Obey God or never enter Heaven!

[Butch5]

Hello Drew

He was addressing everyone during that time. He was letting the Jews know that if it was not for Christ death that the Law was what that they would be judge by and by that nobody would get in heaven. If you look on in the other chapters you can see that he was making a point at the beginning like " Look don't you see if Jesus had not died on the cross this is what you could look foward to. Also James was talking about a person that was not saved but was trying to make everyone think he was by his bragging, but that there were no works or actions in his life that could prove this. Someone truley saved you will know by their actions, they don't have to tell you. An example of what Paul says is:
You want to go to a place in the jungle and head to the starting area and the guide there tell your group.
" This is what it is going to take to get there. I t will take two years of hard labor, we will have to cross rivers go over mountains, cut our way through jungle."
Everybody looks around and thinks " Is this what I really want to do?"
Then the guide tell you " No I was just kidding. There was a man a few years ago that, by himself, made a way for you to go. He took care of everything all you have to do is follow his path."
That is what Paul is showing. When Jesus died on the cross he made a way for us to go and that I would not be judged on something that I could not accomplish.

I don't see how this bears on the final destiny.

Regarding James, he uses Abaraham as an example. Surely Abraham was a believer. He says Abraham's faith worked with his works and by his works his faith was made complete. This is in contrast to faith that is dead. There's no way around what James as stated here. Works "Must" accompany faith for it to be living. Therefore works cannot be a product of faith, they give life to faith.

 

[Butch5]

As per my last post, I have intentionally "glossed" some of the details of my position. Here is what I believe:

1. When a believer accepts Jesus, that believer is given the Holy Spirit;

2. The Holy Spirit will be the agency that generates the good works, unless the believer basically 'turns away' and refuses to follow the promptings of the Holy Spirit;

3. If the believer does 'turn his back', he can indeed be lost.

If you hold the view that it is "unaided moral self-effort" that produces saving 'good works', I will (sadly) have to say that we have a fundamental disagreement.

I wouldn't necessarily say unaided. However, the Old Testament saints were justified, did works, and were obedient, without the indwelling of the Spirit. You said it's the Spirit that generates the works, who genernated the works in them, they weren't indwelled by the Spirit?

 

[Thankful1]

Hi Thankfu1,

Here is an example of Peter, who after receiving the Holy Spirit, sinned.

Galatians 2:11-13

New King James Version (NKJV)

No Return to the Law

11 Now when Peter[a] had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.

Peter played the role of the hypocrite, and I dare say, that if you hold fast that you now are perfect in thought, word, and deed, you play the hypocrite.

Jesus spared His most scathing rebukes to those who thought they were justified by keeping the law.

Matthew 23:13...

New King James Version (NKJV)

13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.


15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.


25 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence.[f]


26 Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.

28 Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.


Hypocrisy is a terrible sin. Not that I haven't played the hypocrite. I'd be ashamed to talk about all my sins, but it is the finished work of Jesus, namely His life work, death, and resurrection whereby my sin is forgiven and my soul justified. Justice is satisfied in the death of Jesus and mercy can be handed down to the sinner, the sinner made righteous by one Man's obedience. :angel3

Romans 5:19

New King James Version (NKJV)

19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.


- Davies

Yes almost every one who wants to feel righteous and still be a sinner brings up what Paul accused Peter of doing. These people have no scripture to contradict what John says, so they need to make Paul and Peter sinners also.

People seem to know that Peter was deliberately committing a wrongdoing. They seem to know that Peter was defying what God was telling him to do. They seem to believe Paul had it all right, and Peter was a sinner and would never make it to the kingdom of God. Paul never said Peter was sinning. Paul was rebuking Peter’s choice of dinner guests, and said Peter was hypocritical. So with out trial you have condemned Peter?

So because you may believe Peter, and Paul continued to sin after becoming a temple of God, that it makes all the scripture that tells us a sinner will never enter the kingdom of God, null and void?

 

[Danus]

Yes almost every one who wants to feel righteous and still be a sinner brings up what Paul accused Peter of doing. These people have no scripture to contradict what John says, so they need to make Paul and Peter sinners also.

People seem to know that Peter was deliberately committing a wrongdoing. They seem to know that Peter was defying what God was telling him to do. They seem to believe Paul had it all right, and Peter was a sinner and would never make it to the kingdom of God. Paul never said Peter was sinning. Paul was rebuking Peter’s choice of dinner guests, and said Peter was hypocritical. So with out trial you have condemned Peter?

