Obey God or never enter Heaven!

[Eugene]

Heb 11:4 Abel is said to be righteous.

Abel is only righteous in Christ; he presented the blood sacrifice, the only sacrifice God has respect unto.

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not (These are all in Christ); but He that is begotten of God (Jesus) keepeth himself (This is His body), and that wicked one (Satan) toucheth him not.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me (All in Christ) I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

 

[Drew]

Good morning,

The title of this thread would have gone over real well with the thief on the cross. Of course, his obedience didn't require any good deeds. Not much you can do while nailed to a cross.

- Davies

Paul says what he says!!! Eternal life is granted according to what we have done. True, the thief did not have time to do a lot of good works. But why do you, apparently, this gives us license to ignore something Paul wrote? Who knows? Since he only had a few hours to lives, perhaps the "threshold" was much lower for this thief.

Please, please, please: Answer this question: What is Paul saying here:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

 

[Knotical]

Paul says what he says!!! Eternal life is granted according to what we have done. True, the thief did not have time to do a lot of good works. But why do you, apparently, this gives us license to ignore something Paul wrote? Who knows? Since he only had a few hours to lives, perhaps the "threshold" was much lower for this thief.

Please, please, please: Answer this question: What is Paul saying here:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Please please please provide the book, chapter, and verse of this reference, then we will be able to look at the context and provide an answer.

 

[Grazer]

Ok found it. It was part of a Q & A session after a talk. The whole talk is brilliant but the bit relevant to this is about 1hr 20mins in

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

 

[Drew]

Theologian NT Wright on this issue (I added emphasis):

The third point is remarkably controversial, seeing how well founded it is at several points in Paul. Indeed, listening to yesterday’s papers, it seems that there has been a massive conspiracy of silence on something which was quite clear for Paul (as indeed for Jesus). Paul, in company with mainstream second-Temple Judaism, affirms that God’s final judgment will be in accordance with the entirety of a life led – in accordance, in other words, with works. He says this clearly and unambiguously in Romans 14.10–12 and 2 Corinthians 5.10. He affirms it in that terrifying passage about church-builders in 1 Corinthians 3. But the main passage in question is of course Romans 2.1–16.

This passage has often been read differently. We heard yesterday that Augustine had problems with it (perhaps the only thing in common between Augustine and E. P. Sanders). That is hardly surprising; here is the first statement about justification in Romans, and lo and behold it affirms justification according to works! The doers of the law, he says, will be justified (2.13). Shock, horror; Paul cannot (so many have thought) have really meant it. So the passage has been treated as a hypothetical position which Paul then undermines by showing that nobody can actually achieve it; or, by Sanders for instance, as a piece of unassimilated Jewish preaching which Paul allows to stand even though it conflicts with other things he says. But all such theories are undermined by exegesis itself, not least by observing the many small but significant threads that stitch Romans 2 into the fabric of the letter as a whole. Paul means what he says.

 

[Grazer]

Theologian NT Wright on this issue (I added emphasis):

The third point is remarkably controversial, seeing how well founded it is at several points in Paul. Indeed, listening to yesterday’s papers, it seems that there has been a massive conspiracy of silence on something which was quite clear for Paul (as indeed for Jesus). Paul, in company with mainstream second-Temple Judaism, affirms that God’s final judgment will be in accordance with the entirety of a life led – in accordance, in other words, with works. He says this clearly and unambiguously in Romans 14.10–12 and 2 Corinthians 5.10. He affirms it in that terrifying passage about church-builders in 1 Corinthians 3. But the main passage in question is of course Romans 2.1–16.

This passage has often been read differently. We heard yesterday that Augustine had problems with it (perhaps the only thing in common between Augustine and E. P. Sanders). That is hardly surprising; here is the first statement about justification in Romans, and lo and behold it affirms justification according to works! The doers of the law, he says, will be justified (2.13). Shock, horror; Paul cannot (so many have thought) have really meant it. So the passage has been treated as a hypothetical position which Paul then undermines by showing that nobody can actually achieve it; or, by Sanders for instance, as a piece of unassimilated Jewish preaching which Paul allows to stand even though it conflicts with other things he says. But all such theories are undermined by exegesis itself, not least by observing the many small but significant threads that stitch Romans 2 into the fabric of the letter as a whole. Paul means what he says.

