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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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No answers for problem of evil
- Thread starter OzSpen
- Start date
If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.” Genesis 4:7
Cain still has the ability to choose to do good after the fall.
JLB
This isn't about Calvinism or Arminianism, which I know nothing about so I will not go there. Let me ask you this. Do these scriptures below sound like limited atonement?
Luke 5:31 And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick. 32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
atpollard
Member
Is 1 John 2:2 the only scripture that there is?
atpollard
Member
Previous to the 400 years, there were no Bibles printed in the vernacular language and available to the masses of Christianity to read for themselves. For most of that time, only the elite of the Roman Catholic Church read Latin and had access to the Bible to even ask the question. Those that disagreed with the Official position were burned as heretics. That is not an environment open to honest conversation on the issue.
Unconditional Election as a formal theological dogma was created at Dort as a direct result of the challenge by the Remonstrances that demanded that the Dutch, Danish and German churches change their statements of belief from the long held orthodox views that Jesus died to forgive the sins of the saved to the proposed view of Arminius that Jesus died for the sins of all men without exception.
The view of “Limited Atonement” is the historic, orthodox view dating back to St.Augustine and his battle against the Pelagian heresy.
It was the championing of semi-Pelagianism by the Bishops and Church of Rome (against the other bishops of Africa and Asia) that led to the rise of the RCC’s synergistic “works based salvation” and the modern “free will” Theology. Arminius was attempting to apply semi-Pelagian synergism to the Protestant churches and prompted a Reformed affirmation of orthodox doctrines.
So the term “Limited Atonement” is modern, but the concept is ancient and was traditionally just called “orthodox” theology.
stovebolts
Member
atpollard
Member
All the sick need a physician, but does a physician treat all of the sick, or only those that come to him. Unlimited Atonement says that the Great Physician treated all of the sick and some lived and some died. Limited Atonement says that the Great Physician treated all that came to Him and everyone that He treated lived.
Whosover believeth?
Read the parable of the sower and ask who makes the rocky soil into good soil? Man or God? Synergism or Monergism?
Whoever transforms the soil, deserves the glory.
God gave his created angels and all of us free will to choose to love and worship Him. Without the choice we would be nothing more than programed puppets with no understanding of love within worshiping God as it would only be mechanical as no one could understand what that love for God would be all about. God giving us free will to chose also knew that it could also produce evil within us if we chose to activate that choice. This is why God's plan of salvation through Christ was before the foundation of the world, 1 Corinthians 2:6-10; Ephesians 1:4; 1 Peter 1:18-20.
Free will choice is what caused some of the angels who did not stay within the limits of their proper authority God gave them, but chose to be disobedient to God and left their place where God put them as they are bound until God's judgement, Jude 1:6. Same with Satan as he exercised his free will as he tried to exalt his own throne above God so that he would be in the place of control as he would weaken the nations by deceiving them, Isaiah 14:12-14.
Adam and Eve exercised their free will choice as they chose to disobey God's command not to take from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. They both fell to temptation allowing themselves to be deceived by the serpent Satan was working through instead of believing what God told them.
Evil/wickedness was now introduced into the world as men's hearts grew in wicked desires of the flesh, Galatians 7:19-21, as Satan did cause the nations/people to become weak in the flesh through temptation that leads man away from the face of God.
The answer to the problem of evil that runs rampant in the hearts of men is found in 2 Chronicles 7:14, but not everyone will turn back to God even though He gave us His only begotten Son before the foundation of the world. It's a free will choice to accept Him or reject Him as God will not force anyone, but does call us unto His salvation through Christ who is God's gift of free grace.
Free will choice is what caused some of the angels who did not stay within the limits of their proper authority God gave them, but chose to be disobedient to God and left their place where God put them as they are bound until God's judgement, Jude 1:6. Same with Satan as he exercised his free will as he tried to exalt his own throne above God so that he would be in the place of control as he would weaken the nations by deceiving them, Isaiah 14:12-14.