So because you may believe Peter, and Paul continued to sin after becoming a temple of God, that it makes all the scripture that tells us a sinner will never enter the kingdom of God, null and void?

Thankful1. I'm hoping your not avoiding my questions.

Just so it's clear, your saying one has to be perfectly Sinless to be saved and enter into the kingdom of heaven. Correct? Also, a true Christian is sinless. Correct?

Also, just thought of another one: What's the best way to feel righteous? You mentioned people who want to "feel righteous, yet sin". How do you go about feeling righteous the most?

 

[beardedad]

I don't see how this bears on the final destiny.

Regarding James, he uses Abaraham as an example. Surely Abraham was a believer. He says Abraham's faith worked with his works and by his works his faith was made complete. This is in contrast to faith that is dead. There's no way around what James as stated here. Works "Must" accompany faith for it to be living. Therefore works cannot be a product of faith, they give life to faith.

Abaraham was under the Law we are not . When Christ died he change that. James is showing that an unsaved man is tring to prove his faith by his words and not his actions. That a truley saved person has to prove nothing, that you should be able to tell by his actions instead of his words.

 

[Thankful1]

Thankful1. I'm hoping your not avoiding my questions.

Just so it's clear, your saying one has to be perfectly Sinless to be saved and enter into the kingdom of heaven. Correct? Also, a true Christian is sinless. Correct?

Also, just thought of another one: What's the best way to feel righteous? You mentioned people who want to "feel righteous, yet sin". How do you go about feeling righteous the most?

You make me sad for you. I am giving you a chance to see. But all you can do is mock.

Have you ever asked Jesus to teach you, and has Jesus ever talked to you and told you what he wants you to know?

John tells us that a sinner is of the devil, and yet people can believe they are of God even if they sin. It must be that people are blind to what God is telling them in the written Word.

 

[Butch5]

Abaraham was under the Law we are not . When Christ died he change that. James is showing that an unsaved man is tring to prove his faith by his words and not his actions. That a truley saved person has to prove nothing, that you should be able to tell by his actions instead of his words.

Look at his argument. Where is James talking about an unsaved man? He says Abraham was justified by works which made his faith complete. In other words without his works Abraham's faith was not alive. You're saying James is talking about an unsaved man, that's not the case but even if it were it would be irrelevant because his example uses a man who was a follower of God and he still says his faith without works is incomplete. It's not able to save.

 

[beardedad]

Look at his argument. Where is James talking about an unsaved man? He says Abraham was justified by works which made his faith complete. In other words without his works Abraham's faith was not alive. You're saying James is talking about an unsaved man, that's not the case but even if it were it would be irrelevant because his example uses a man who was a follower of God and he still says his faith without works is incomplete. It's not able to save.

I disagree,it wasn't work it was his obeying God that showed his faith in God. James was trying to show that our faith to be true we need to obey God if he asks us to do something. God was not testing Abaraham's works he was testing his faith. You are right faith without works is dead faith. Faith does save, but it is what we do after that shows if we have true faith in Christ.

 

[smaller]

You make me sad for you. I am giving you a chance to see. But all you can do is mock.

Have you ever asked Jesus to teach you, and has Jesus ever talked to you and told you what he wants you to know?

John tells us that a sinner is of the devil, and yet people can believe they are of God even if they sin. It must be that people are blind to what God is telling them in the written Word.

There is a difference between faith and false delusions. There is a difference between truthful speaking believers and those who can not speak truthfully.

There are many deceivers within the hearts of believers who claim they are sinless. Every time that little voice comes into your head and threatens to burn you alive if you sin, that is the voice of the deceiver in your MIND who has brought the delusion of your sinless perfection.

It is not always the person one is engaged with in such delusions.

Paul and the other Apostolic writers of the N.T. gave us measures to identify 'truthful' speakers and truthful speaking.

Paul, by his own mouth said he was the chief of sinners post salvation. Paul, by his own mouth said evil was present with him post salvation. Paul, by his own mouth said he had a devil in his flesh post salvation.

There by Paul's own mouth, truthful measures are laid down between believers to see who speaks truthfully or who can't.

