Once Saved, Always Saved?

[francisdesales]

It's obvious that you can't answer the simplest of questions here and for painfully obvious reasons.. you think and believe that you're good.. and that's the bottom line for those who believe that they're working with God for their salvation.

For the third time, I AM ASKING YOU...

What is the role of sanctification in the life of a Christian.

I am asking you a question! Can you answer it?

The reason you don't answer is that because there IS NO PURPOSE of sanctification in a Christian, when a person is duped into thinking we are "covered with a Jesus blanket". In the fallacious imputed justice mindset, there is no reason to become more holy, to "work out your salvation", since Christ's holiness makes the Christian's santification a useless exercise.

Thus, the answer would be "there is no point in sanctification in the life of the Christian", in your mindset... Too bad it goes against so much of what the Scriptures speak about...

Regards

 

[Eventide]

I believe what the Bible says about this very thing.

Paul wrote to the Ephesians, chapter one and chapter 3, that God has revealed His plan to the Apostles in the fullness of time. THIS PLAN was not forced upon God by the Bible.

"According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:" EPH 3:11

The Bible is not eternal. There was a time it did not exist.

Oh, aren't you the guy who confuses the Bible with God? Perhaps that might explain your confusion. The Bible is not God... Get over it.

No, the bible is the WORD OF GOD, that which proceeds from HIS MOUTH.. the words of eternal life.. Spirit and life.. evidently that doen't mean anything at all to you.. that Christ died for our sins ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES.

Some would rather teach us that the volume of the OT book didn't even matter.. although we hear the LORD consistently speaking of fulfilling that which was WRITTEN.

Of course those who could care less about the holy scriptures would deny this.

God is not bound by the Bible, HE INSPIRED IT, not the other way around. God had a mysterious plan for all time, and then began to reveal it, as RELATED by the Bible (not as commanded by the Bible).

Strangley enough, it was all foretold and then fulfilled to the jot and tittle by the Lord Jesus Christ.. but again none of this matters to the one true church crowd who would tell us that they wrote the bible in the first place.

You got it backwards. God's plan works, and then men are LATER inspired to write. God already knew that He would send a Savior to die on the cross before any of the Bible was even written. From the beginning of time, the Church has been planned, the Body of Christ. The bible didn't form God's plan, it merely relates what God had already planned and done.

Regards

Excuse me, but the entire OT was written centuries before Christ came and then fulfilled it to the letter.

But what difference does that make when we have the one true church to tell everyone that it didn't hold God accountable to its very pages.. that's absurd and everyone knows it but the ones blinded by their 'special' one true church.

 

[Drew]

Now, as to this:

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€

I have always believed that our time in heaven, that is, our life there, is dependant on the life we have led. My "room" that Jesus prepares for me is not going to the the room he prepares for, say, Billy Graham or sister Teresa!! But it is probably more than what the man on the cross next to him got!

PG, you are simply not honouring the context. In the above you are suggesting that eternal life is not "part of the package of rewards". But that is simply not how the text reads:

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

The text reads as it reads: eternal life is given on the basis of what we have done. You appear to be carving out the "repay each person according to what they have done" and ignoring the next sentence, which clearly includes "eternal life" in the "rewards" package that is driven by behaviour. One cannot "extract" the "repay each person according to what they have done" and ignore that this statement directly sets up the "eternal life is given to those who persist in doing good" statement.

 

[Eventide]

For the third time, I AM ASKING YOU...

What is the role of sanctification in the life of a Christian.

I am asking you a question! Can you answer it?

The reason you don't answer is that because there IS NO PURPOSE of sanctification in a Christian, when a person is duped into thinking we are "covered with a Jesus blanket". In the fallacious imputed justice mindset, there is no reason to become more holy, to "work out your salvation", since Christ's holiness makes the Christian's santification a useless exercise.

Thus, the answer would be "there is no point in sanctification in the life of the Christian", in your mindset... Too bad it goes against so much of what the Scriptures speak about...