I wonder how N.T Wright, whom I have massive respect for, reconciles that with Romans 10:9 or Romans 8:1. Works is a factor I agree, just not sure to what extent

 

[Bfnaught]

Paul says what he says!!! Eternal life is granted according to what we have done. True, the thief did not have time to do a lot of good works. But why do you, apparently, this gives us license to ignore something Paul wrote? Who knows? Since he only had a few hours to lives, perhaps the "threshold" was much lower for this thief.

Please, please, please: Answer this question: What is Paul saying here:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Romans 2 starts with the word "therefore", so for context look at Romans Chapter 1. Paul is speaking about sinners who have rejected God for idols, even after they have been exposed to the truth. Move on to Ch. 2 and Paul talks of God's judgment against them. In verses 7-9 he is comparing believers with non believers. Not works vs non works.

Romans 2:7-9 KJV

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

We have to remember that Paul didn't have chapters and verses. Read it all as one flowing thought.

 

[Davies]

Paul says what he says!!! Eternal life is granted according to what we have done. True, the thief did not have time to do a lot of good works. But why do you, apparently, this gives us license to ignore something Paul wrote? Who knows? Since he only had a few hours to lives, perhaps the "threshold" was much lower for this thief.

Please, please, please: Answer this question: What is Paul saying here:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

The thief was persistent in doing good, seeking glory, honor, and immortality. He was given eternal life, but notice what the thief says about himself and what he says about Jesus. He confesses his unrighteousness and points to Jesus' righteousness, and simply falls upon the mercy of God by faith. You see another example of this in the parable in Luke 18:9-14. Instead of taking one verse isolated by itself, we have to reconcile the verse with the rest of the Bible. While I can't ignore James and other passages that Paul writes about works justifying, we can't ignore the faith passages. What happens when you sin again and again and again? Does your repentance through the power of the Holy Spirit somehow justify you. Tell me one thing you have been able to do that justifies you, or qualifies you to enter heaven. Do you earn forgiveness by what you do? If you can trust what you do to justify you before God, all I can say is that I think you and NT Wright are wrong and point you to the finished work of Jesus' earthly ministry which fulfilled righteousness and reconciled us to God, not that we reconcile ourselves to God.

2 Corinthians 5:16-19

New King James Version (NKJV)

16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.(emphasis added)


All things are of God now. He works in us to will and to do according to His good pleasure, Philippians 2:13. Let me take yours and NT Wright's position for a moment. If the Holy Spirit indwells us, and enables us to perform good deeds which will justify us before Himself, then isn't the credit going to God and not man. Then what does that say about Jesus' righteousness? Is it incomplete? I think if we go about doing good deeds so that we will be justified, I think we will see those burn up as wood, hay, and stubble. Last point, NT Wright is talking about the good deeds done in the body empowered by the Holy Spirit, not faith as a work.


http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs...-wright-responding-to-piper-on-justification/


The link is from an interview done in 2009 that clearly shows NT Wright's works righteous gospel.


- Davies

 

[savedbygrace57]

by the obedience of one !

Re: Obey
God or never enter Heaven!

In my Religion, all those my Christ died for, they go to heaven because of His Obedience alone !

Rom 5:19


19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[Drew]

I wonder how N.T Wright, whom I have massive respect for, reconciles that with Romans 10:9 or Romans 8:1. Works is a factor I agree, just not sure to what extent

Romans 8:1 is easy. Wright argues, and I think his case is very strong that the basic structure of Romans 7 and 8 is this:

1. In Romans 7, Paul describes the struggles of the Jew under the Law of Moses, but, concludes with the wonderful fact that this Jew has been delivered by Jesus. (I do not know if you are aware of this, but Wright believes that the "I" who struggles in Romans 7 is the Jew under the Law of Moses. I think his case is very compelling);

2. Therefore (Romans 8:1) there is no condemnation because(rest of Romans 8) the Spirit will transform a person into, basically, a "good works" producing machine!

Ironically, the whole Romans 8:1 line does not challenge the 'good works save' line, it affirms it.

Look at this from Romans 8, and watch how people dance around to change its rather obvious meaning: Eternal life is based on how you actually live:

Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

I politely suggest that all it takes is a little willingness to accept the possibility that the standard reformed position on this is wrong. Once you open your mind, you see how powerful the evidence is: Paul believes that people are "saved" based on their good works! But, as I have pointed out before, he can also say "all you have to do to be saved is believe".

How does this work? Answer: Romans 8 - the Spirit generates the good works that save, and all you have to do get the Spirit is, yes, have faith.

 

[Drew]

......- Davies

Please answer the question I have asked you:

Please, please, please: Answer this question: What is Paul saying here:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

 

[Eugene]

It seems you are arguing one can sin, not repent of that sin but still be saved.