James 5:16
Confess your faults one to another,

s

 

[savedbygrace57]

I am so thankful to God for the Lord Jesus Christ, because if it was based upon my personal obedience to get to heaven, I would never get there, but since it was not based upon my personal obedience, but the personal obedience of one Jesus Christ, I have been made Righteous Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[Asyncritus]

I am so thankful to God for the Lord Jesus Christ, because if it was based upon my personal obedience to get to heaven, I would never get there [...]

I'm not sure that you are going to get there.

John 3.13: 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Worked example:

Acts 2.34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand

So where are the dead if not in heaven? Easy. Lots more like this:

Dan 12.2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

That's the resurrection at the last day.

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will be raised up at the resurrection:

Mt 22.31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Sorry about that.

 

[Knotical]

You make me sad for you. I am giving you a chance to see. But all you can do is mock.

Have you ever asked Jesus to teach you, and has Jesus ever talked to you and told you what he wants you to know?

John tells us that a sinner is of the devil, and yet people can believe they are of God even if they sin. It must be that people are blind to what God is telling them in the written Word.

Are you saying that you are completely incapable of sinning?

 

[savedbygrace57]

asy

I'm not sure that you are going to get there.

I am not suprised !

 

[elijah23]

Obey God or never enter Heaven!

(Matthew 7:21-23) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”


Sinning is not obeying God.

One who is begotten by God will not sin. One has to be begotten to enter the kingdom of God.

(1 John 3:9) “No one, who has been begotten by God sins; because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”

I sort of agree, and disagree, with this. In the end we need to obey the Lord. Still, that can be a struggle and we all stumble from time to time, don't we?

 

[Danus]

You make me sad for you. I am giving you a chance to see. But all you can do is mock.

Have you ever asked Jesus to teach you, and has Jesus ever talked to you and told you what he wants you to know?

John tells us that a sinner is of the devil, and yet people can believe they are of God even if they sin. It must be that people are blind to what God is telling them in the written Word.

How am I forcing you to me sad for me? I'm no more mocking you than you are mocking Christ my friend. I'm trying to understand your theology.

I asked you for a few direct simple answers to a few direct simple questions. You're not clear. Not clear at all, to what the bible teaches and I need you to defend it and explain it. Can you answer the questions I asked? Let's try it again.

1. Your saying one has to be perfectly Sinless to be saved and enter into the kingdom of heaven. Correct?

2. A true Christian is sinless. Correct?

3. You mentioned people who want to "feel righteous, yet sin". How do you go about feeling righteous the most?

 

[Mitspa]

I am so thankful to God for the Lord Jesus Christ, because if it was based upon my personal obedience to get to heaven, I would never get there, but since it was not based upon my personal obedience, but the personal obedience of one Jesus Christ, I have been made Righteous Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Many seem to be blind to the fact that Christ Jesus paid the price for our sins! They continue in the "flesh" seeking to justify the "flesh"! Only by the "Spirit" can one serve God. One must "reckon" themselves dead to sin, to have power over sin.
Rom 10:3

For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

The "New Creation" the "Spiritual man" is "in Christ" and is sinless!


The old man of the "flesh" can be as religious and full of hypocricy
as the Pharisees! Outside painted white, but full of death inside!

Isa 5:20

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Isa 5:21


Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!


There is none good, no not one!
Only by faith can a man be "made righteous"

 

[Davies]

Many seem to be blind to the fact that Christ Jesus paid the price for our sins! They continue in the "flesh" seeking to justify the "flesh"! Only by the "Spirit" can one serve God. One must "reckon" themselves dead to sin, to have power over sin.
Rom 10:3

For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

The "New Creation" the "Spiritual man" is "in Christ" and is sinless!


The old man of the "flesh" can be as religious and full of hypocricy
as the Pharisees! Outside painted white, but full of death inside!

Isa 5:20

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Isa 5:21


Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!


There is none good, no not one!
Only by faith can a man be "made righteous"

Hi Mitspa,

You are sounding very intolerant, and judgmental. Are you one of those born again, fundamental, literal Bible reading Christians?

- Davies

 

[smaller]

Hi Mitspa,

You are sounding very intolerant, and judgmental. Are you one of those born again, fundamental, literal Bible reading Christians?

- Davies

Many float the 'new man is sinless' routine and then go about to justify their sins and shortcomings on any number of 'pin the tail on the donkey' exercises.