Regards

I know what sanctification is for and it's by the Spirit of God... conforming the believer to HIS IMAGE.. not His image and OUR IMAGE.. again, it's not Christ AND me, it's Christ in me..

OLD THINGS (like me) are passed away, crucified with CHRIST even... and even after I am saved I am told to PUT OFF my OLD MAN who is corrupt according to deceitful lusts and to PUT ON the Lord Jesus Christ... the one who alone is good and the one thing that you can't come to grips with... that YOU are not good.

Go ahead and say it, we all know it's what you believe.. that YOU are good.. and again, the bottom line for those who are led to believe that they are working with God for their salvation.

 

[Eventide]

If you're good then why are we told to PUT OFF the OLD MAN who IS corrupt according to deceitful lusts and to put on the Lord Jesus Christ..

If you're getting better, then this is a lie... just as this would be..

That there are none good but one, and that is God.

One of the simplest verses in the bible is a major stumblingblock to much of Christendom.. especially to the one true church.

 

[Eventide]

How about this one..

If ye shall seek to save your life ye shall lose it..

How about..

I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, YET NOT I, but Christ liveth in me..

Or...

YE ARE DEAD and your life is hid with Christ in God..

All of this must be rationalized away.. even this..

If any man shall come after Me, let him DENY HIMSELF, take up his cross and follow Me.

Nobody believes this stuff anymore... it's the days of easy believeism and that you're good... it does a good job at getting the focus off of the Lord Jesus Christ (the one who alone is good) and putting it upon men and their endless endeavor to work for what Christ alone has already finished.

 

[Drew]

Then I think that we're in agreement.

Well good, although I suspect we will need to hash this over some more.

People will sometimes say this: "We are saved solely by the free grace gift of Christ's death on the cross, and any "good works" that we produce as the result of the indwelling Spirit are 'evidence' of the presence of this free grace gift".

I have great sympathy for this statement, although it needs to be remembered: if the "evidence" is not there, then the person may well not be a true member of God's family. I am just as uncomfortable with Romans 2 as anyone else.

But it says what it says - when eternal life is to be handed out, the "criteria" is behaviour. But I hope it is now clear that I believe that the person with the "free gift" of the cross and the Spirit is assured of passing the Romans 2 judgement, if they do not turn their back on God.

Now I suspect that last clause will not sit well with you. Note that I have not so much been arguing against OSAS as I have been arguing that "good deeds" is the basis for final salvation.

 

[handy]

That's right, nobody is saying anything remotely close to that... God knows the heart and He alone knows repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.. and Eph 1 tells us that this is precisely how we got saved.. that it was AFTER we trusted in Christ, AFTER hearing the gospel, and AFTER we believed we were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise until the day of redemption. That's when God baptized us into that one body by the same Spirit.. that's when we became members of the body of Christ.

Ephesians 1:3 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.



This states that after we respond to the gospel and believe, we are sealed with the Spirit, who is a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption. Doesn't say that we have already taken hold of it.

Because people believe that they are GOOD, that's the bottom line.. the bible says that there are NONE good but one, and that is God.. do you believe that or do you rationalize that away and then figure that you are working with God for your salvation..

Is it Christ AND you, or is it Christ in you..?

I believe it is Christ in me and me in Christ. God is good, but we are called to be holy, correct?

Just in case you misunderstand where I'm coming from, here is a pertinent text:

1 Peter 1:
6 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, 7so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
8and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,
9obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.
10As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries,
11seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.
12It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven--things into which angels long to look.
13Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
14As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance,
15but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior;
16because it is written, "YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY."
17If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth;
18knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers,
19but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.

Do you see the actions required of us in this text?

We are to prepare our minds.
We are to keep sober in spirit.
We are to fix our hope.
We are not to be conformed to our former lusts.
We are to be holy in all our behavior.

Can we do any of this without Christ? Of course not! But, we are called to do this, and we need the Spirit within us so that we can. However, if we fail to do these things, if we cease to walk this path, if we go back to the former things...we will fail to receive our inheritance.