Adam and Eve exercised their free will choice as they chose to disobey God's command not to take from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. They both fell to temptation allowing themselves to be deceived by the serpent Satan was working through instead of believing what God told them.
Evil/wickedness was now introduced into the world as men's hearts grew in wicked desires of the flesh, Galatians 7:19-21, as Satan did cause the nations/people to become weak in the flesh through temptation that leads man away from the face of God.
The answer to the problem of evil that runs rampant in the hearts of men is found in 2 Chronicles 7:14, but not everyone will turn back to God even though He gave us His only begotten Son before the foundation of the world. It's a free will choice to accept Him or reject Him as God will not force anyone, but does call us unto His salvation through Christ who is God's gift of free grace.
Satan nor his demons are offered salvation,a chance to be forgiven.why is that ?simply,because. God isn't obligated to forgive .
Synergism and Monergism is a debate between the beliefs of Calvinism and Arminianism theology on salvation which I do not care to discuss because God's gift of grace is free to everyone who will accept it. Other words, God's free gift of grace is through that of Christ Jesus being God's plan of salvation before the foundation of the world.
A physician treats all that will come to him. It's the same with Jesus who has made atonement for everyone's sin through the blood sacrifice He made on the cross as His last words were "It is finished", but the only ones who are forgiven are the ones who seek Him with a humbled heart that will accept Him as Lord and Savior. We either believe in whom Jesus said He is and accept Him as Lord and Savior and spend eternal life with Him, or reject Him and bring damnation upon our self.
Whosoever is everyone who chooses to believe in Christ as they pick up their cross to follow Him. None of us can overcome our sin without God's help who has given us the indwelling Holy Spirit that lives in us when we are Spiritually renewed from above, John 3:5-7. The Holy Spirit teaches us how to overcome our sin as He is our teacher and comforter, John 14:26.
This does not mean we will never sin again as we are still mortal and this flesh still corruptible until we are changed when Christ returns, 1 Corinthians 15:51-57. In the meanwhile the flesh will always battle against the Spirit within us as flesh is a hostile enemy against the Spirit as the flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, Romans 8:5-14; Galatians 5:16-18.
It's the Holy Spirit that transforms us into that which is pleasing to God as God gets all the praise and glory for that which He has given us through His mercy and grace.
atp,
That doesn't answer my question about 1 John 2:2. Is 1 John 2:2 in the Bible and what does it mean?
John 3:16-18 (NIV) confirms that the Gospel is for the 'whoever' who believes and is saved or the 'whoever' does not believe and is condemned.
John 3:36 (NIV):
See also 1 Tim 2:3-6; 4:10; Rom 5:6-8; John 12:32, 46-48; and Heb 2:9 for confirmation that Jesus died for all.
Oz
Could you explain this with more detail, thanks.
Satan can't ask God to forgive him,.oddly,at the first sin,by,Adam and eve God foretells of the cross .the seed of both would be at war.
If Satan could be forgiven why didn't God offer it?simply because God choose not to.he planned for us to have the chance ,not any of the angels.
Surely God if he wanted to he would ,remember hell was meant for the fallen angels not man.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
The bible starts with Adam and Eve.
The tree that was in the Garden had knowledge in it which was available to them. It had the knowledge of good and evil. So evil existed BEFORE Eve ate and gave some fruit to Adam also.
Original Sin always existed...it just means the first sin.
What Augustine changed is that he made OS be imputed to every human being...instead it was its EFFECT that we were dealing with before his doctrine. His doctrine, accepted by the church at that time, is what cause the necessity of infants being baptized because they were born imputed with O.S.
No one ever said that God causes suffering...at least I never heard this in any of the videos I posted and I did listen to all of them.
John Lennox explained very well that there is Moral Evil and Natural Evil which the bible does speak of in Romans 8. Why would anything or anyone cause a disaster unless it was imbued with evil? Is an earthquake imbued with good? Is it neutral?
Again, I didn't hear anyone say God causes suffering through a natural disaster.