I have studied intently the moves and actions of the Pharisees for a long time.

Why? I really don't want to be one. In those studies I found out in short order I was in fact a modern day Pharisee. It was an easy discovery.

You see I 'too' thought that I was 'all that' in Christ. Sinless perfection in and by faith. Excusing whatever shortcoming or sin I happen to have stuck in my face that I couldn't deny was a sin (you know, like a little glance at a good looking woman) and thought as long as I turned my eyes like Job did, I was not sinning. Never did I question 'how' these things got started to begin with. Excuses excuses. It's just 'normal male activity' in most of our eyes isn't it? Oh, but I, I, I don't really sin as long as I don't 'dwell' on it, right?

Job 31:1
I made a covenant with mine eyes; why then should I think upon a maid?

Yes, successful sin warrior me. Pat pat pat on the back. Look at how GOOD I am Lord!

The further one presses in, really in sincerely wanting to live for God in Christ, they will rightfully come to internal observations of every single thought in their heads. Every single one. And eventually a discovery is made that not every thought is Perfect and a believer stops lying to themselves and starts to take an honest INTERNAL look at, not others, believing themselves 'all that' but of their real internal conditions.

There came then a simple understanding. That if I did not want to fall into the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy, I simply had to acknowledge that what Jesus told them as facts, facts they did not believe or SEE for themselves, then I should be able to find LIFE in seeing the facts as Jesus said, rather than scurry away in DENIAL of the exposures.

So, picture this. It's quite simple:

Matthew 23:27
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

I had for example read this particular scripture, oh, about 10,000 times, and every single time I read it, I EXCUSED myself from this being a fact for myself. I am after all considered sinless Perfection in Jesus and He sees me as only totally righteous 'in faith.' yada yada yada. Today such sights for myself are not only lies, they are internal deceptions.

Fact is what Jesus described above IS our REAL condition. I prayed to God how this could be so? Not I Lord. Surely not I, I, I?

God in Christ asked me an honest question. "Ever been tempted in your MIND there son?"

Uh, yes Father. But I turned my eyes and did not dwell upon them. So I'm OK, right?

"That's not the point son. The fact is this is what happened to you:"

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Oh, come on Lord! Surely not I, I, I. I am a BEEEELIEEEVER!

"Are you a sinner?"

Yes. I know I can not say 'I have no sin' and be IN Truth. There is no point in lying. Yes, I know A SIN THOUGHT is A SIN. And yes, I suppose even in that MOMENTARY STRAY GLANCE, even in just that nanosecond, technically speaking I guess I could see that would be an internal sin, however momentary. (I use the easiest example from a believing man's perspective.)

"Consider this. If the tempter placed that thought, was the tempter therein at that moment?"

Yes, I suppose that is the case.

"You understand then what I said about being full of dead mens bones in consideration of that internal entry of the tempter?"

Yes, in that LIGHT I certainly do. It's not an observation of just me then is it?

OK, I think I get it now. What you spoke to the Pharisee IS a fact for all of us then isn't it?

"Yep."

Mark 7:23
All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

So, you mean I am not an exception then?

"Uh, no. What was spoken to them also applies to you."

It's called reasoning together for a reason.

There are things that can be shared with God at the table called HONESTY.

No liar will be blessed at that internal table.

s

 

[Davies]

Good Morning smaller,

Thank you for your last post. It's a great struggle to come to grips with the depth of sin we are guilty of. God has allowed me to experience my sin to such a degree that there is no way I, with reason, could deny my sinfulness. I think this is the same for everyone, but self-righteousness can blind us, and yes I've played the hypocrite and still struggle to keep from playing the hypocrite. I lose site easily. These thoughts remind of the passage in John 3:19-21.
John 3:19-21

New King James Version (NKJV)

19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.â€


It's interesting that those who try to justify themselves in what they do are the ones who can't acknowledge their sin, they won't come to the light because their deeds are evil. If we come to the light, we will acknowledge like Isaiah, 'I am a man of unclean lips,' and so much more.

- Davies

 

[Mitspa]

Hi Mitspa,

You are sounding very intolerant, and judgmental. Are you one of those born again, fundamental, literal Bible reading Christians?

- Davies

Hello Bro Davies

You caught me again! Making everthing of Christ Jesus, and nothing of man!:yes

Php 3:3

For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Php 3:9

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

I am not ashamed!