 

[Eventide]

I am not entirely sure I understand the point of this statement.

Listen - Paul says what he says in Romans 2:6-7: eternal life is awarded based on behaviour. But if, repeat if, you are implying that those of us who actually take Paul at his word think that we are "good", then that is simply not what we are saying.

Paul is clear - it is the Holy Spirit that is the "engine", driving power, that creates the "good works" that will ultimately enable final salvation. Remember these words from Romans 8:

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son

So it is entirely Biblical to expect that the Christian will evolve into a more Christlike state as they proceed through life. So it should be no surprise that the true disciple of Jesus will indeed "persist in doing good" and get eternal life on that basis.

And by persisting in doing good we're putting OFF the old man who is corrupt according to deceitful lusts and putting on the Lord Jesus Christ.. the one who alone is good.

Apart from Me ye can do nothing... and that would be nothing good obviously, for God is good.

He that hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ... even if that means harsh chastisement.. even if that means letting you go off on your own to truly see what we are and to better understand who He is...

Do you think that it's Christ AND you, or is it Christ in you ?

 

[Drew]

Drew, you are not clever and are not this stupid - I have clearly stated my opinion.

I suggest more politeness on your part.

Now, do you have the intellect and guts to answer my question from post 24 or not?

I think you will find that such insulting rhetoric will not deter me from arguing what I believe the Bible teaches.

How about you following your own advice and dealing with questions I have already asked of you:

What does Paul actually say:

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

PizzaGuy: What is it, precisely that Paul says God will give?

PizzaGuy: And on what basis, precisely does Paul say this "something" will be given?

Let me restate it:

So, what did Jesus die for? What did He accomplish on the cross?

It's an easy question for me - he died for my sins. It is done, I need not die for them myself. (I am called to die TO them, sure.)

Well my answer is this: Jesus died to cleanse human beings from their sin and enable them to participate in the Kingdom of God. Where I suspect you err is this: you do not account for numerous texts which clearly state that we are new creations and that, whether we like it or not, there is indeed a coming judgement at which all must stand and at which eternal life will be awarded based, yes, on what we have done.

Now as a string of recent posts have hopefully made clear, I believe that it is entirely the work of the Holy Spirit that transforms us into the kind of people who will pass the Romans 2 judgmenet.

But the Romans 2 text says what it says - eternal life is granted on the basis of behaviour.

Now, I look forward to your answers to the questions I have already posed to you.

But, what is your answer? You have made it clear that you think I must earn my salvation - so what did Jesus do on the cross?

If you have read all my posts, you will know that I have never said anything like this at all.

 

[Eventide]

Ephesians 1:3 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.



This states that after we respond to the gospel and believe, we are sealed with the Spirit, who is a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption. Doesn't say that we have already taken hold of it.

I believe it is Christ in me and me in Christ. God is good, but we are called to be holy, correct?

Just in case you misunderstand where I'm coming from, here is a pertinent text:

Do you see the actions required of us in this text?

We are to prepare our minds.
We are to keep sober in spirit.
We are to fix our hope.
We are not to be conformed to our former lusts.
We are to be holy in all our behavior.

Can we do any of this without Christ? Of course not! But, we are called to do this, and we need the Spirit within us so that we can. However, if we fail to do these things, if we cease to walk this path, if we go back to the former things...we will fail to receive our inheritance.

Maybe this will help..

How can YOU do any of this (anything good) if YOU are not good..?

Why would we be told to putt off our old man who is corrupt according to deceitful lusts if God just desires to FIX US.. ?

Is that His remedy.. or is it death to self.. ? Can new wine be put into old skins ?

Do you think that you're good ? Or is it Christ in us which is good, and are our good works directly proportional to how I am willing to lay down MY LIFE so that HE can live through me ? He IS the way the truth and the life isn't He.. or is He trying to fix me so that I am good ?

I think that we will be good when He glorifies us and changes our vile body of death like unto His.. because we know that we shall be like HIM.. although for the present time.. the word of God holds true..