I'm very satisfied.
I'm not looking for an answer.
I've stated that there is no answer...this means Im not looking for one.
It would be impossible for a fallen angel to be forgiven by God because they are spirit, not flesh and blood. This is why God could not destroy them as a spirit can not die, but those who rebelled against God already have a place prepared for them being the lake of fire for all eternity in God's final judgement.
Another reason God was not obligated to forgive them was because God's plan of salvation was for mankind through Christ even before the foundation of the world. It was not designed for angels as they had no excuse for their rebellion being that they were in the presence of the glory of God unlike humans. This is why Jesus told Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed, John 20:29. Thomas was in the full presence of the glory of Christ as the angels in heaven and then he believed as well as all those in the upper room that day.
As humans in a fallen state as all of us are in the flesh we can only see the glory of the Lord when we confess we are sinners needing and accepting God's free gift of grace through the Spiritual rebirth from above.
wondering,
No, the tree in the Garden did not have knowledge in it. Like the Lord's Supper where the bread and the wine are symbols of the body and blood of Jesus (contra RCC), the tree in Eden was put there as a symbol to test A & E.
They were created by God to obey the laws to obey God but that had not been tested. To test A & E's obedience or disobedience to God, they were tested to determine if they were free moral agents.
This one symbol (tree) in the Garden presented A & E with the opportunity to obey God. Instead, they chose an act of outright rebellion against Him.
There was no evil content in the tree. The tree was an emblem to test the first 2 human beings. The test was basic: Will you choose to obey or disobey God's commands?
This test demonstrated who was Lord of the universe and showed that the first and consequent human beings possessed freedoms - given by God.
I cannot accept your doctrine of Original Sin (OS) as OS always existing. Doesn't that come out of your presupposition that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil had the stuff of evil in it?
Rom 5:12-14, 18 (NIV) contradicts your view:
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned –
13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come....
18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
We don't have to quote Augustine to gain an understanding of OS. Rom 5 clearly teaches that sin (OS) entered the world through the sin of one man and the consequences (death) came to all people.
When was the Law given? At Mt Sinai (see Ex 20). Sin was in the world before then because of Adam's sin.
This one OS by Adam resulted in sin being passed on to the whole human race.
I consider I've been providing answers to your conclusion, 'There is no solution to the problem of evil', but you are not open to consider them.
Oz
Rules God choose to make up.Is God obliged to save ,onlidged meaning he has no,choice.
Before creation was God lonely ?does he need,anyine to love ,to be able to love ,?
Is he lacking anything ?no.he choose to create ,he didn't have too at all.something eternal prior to creation in,the trinity ,it was there forever no time ,no,beginning or end ,how lonely was he?
He simply wasn't .he out of mercy choose to save man ,he choose not to with angels who aren't eternal but a created being Satan isn't older the the trinity .though the bible doesn't say exactly when but no angel has the attribute of eternal existence ,not even dying ,
The idea of destroy both body and spirit must include the power of eternal destruction.while i hold the idea of eternal damnation in a prison of torture ,the word destroy includes both something beyond physical destruction of a body .and must include satan can be destroyed and uncreated.no creating being outside of the trinity is eternal ,undying without said allowance from God.
atpollard
Member
Which is it ... everyone that comes to him, or everyone without exception? Does the blood heal us of sin or does it not.
I honestly don’t care what answer you choose, but you should be consistent with yourself. You are claiming that the Physician healed even those that did not come to him, and they refused to take the medicine (Which is not the same as healing everyone that comes to you.)
atpollard
Member
Sorry, but to directly answer your question about 1 John 2:2 strays too far off topic for my comfort and involves a direct discussion/debate on Calvinism vs Arminianism with full court scripture pong and a discussion of Systematic Theology. While I am not opposed to such a discussion, I believe that directly debating Calvinism vs Arminianism is forbidden by the latest rules of the board. While I will not deny my sotierology for the sake of ecumenicalism, I am trying to respect the rules of the board.
Their house, their rules.