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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Tired of all the political strife and infighting?
Find out how Christians are supposed to act in the following study
https://christianforums.net/threads/charismatic-bible-studies-1-peter-2-11-17.109823/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Obey God or never enter Heaven!
- Thread starter Thankful1
- Start date
Sorry, my misunderstanding, then we are definitely in accord.
How so? Where do we go when we die, then?
First of all to the grave, then at the resurrection we meet Christ in the air, return to earth. After 1000 years the Father moves His throne and the Temple to earth. We don't go there, God comes here.
Drew
Member
Alright, let's talk about John 3:16. The gospel writer asserts that he who believes will be saved. However, that is entirely consistent with the position (expressed by Paul in Romans 2) that final salvation is based on good works. Here is how:
1. At some in life, a person accepts Jesus by faith and faith alone;
2. That person is given the Holy Spirit;
3. The Holy Spirit then transforms the person into one who produces good works;
4. These good works result in salvation at the Romans 2 judgement (you know, the one that many in the reformed tradition simply ignore).
Since the works are produced by the Spirit, and since the Spirit will not fail to produce these works, he who believes will most assuredly be saved, even though that salvation is based on works.
DO NOT TAKE THIS INTO A LAW VERSES GRACE DEBATE PLEASE...
but read this...
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Doing God's commandments entitles one to the tree of life, what is the converse?
Drew
Member
I am quite confident my comments are relevant both to the OP and to the direction the thread has taken.
Besides, I am not talking about "Law", I am talking about good works.
The very title of this thread is "Obey God or never enter Heaven".
I believe my posts are directly addressing this.
Not sure what you mean by converse. But, in any event, I believe this text supports the position that "good works" are indeed required to attain ultimate salvation.
Show me where it says that salvation is entering into the kingdom of God.
Don’t base your hope on an assumption.
Scripture tells us that one who sins will never enter the kingdom of God.
(1 Corinthians 6:9-19) “You know perfectly well that people who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God: people of immoral lives, idolaters, adulterers, catamites, sodomites, thieves, usurers, drunkards, slanders and swindlers will never inherit the kingdom of God.â€
Read what Jesus said one needed to do for the kingdom of God to be with him or her. To be in the kingdom of God one needs to:
(John 14:23) “Jesus replied: Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.â€
You've got this somewhat backwards. First, it is the Holy Spirit that calls us to belief in Jesus Christ as our savior. Second, we repent of our sins and beg forgiveness. Third, we are imparted salvation through grace. Fourth, we do good works as part of our worship of God in thanksgiving for our salvation.
(1 John 3:9) “No one, who has been begotten by God sins; because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.â€
(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s workâ€
(Hebrews 10:26-27) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies.
Your view suggests that no-one will be saved, since everyone is incapable of living a sinless life. Also, to what do you think Jesus was referring when he said, "I go to prepare a place for you."
Drew
Member
To be fair, this text from Paul does not, in my opinion, say "if you commit even oneact of slander" or "if you committed oneact of adultery", you will not inherit life. The text reads more as a statement that if these things become part of a general lifestyle, then, indeed, you will not inherit life.
Drew
Member
You are doing the same thing you did in the other thread. Only this time, I will keep politely calling you on it.
You are simply asserting your position, as if you are "above" having to make an actual case. What you say above is a statement of your position. You need to make an actual case.
As do I. I did the same thing you did - I stated a position. However, I understand that I need to go on to make the case. I get the impression you believe you are under no such obligation.
Now, I have already provided part of the case: the quote from Romans 2. You provided an answer, but one that clearly was not true to what Paul actually wrote. And I pointed this out to you.
The following statement needs to be dealt with. Not reworded to something else and then dealt with. But dealt with as is:
God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
This is not a statement that you get rewards over and above eternal life based on what you have done.
It is a statement that you get eternal life based on what you have done.
If you do not accept this obvious, self-evident truth, we are at an impasse. Why? Because you simply rework clear statements and morph them to your position.
The text is a clear an unambiguous assertion that you get eternal life based on "what you have done". Please do not play the denial game; please deal with the text (or at least argue that it has been improperly translated).
I have already addressed the reference you put here in blue, before. I have supported my position with both John 3:16 and John 10:1-5, and yet you are not even stating where this reference you have is from.
More to the point, everything that Paul says in his letters must be viewed through the lens of Jesus' ministry/teachings. Jesus specifically tells us there is one way to the Father, through Him. You can find this throughout each of the four gospels.
Perhaps I did not make it clear, but I was supporting your position. I simply replied to your quote to keep it on topic.
Let's read the rest of the verse...
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
And where will He be?
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
And where will we be?
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
We do not go there...
Joh 7:34 Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come.
Joh 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
To His twelve Apostles on the night before His crucifixion...
Joh 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.
B
BornAgain
Guest
In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I come again, and will receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Though the Lord was soon to leave them, they were not to be homeless forever; in the Father's house "are many mansions," literally, abiding-places, the home of the faithful for ever. This, was one of the reasons he must leave them, to prepare a place for them in the Father's house and return to heaven. Strange, in the light of the obvious import of this passage that the view occasionally emerges that the "Father's house" is the church, a view for which there is not the slightest support in the passage and is obviously erroneous for the following reasons:
(1) The Father's house then existed; Jesus speaks of it in the present tense; the church had not been established when these words were uttered.
(2) Jesus left the earth to go to the Father's house; one does not have to leave the earth to become a member of the church today since the church is here—not in heaven—and thus available to all who obey the gospel.
(3) The place the Lord went to prepare is where he went when he left the earth; he left the earth to go to his Father's house; but he went to heaven; therefore, his Father's house is in heaven. The church is on earth; the Father's house is in heaven; therefore, the Father's house is not the church.
We learn:
(1) heaven is now in a state of preparation; when the preparatory work is finished, Jesus will return for his own.
(2) Among the blessed ends of this plan is that faithful disciples will be privileged to be with the Lord, in the Father's house, in perfect fellowship and unbroken communion throughout all ages.
Who ever told you that no one could live with out sinning?
John tells us one who is begotten by God will not sin.
Paul tells us that a Christian is dead to sin.
Remember if your teachers about God sinned then you learned about God from the devil.
(1 John 3:9) “No one, who has been begotten by God sins; because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.â€
(Romans 6: 1-2) “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s workâ€
Drew
Member
There is simply too much difference between us in terms of our views about what constitutes proper argumentation. Again, no hard feelings. I may continue to post, but I will no longer be responding to your posts. These things happen, not the end of the world.
You have to take these verses in the context in which they are written. If we abide in Christ we will not sin, but we do not always abide in Christ, which is why he afforded us the gift of forgiveness, predicated on repentance. The key here is that, yes we are saved by faith through Jesus Christ which means that sin no longer has any hold over us, but this does not mean we are incapable of sin.
Drew
Member
Does anyone who believe that "good works" are not required for "entering Heaven" have an explanation for this statement by Paul (from Romans 2)
God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
As a statement rendered in the English language, it is a clear and unambiguous assertion that eternal life is granted according to what we have done.
Why would Paul make such a statement if he did not believe it to be true?
Many evade or ignore this question. Others, intentionally or otherwise, change this text into something else.
Any takers?
God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
As a statement rendered in the English language, it is a clear and unambiguous assertion that eternal life is granted according to what we have done.
Why would Paul make such a statement if he did not believe it to be true?
Many evade or ignore this question. Others, intentionally or otherwise, change this text into something else.
Any takers?