There are NONE good but ONE, and that is God.

 

[Drew]

How can you 'work out' that which you don't have ?

Or do you believe that you are saved as long as you do good ? What about the bad days.. do we then need to get saved again and maintain that... sounds horrible.. how'd you measure up to CHRIST today... did you come up a little short or did you finally hit the mark ?

I appreciate this concern and we who take Paul at his word in Romans 2 are often asked this: "If we are really 'saved by deeds', then what is the standard?'

The answer is: We are not told. But it doesn't matter - we are promised that the Holy Spirit will transform us so that we will "pass".

 

[Elijah674]

I appreciate this concern and we who take Paul at his word in Romans 2 are often asked this: "If we are really 'saved by deeds', then what is the standard?'

The answer is: We are not told. But it doesn't matter - we are promised that the Holy Spirit will transform us so that we will "pass".

Don't know? Read Rev. 3:16 for these ones that had not one point lacking in Christ's DOCTRINES, but their motive of LOVING CHRIST had become so SICK [[Lukewarm Agape Love]] that the whole Virgin CANDLESTICK [[WAS SPEWED OUT!]]

And not only that, but if one can 'see'? They can find the COLD were easier for the Holy Spirit to reach than ALL OF THESE 'UNITED' HAS/BEENS! (Rev. 3:9)

And who are these ones? These ones are about the same as the OSAS ones except they teach also teach as rome, that the whole church as in doctrine's are OSAS.

--Elijah

PS: It would be nice if even one could be reached here, but the prophecy of Zeph. 1:12 finds the Holy Spirit searching 'with only candles' at this time, most are already 'settled on their lees..' and in the solid false spiritual concrete of satan as Prophesied in Rev. 17:1-5. (even?? it seems with re/rod inforcement!)

 

[bibleMAN]

Some of the arguments here, such as the "how can you do good if you are not good" and "how can we EARN our salvation" are just missing the point here.

Noone ever said that works buy salvation, or that we earn it.

It's simple: We have to be a certain way to be eligable for the gift that Jesus won.

Jesus dying on the cross does not = EVERYONE being saved. Only some will be saved.

Why??? Was Jesus' sacrifice not good enough?

That's not the case at all! Jesus' sacrifice was perfect... But it only applies to those who believe and those who repent!

Imagine it like this.. We are all drowning in a dark pool, and there is NOTHING we can do in our power to save ourselves. The son, however, has offered us a way out and God has lowered His own hand into the water to lift us out.

God alone has given us the opportunity to be saved... But we ONLY WILL if we actually choose to reach up and take His hand.

That is what salvation is like. There is nothing we can do to save ourselves from sin. We are sinful and therefore obsolete by nature, which means by our own power we could NEVER be good.. EVER.

But God's power is more then ours, and He SO loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, so that whoever should believe in him would receive everlasting life..

That is the clause right there, WHOEVER SHOULD BELIEVE IN HIM... Jesus' sacrifice did not save everyone on the spot.. The sacrifice itself, the opportunity for us to be saved, was "Finished", but we are not saved yet! Not until we believe in God and repent for our sins.

 

[francisdesales]

Maybe this will help..

How can YOU do any of this (anything good) if YOU are not good..?

More of the same ol' "Me or God", the zero-sum game.

God is not competing with us. God is drawing us to Him. He is conforming us, making us holy. Since God is love, it would seem natural that the Lover would seek out and call to the beloved.

Thus, the zero-sum game misses the entire point. God and I are on the same team because it is His will. As I am "in Christ", a dwelling place of the Spirit, I am certainly able to love, to have mercy, and to forgive my enemies. That is God's Will, that we be drawn into a new nature, to be made holy as God is holy (do not read that to mean that we are holy to the same degree), for if WE are not made holy, we shall not see God.