Lk 13:3,5

Hi Ernest, and wherever would you get that idea?

In the scripture you offer: Luke 13:3,5 the three following meanings are suggested of the word "Perish", and that's exactly what happened to Moses.

1c) to kill
1d) to declare that one must be put to death
1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed

It's certain that Moses was put to death for unbelief, and the scripture you chose suggests the reason he perished; he didn't repent huh?

Luke 13:3 3 . . except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Deuteronomy 32:48-52
48) And the LORD spake unto Moses . . .
49) Get thee up unto mount Nebo . . .
50) And die in the mount whither thou goest up,
51) Because ye trespassed against me . . .

Again, do you think Moses is in heaven? I certainly do.

 

[Cobblers Apprentice]

If there be anywhere on earth a lover of God who is always kept safe, I know nothing of it, for it was not shown to me. But this was shown: that in falling and rising again we are always kept in that same precious love.

(Julian of Norwich)

That's the way of it.

 

[Davies]

Please answer the question I have asked you:

Hi Drew,

My answer to your question is the thief on the cross. A better answer was given to you by savedbygrace57 in Romans 5:19.

Romans 5:19

New King James Version (NKJV)

19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.


- Davies

 

[Drew]

Romans 2 starts with the word "therefore", so for context look at Romans Chapter 1. Paul is speaking about sinners who have rejected God for idols, even after they have been exposed to the truth. Move on to Ch. 2 and Paul talks of God's judgment against them.

Ok, with you so far;

In verses 7-9 he is comparing believers with non believers. Not works vs non works.

No. You are simply not taking Paul at his word.

Yes, Romans 1 is an indictment of sinful humanity. But Paul says what he says!!!

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Yes, it turns out (see Romans 8) that only believers can do "saving works", but you cannot (legitimately, anyway) simply ignore the plain import of the above verses. Paul says that people get eternal life based on what they have done. Period.

Nowhere in chapter 1 or 2 does he say "It is believers who get eternal life", he says what he says!!: Those who persist in doing good get eternal life. And more to the point, he makes it clear that they get this life, yes, according to what they have done.

You have no idea how frustrating it is to see people deny the obvious. Yes, I happen to agree that only believers will get eternal life. But does Paul say that here? No!

He says what he says:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

 

[Drew]

Hi Drew,

My answer to your question is the thief on the cross. A better answer was given to you by savedbygrace57 in Romans 5:19.

Romans 5:19

New King James Version (NKJV)

19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.


- Davies

Please stop evading.

Please answer the question.

I asked you this:

What is Paul saying here:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Let me make it easy for you. Please complete this sentence:

"In Romans 2:6-7, Paul is saying........."

I hate to "force" this on you, but you really have not answered the question. Yes, the thief only lived a few minutes after believing and did not have the chance to do many good works.

But that does not make Romans 2:6-7 disappear!

So, please, just answer the question.

 

[Butch5]

You have no idea how frustrating it is to see people deny the obvious.

I do!

 

[Bfnaught]

Drew

You are still removing context. Paul has set up a "this or that" comparison. You can't grab a verse and build assumptions from it. He was comparing the actions and the consequences of believers and idolators. In verse 5 Paul tells the stubborn and unrepentant the error of their ways, and in verse 6 he lets them know that "God's gonna gitcha" as a warning.

Yes, he does write "persistence in doing good", but as a juxtaposition to the damning lifestyle laid out in chapter 1.

 

[Butch5]

Drew

You are still removing context. Paul has set up a "this or that" comparison. You can't grab a verse and build assumptions from it. He was comparing the actions and the consequences of believers and idolators. In verse 5 Paul tells the stubborn and unrepentant the error of their ways, and in verse 6 he lets them know that "God's gonna gitcha" as a warning.

Yes, he does write "persistence in doing good", but as a juxtaposition to the damning lifestyle laid out in chapter 1.

I don't see the argument you're making. It's a comparison, OK, isn't the destiny still based on their actions?

 

[Bfnaught]

I don't see the argument you're making. It's a comparison, OK, isn't the destiny still based on their actions?

Drew's argument was that Romans 2:6-7 was proof that eternal life is works based. He demanded to know what anyone thought Paul was talking about in those verses. Removed from context those verses can be interpreted as meaning that eternal life is dependent upon works, but in context to the previous chapter and the preceding verses, he is warning the non believers that they will be judged for their ways.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.