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OSAS

JLB said:
Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit...
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This is a reference to the new birth (Jn 3:5) that includes elements; 1) water 2) Spirit

When one is water baptized he is as Peter says "obeying the truth". The role of water is water baptism. The Spirit's role in man's salvation is the written inspired word that instructs men on how to be saved. Those then that obey those instructions are said to be "born again..by the word of God" 1 Pet 1:23.

Jn 3:5-------------Spirit++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom/saved
1 Pet 1:22------SPirit+++++++obeying the truth>>>>>>purified soul/saved

Those that DOETH (obeying the truth in water baptism) the will of the Father are the ones who enter the kingdom Mt 7:21
 
Ernest T. Bass said:
This is a reference to the new birth (Jn 3:5) that includes elements; 1) water 2) Spirit
Click to expand...

Water is a reference to natural birth.
Spirit is a reference to spiritual birth.


That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6


Surely you agree that for a person to be born again, they first must be born.


JLB
 
JLB said:
Water is a reference to natural birth.
Spirit is a reference to spiritual birth.


That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6


Surely you agree that for a person to be born again, they first must be born.


JLB
Click to expand...
If "born of water" is natural birth, then why would Jesus tell a full grown adult standing in from of Him that he needed to be "born of the Spirit" and "born of water" (born physically). Why would Jesus command a full grown man standing in front of Him that he MUST be born physically??? Would Jesus not realize Nicodemus had already been born physically?

Besides the physical birth was something Nicodemus had already experience but he had not experienced the new birth. So there is no connection between the physical birth and spiritual birth....the corruptible seed (physical) is not part of the new birth (1 Pet 1:23).

Jn 3:5 ------------SPirit++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
Titus 3:5--------Holy Ghost+++++laver of water>>>>>>>>saved
1 Cor 12:13-----SPirit++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>>in the body

There is no mention of the physical birth in other parallel 'born again' verses.
 
Ernest T. Bass said:
If "born of water" is natural birth, then why would Jesus tell a full grown adult standing in from of Him that he needed to be "born of the Spirit" and "born of water" (born physically).
Click to expand...

Jesus like John the Baptist, and later Paul, had to deal with the Jewish mindset that believed they were sons of God because they were the natural descendants (through natural birth) of Abraham.

Jesus is saying that we must be born again, which by default means we must be born first, in order to be born again.

By using natural birth, Jesus is using earthly things to teach Nicodemus heavenly (spiritual) things.


Jesus says this, then explains what He means in verse 6.


Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:5-6


Explanation —

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


Born of water = Natural Birth

Born of the Spirit = Spiritual Birth


If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? John 3:12



John uses this unique phrase about water referring to natural birth in his epistle as well.


To try and force baptism into the narrative is not proper exegesis but rather it’s eisegesis which is projected your own preconceived, predetermined perspective into the passage.

The context is birth, not death.

Water baptism is about being baptized in the likeness of Hos death. Likeness is plainly a symbolic reference, not literal.


Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
John 3:3-8


The context, the subject matter, the topic of the discussion between Jesus and Nicodemus is birth; natural and spiritual birth which occurs by the Spirit.

Birth is mentioned 8 times in these 6 verses.

How many times is baptism mention? 0

The Spirit is the Baptizer, not man.

Man baptizes in water.


For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13


This baptism occurs before we are baptized in water.




JLB
 
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JLB said:
Jesus like John the Baptist, and later Paul, had to deal with the Jewish mindset that believed they were sons of God because they were the natural descendants (through natural birth) of Abraham.

Jesus is saying that we must be born again, which by default means we must be born first, in order to be born again.

By using natural birth, Jesus is using earthly things to teach Nicodemus heavenly (spiritual) things.


Jesus says this, then explains what He means in verse 6.


Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:5-6


Explanation —

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


Born of water = Natural Birth

Born of the Spirit = Spiritual Birth


If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? John 3:12



John uses this unique phrase about water referring to natural birth in his epistle as well.


To try and force baptism into the narrative is not proper exegesis but rather it’s eisegesis which is projected your own preconceived, predetermined perspective into the passage.

The context is birth, not death.

Water baptism is about being baptized in the likeness of Hos death. Likeness is plainly a symbolic reference, not literal.


Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
John 3:3-8


The context, the subject matter, the topic of the discussion between Jesus and Nicodemus is birth; natural and spiritual birth which occurs by the Spirit.

Birth is mentioned 8 times in these 6 verses.

How many times is baptism mention? 0

The Spirit is the Baptizer, not man.

Man baptizes in water.


For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13


This baptism occurs before we are baptized in water.