Regards

 

[Drew]

I strongly suspect that some here are thinking as folllows:

1. We are saved entirely by a kind of "legal" transaction on the cross - we deserve death, Jesus takes the penaltly in our place, therefore this is all that "salvation" is about;

2. Therefore, anyone who agrees with Romans 2:6-7 is mistaken - "good deeds" cannot play a role in "salvation".

Well for one, how do such people justify ignoring a statement from inspired scripture? But for two, I suggest that this widely held understanding of the nature of the atonement is not Biblical.

I suggest something like the following:

1. On the cross, God condemned sin understood as a power or force, not Jesus (Romans 8:3). Jesus dies as God condemns sin - the true and legitimate target of God's wrath - but Jesus is not to be understood as being "punished";

2. What happened on the cross is better understood using a medical paradigm rather than a legal paradigm. The power of sin is "lured" into the flesh of Jesus and then "attacked and disarmed" by God. We, who are otherwise "stained" or damaged by sin are thereby "healed".

3. Having been "healed and restored" through Jesus' work on the cross, we are now "new creations" and can, with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, begin the journey to being the whole human beings we are intended to become;

4. The only persons who have a place in the "age to come" are those whose lives are on track for "wholeness" - namely those who persist in doing good.

Now, I probably should qualify things a little more, but the above should give you at least a sense of how I view the atonement - it is more of an act of "cleansing of the virus of sin using Jesus as the 'host'" than it is "Jesus being punished so we don't have to be" kind of thing.

 

[Drew]

Bible Man: I agree with the content of your post.

 

[Drew]

More of the same ol' "Me or God", the zero-sum game.

.....That is God's Will, that we be drawn into a new nature,

Agree. Those who think that we cannot "be good enough" to pass the Romans 2 "works" judgement seem to entirely overlook numerous texts which promise transformation, renewal, and, yes, new creation.

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

Some will appeal to texts about how we are worthless sinners in order to try to undermine final salvation by works (suggesting it is not even possible). However, such people are clearly appealing to texts that describe the state of the human person prior to re-birth.

 

[Eventide]

More of the same ol' "Me or God", the zero-sum game.

God is not competing with us. God is drawing us to Him. He is conforming us, making us holy. Since God is love, it would seem natural that the Lover would seek out and call to the beloved.

Thus, the zero-sum game misses the entire point. God and I are on the same team because it is His will. As I am "in Christ", a dwelling place of the Spirit, I am certainly able to love, to have mercy, and to forgive my enemies. That is God's Will, that we be drawn into a new nature, to be made holy as God is holy (do not read that to mean that we are holy to the same degree), for if WE are not made holy, we shall not see God.

Regards

I think that you're the one missing the entire point of the NT.. and that is that if any man shall come after Me, let him DENY HIMSELF, take up his cross, and follow Me.. for IF YE SHALL SEEK TO SAVE YOUR life ye shall lose it, and if ye shall lose it for Me and the gospel, ye shall save it.

What does this mean to you...? How did the special one true church teach you concerning these NT truths..?

How about AFTER you're saved.. what does it mean to PUT OFF the OLD MAN who IS corrupt according to deceitful lusts and to put on the Lord Jesus Christ.. or.. I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, YET NOT I, but Christ liveth in me.. or.. YE ARE DEAD and your life is hid in Christ with God..?

Or why did Paul say.. O wretched man that I am rather than wretched man that I was..?

Can you answer these truthfully or will you just ignore them and pretend that they're not even there in the holy scriptures, which are the living and powerful word of God which is for ever settled in Heaven..

 

[Eventide]

Agree. Those who think that we cannot "be good enough" to pass the Romans 2 "works" judgement seem to entirely overlook numerous texts which promise transformation, renewal, and, yes, new creation.

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

Some will appeal to texts about how we are worthless sinners in order to try to undermine final salvation by works (suggesting it is not even possible). However, such people are clearly appealing to texts that describe the state of the human person prior to re-birth.

So evidently DREW is good enough..

All Christians are a new creation because they have Christ in them... that's about as NEW as it can get..and that doesn't negate the simple truths of the NT, one being that there are none good but ONE, and that is God.

Evidently that isn't true for you because we have your commentary here telling us that you're good enough.