisters. Because your sins were more vile than theirs, they appear more righteous than you. So then, be ashamed and bear your disgrace, for you have made your sisters appear righteous.
What if we looked at it this way?
Psalms 139:13-15 (NIV) For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.
My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
Genesis 8:21 The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.
We see above that we are fearfully and wonderfully made, yet the human heart is evil from childhood.
Perhaps the question should be raised... What is evil? May I suggest that evil doesn't always take on the diabolical enemy slinking around in a black trenchcoat, tophat and long slanky legs. How about we look at how the Bible defines evil.
Leviticus 23:22 “‘When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. Leave them for the poor and for the foreigner residing among you. I am the LORD your God.’â€
Evil is when we don't have compassion for others with what God has blessed us with. It is for this very reason that the fulfilment of Deut 28-30 were acted upon as described in Ezekiel 16
“‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen. 51 Samaria did not commit half the sins you did. You have done more detestable things than they, and have made your sisters seem righteous by all these things you have done. 52 Bear your disgrace, for you have furnished some justification for your sisters. Because your sins were more vile than theirs, they appear more righteous than you. So then, be ashamed and bear your disgrace, for you have made your sisters appear righteous.
Drew
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- Jan 24, 2005
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Re: Topic #2: Was Satan "a liar from the beginning"?
This is a bit of an "emperor has no clothes" scenario - we all collaborate in perpetuating a myth that we are essentially good, with the odd flaw that needs to be worked out. I suggest that one would think otherwise if one were present in the death camps in Europe in the early 1940s.
But forget about that "spectacular" stuff. Every day in the wealthy west, people get up, leave their $ 500,000 homes, get into their $ 50,000 BMW cars, and think that they are "all right". Well I doubt it - while people are starving and in want of basic medical care elsewhere in the world, such luxuries are, I suggest, a manifestation of the heartless evil that lies inside man.
To live with these luxuries when they could be transformed into live-giving aid to the poor - if that is not evil, what is?
Perhaps Jeremiah was taking some poetic licence here. But I think that the claim is essentially sound - people do indeed have "evil" simmering away in them. People can dismiss the Bible's claim about this, but the objective evidence is clear - look at all the wars in the 20th century, and not least programmes of genocide. We are so "close" to these things - they are so much a part of our reality - that we have lost the ability to stand back and be appropriately shocked at what an evil creature man actually is.
This is a bit of an "emperor has no clothes" scenario - we all collaborate in perpetuating a myth that we are essentially good, with the odd flaw that needs to be worked out. I suggest that one would think otherwise if one were present in the death camps in Europe in the early 1940s.
But forget about that "spectacular" stuff. Every day in the wealthy west, people get up, leave their $ 500,000 homes, get into their $ 50,000 BMW cars, and think that they are "all right". Well I doubt it - while people are starving and in want of basic medical care elsewhere in the world, such luxuries are, I suggest, a manifestation of the heartless evil that lies inside man.
To live with these luxuries when they could be transformed into live-giving aid to the poor - if that is not evil, what is?
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- Nov 4, 2004
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A bit more on what true evil looks like from a biblical perspective.
Jesus said in Luke 12,
Someone in the crowd said to him, “Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me.â€
14 Jesus replied, “Man, who appointed me a judge or an arbiter between you?†15 Then he said to them, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; life does not consist in an abundance of possessions.â€
16 And he told them this parable: “The ground of a certain rich man yielded an abundant harvest. 17 He thought to himself, ‘What shall I do? I have no place to store my crops.’
18 “Then he said, ‘This is what I’ll do. I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store my surplus grain. 19 And I’ll say to myself, “You have plenty of grain laid up for many years. Take life easy; eat, drink and be merry.â€â€™
20 “But God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?’ 21 “This is how it will be with whoever stores up things or themselves but is not rich toward God.â€
Jesus said in Luke 12,
Someone in the crowd said to him, “Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me.â€
14 Jesus replied, “Man, who appointed me a judge or an arbiter between you?†15 Then he said to them, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; life does not consist in an abundance of possessions.â€
16 And he told them this parable: “The ground of a certain rich man yielded an abundant harvest. 17 He thought to himself, ‘What shall I do? I have no place to store my crops.’
18 “Then he said, ‘This is what I’ll do. I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store my surplus grain. 19 And I’ll say to myself, “You have plenty of grain laid up for many years. Take life easy; eat, drink and be merry.â€â€™
20 “But God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?’ 21 “This is how it will be with whoever stores up things or themselves but is not rich toward God.â€
Deavonreye
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Yes, there have been evil days in the past. Men of all creeds and religions [including christianity] have done great evils. When I watch Gangland, on The History Channel, you can see the worst of mankind. But there is much good in mankind as well. . . . and it transcends religious affiliation. Most people wish goodness upon mankind. They may not always actively work towards it, due to logistists, cost, or whatever, but few look at starving kids in third world countries and laugh at their plight.
But what is evil is usually stated as "that which is not perfect". Of what value is "perfection" anyway? Perfection would be boring. Perfection would be a state of stagnation. Sure, no one can be "perfect", but I will state that those who ARE imperfect are better than just mere perfection because we CAN and often DO rise to the occasion to do what is right.
What's of more value? A being who is all perfect and has no way of NOT being perfect, . . . or a being who strives to be so because they have known what it was to walk in darkness, but pulled themself out of it for goodness sake?
But what is evil is usually stated as "that which is not perfect". Of what value is "perfection" anyway? Perfection would be boring. Perfection would be a state of stagnation. Sure, no one can be "perfect", but I will state that those who ARE imperfect are better than just mere perfection because we CAN and often DO rise to the occasion to do what is right.
What's of more value? A being who is all perfect and has no way of NOT being perfect, . . . or a being who strives to be so because they have known what it was to walk in darkness, but pulled themself out of it for goodness sake?
Elvispelvis
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- Jul 9, 2010
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Deavoneyere said"
Sorry, but Jeremiah is wrong. I'm sorry that he had such a low opinion of his own human race, but his opinion has no value. There is absolutely NO way that every person's heart is "deceitful of ALL things".
Elvispelvis "
Jeremiah is wrong.???
I just love it when christians make statements like Jeremiah is wrong.
I cut and paste things like this for my bible class.
These examples of the lack of understanding, which end up taking such
a ludicrous conclusion.
You are saying,,,,, YHWH's Angels, who forced Jereimiah, ( aka The Bullfrog ) to speak and croak, like an old
man sitting on a log, sounding of to whoever was listening, were incorrect for God wrote the bible.----- hello
A simple study of the OT reveals that JEREmiah did not want to preach but it burned in him until he had to croak.
Try reading every chapter of Jeremiah with history and Hebrew the way it was written, then maybe
you could possibly comment on what Jeremiah went through in his life, I tell my students.
To not believe Jeremiah means you do not agree with Yahshua!!
Mar 7:20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
Mar 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Mar 7:22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
Mar 7:23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
Are you not shocked no mention of Satan by Yahshua he says it comes from within man .
This statement can not be accepted by christians!!
Sorry, but Jeremiah is wrong. I'm sorry that he had such a low opinion of his own human race, but his opinion has no value. There is absolutely NO way that every person's heart is "deceitful of ALL things".
Elvispelvis "
Jeremiah is wrong.???
I just love it when christians make statements like Jeremiah is wrong.
I cut and paste things like this for my bible class.
These examples of the lack of understanding, which end up taking such
a ludicrous conclusion.
You are saying,,,,, YHWH's Angels, who forced Jereimiah, ( aka The Bullfrog ) to speak and croak, like an old
man sitting on a log, sounding of to whoever was listening, were incorrect for God wrote the bible.----- hello
A simple study of the OT reveals that JEREmiah did not want to preach but it burned in him until he had to croak.
Try reading every chapter of Jeremiah with history and Hebrew the way it was written, then maybe
you could possibly comment on what Jeremiah went through in his life, I tell my students.
To not believe Jeremiah means you do not agree with Yahshua!!
Mar 7:20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
Mar 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Mar 7:22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
Mar 7:23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
Are you not shocked no mention of Satan by Yahshua he says it comes from within man .
This statement can not be accepted by christians!!
S
Strangelove
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This is why we need religious affiliation tags next to our usernames.
Deavonreye is NOT a believer.
A
Alabaster
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Re: Topic #2: Was Satan "a liar from the beginning"?
Your 'realistic truth' goes against scripture, and therefore it is false. Jeremiah spoke for God.
We are all born destined for hellfire. Little children don't have to be taught to sin---they just do it naturally. They need a Saviour.
Jesus frees us from the bondage of sin, where we once had to sin without much choice. Yet now in Him, we have a concrete choice to sin or not--that is freedom.
Your 'realistic truth' goes against scripture, and therefore it is false. Jeremiah spoke for God.
We are all born destined for hellfire. Little children don't have to be taught to sin---they just do it naturally. They need a Saviour.
Jesus frees us from the bondage of sin, where we once had to sin without much choice. Yet now in Him, we have a concrete choice to sin or not--that is freedom.
A
Alabaster
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Exactly, and thank you.
Devonreye,
Your argument isn't with us but with God. Take it up with Him. Obviously you have never experienced God coming to you as a conqueror but if you ever do you will know what evil really is and how your heart is filled with it. I pray that He come as a Conquering King because if He ever does He will then come as a comforting Savior.
Your argument isn't with us but with God. Take it up with Him. Obviously you have never experienced God coming to you as a conqueror but if you ever do you will know what evil really is and how your heart is filled with it. I pray that He come as a Conquering King because if He ever does He will then come as a comforting Savior.
Drew
Member
- Jan 24, 2005
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Re: Topic #2: Was Satan "a liar from the beginning"?
You seem to have implicitly invoked the notion that we are deemed "morally culpable" of Adam's sin. I do not believe that the Bible actually teaches this, even though, as you are probably aware, many Chistians do indeed accept this idea.
It is entirely possible that human beings are born with substantially evil inclinations for reasons other than some notion of being imputed moral guilt for someone else's actions.
I do not think this is correct. We can indeed be "born evil" without necessarily being born "guilty of another person's sin".
You seem to have implicitly invoked the notion that we are deemed "morally culpable" of Adam's sin. I do not believe that the Bible actually teaches this, even though, as you are probably aware, many Chistians do indeed accept this idea.
It is entirely possible that human beings are born with substantially evil inclinations for reasons other than some notion of being imputed moral guilt for someone else's actions.
Christ_empowered
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I think its hard for a lot of people to accept that people are evil from the get-go because our society teaches us that the world as a whole and people in general are pretty much good and decent. It takes a sort of inner-revolution of the soul+mind to come to the realization that a) people are pretty nasty and b) I in particular am not only not good, but downright sinful and hell-bound.
I think it takes a lot to come to that realization, which is probably why so many people come to Christ during times of stress and transition; from my personal experience, it sometimes takes a lot of stress and bad things happening to break through the humanistic "man is good" nonsense and get to the truth of the matter.
I think it takes a lot to come to that realization, which is probably why so many people come to Christ during times of stress and transition; from my personal experience, it sometimes takes a lot of stress and bad things happening to break through the humanistic "man is good" nonsense and get to the truth of the matter.
Deavonreye
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If god would actually have a real conversation with me, then I WOULD "take it up with him".
And, no, I haven't experienced "god coming to me as a conqueror", but I did experience god's lack of ability to conquer who was wrong and be on the side of who was right. Know that one first hand.
A
Alabaster
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God doesn't lack any ability to conquer. He has made us more than conquerors. If one doesn't know Him or know who he is in Christ, then he is a sitting duck for trouble.
Romans 8:31-37
What shall we say about such wonderful things as these? If God is for us, who can ever be against us? Since he did not spare even his own Son but gave him up for us all, won’t he also give us everything else? Who dares accuse us whom God has chosen for his own? No one—for God himself has given us right standing with himself. Who then will condemn us? No one—for Christ Jesus died for us and was raised to life for us, and he is sitting in the place of honor at God’s right hand, pleading for us. Can anything ever separate us from Christ’s love? Does it mean he no longer loves us if we have trouble or calamity, or are persecuted, or hungry, or destitute, or in danger, or threatened with death?
(As the Scriptures say, “For your sake we are killed every day; we are being slaughtered like sheep.â€) No, despite all these things, overwhelming victory is ours through Christ, who loved us.
Elvispelvis
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Perhaps you Deavon have never heard of mans inhumanity to man.
It is possible you have never heard of the Dark Ages when they burned men at the stake torturing in God's name.
I suppose you were not told that evil rules this world as we see the history of mankind one of wars, murder , death violence, cruelty, ready to be burned up at ARMAGEDDON at the Judgment Of Christ.
Wheather you believe in JUdgment or not God does not care.
Nuclear war is being prepared before your eyes to burn the earth with fire and Judgment because man is constantly evil before The LORD YHWH !!
Please study the OT it is full of future events.
It is possible you have never heard of the Dark Ages when they burned men at the stake torturing in God's name.
I suppose you were not told that evil rules this world as we see the history of mankind one of wars, murder , death violence, cruelty, ready to be burned up at ARMAGEDDON at the Judgment Of Christ.
Wheather you believe in JUdgment or not God does not care.
Nuclear war is being prepared before your eyes to burn the earth with fire and Judgment because man is constantly evil before The LORD YHWH !!
Please study the OT it is full of future events.