JLB
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There is nothing in the context that water means anything other than literal water or that Spirit is anything other than literal Spirit. You are trying to give a figurative meaning to water that is not in the context in order to avoid the obvious meaning of the role of water in the new birth, that being, water baptism.

Again, it makes no sense on the part of Jesus to tell a full grown man he "must be physically born" when it is obvious he ALREADY was physically born. Nicodemus had then already experienced the physical birth but not the spiritual. Hence the spiritual birth has nothing to do with the physical birth.

Jn 3:4 "Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"
Nicodemus understood the impossibility of being physically born a second time. Therefore he knew Jesus was not talking about the physical birth but did not understand the type of birth (spiritual) that Jesus was speaking about. By asking the question in v4, Nicodemus was trying to get Jesus to give a fuller meaning to "born again" in verse 3 which Jesus does in verse 5 although Nicodemus should have already known what 'born of water" means, Jn 3:10. For Nicodemus and other Pharisees knew of John's water baptism but rejected it Lk 7:30.

So both Jesus and Nicodemus understood the physical birth was not under consideration in Jn 3:3,5.

=======

1 Cor 12:13 the Spirit Himself does not do the baptizing. From the great commission, the one baptism of Eph 4;4-5 disciples (humans) did the baptizing. As in Acts 8 the Spirit sent for Phillip to teach and water baptize per the great commission. No need for Phillip if the Spirit was is personally doing the teaching and baptizing. Nor from the text was the eunuch "spirit baptized" but water baptized which is the "one baptism" of Eph 4. You posted "The Spirit is the Baptizer, not man" but Acts 8 shows otherwise.

How then how does the Spirit baptize? Just as Jesus baptized:
Jn 4:1-2 "When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)"
Verse 1 says Jesus baptized but verse 2 says Jesus baptized not. This is not a contradiction for Jesus did baptize but not personally but baptized by giving His authority to disciples to baptize. Likewise the Spirit baptizes just as Jesus, not personally but by giving His authority to baptize. From the great commission, disciples are to baptized 'in the name of" (by authority of) the Father Son and Holy Ghost. Hence men today are water baptized by other men by the authority of the Christ and the Spirit.
 
Ernest T. Bass said:
There is nothing in the context that water means anything other than literal water or that Spirit is anything other than literal Spirit. You are trying to give a figurative meaning to water that is not in the context in order to avoid the obvious meaning of the role of water in the new birth, that being, water baptism.

Again, it makes no sense on the part of Jesus to tell a full grown man he "must be physically born" when it is obvious he ALREADY was physically born. Nicodemus had then already experienced the physical birth but not the spiritual. Hence the spiritual birth has nothing to do with the physical birth.

Jn 3:4 "Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"
Nicodemus understood the impossibility of being physically born a second time. Therefore he knew Jesus was not talking about the physical birth but did not understand the type of birth (spiritual) that Jesus was speaking about. By asking the question in v4, Nicodemus was trying to get Jesus to give a fuller meaning to "born again" in verse 3 which Jesus does in verse 5 although Nicodemus should have already known what 'born of water" means, Jn 3:10. For Nicodemus and other Pharisees knew of John's water baptism but rejected it Lk 7:30.

So both Jesus and Nicodemus understood the physical birth was not under consideration in Jn 3:3,5.

=======

1 Cor 12:13 the Spirit Himself does not do the baptizing. From the great commission, the one baptism of Eph 4;4-5 disciples (humans) did the baptizing. As in Acts 8 the Spirit sent for Phillip to teach and water baptize per the great commission. No need for Phillip if the Spirit was is personally doing the teaching and baptizing. Nor from the text was the eunuch "spirit baptized" but water baptized which is the "one baptism" of Eph 4. You posted "The Spirit is the Baptizer, not man" but Acts 8 shows otherwise.

How then how does the Spirit baptize? Just as Jesus baptized:
Jn 4:1-2 "When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)"
Verse 1 says Jesus baptized but verse 2 says Jesus baptized not. This is not a contradiction for Jesus did baptize but not personally but baptized by giving His authority to disciples to baptize. Likewise the Spirit baptizes just as Jesus, not personally but by giving His authority to baptize. From the great commission, disciples are to baptized 'in the name of" (by authority of) the Father Son and Holy Ghost. Hence men today are water baptized by other men by the authority of the Christ and the Spirit.
Click to expand...


Come on brother.

You are very intelligent and have a good heart.

I know you can see.

Jesus plainly explains what He means in verse 5, by what He says in verse 6.


Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:5-6


born of water = that which is born of flesh

born of the Spirit = that which is born of the Spirit



JLB
 
JLB said:
Come on brother.

You are very intelligent and have a good heart.

I know you can see.

Jesus plainly explains what He means in verse 5, by what He says in verse 6.


Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:5-6


born of water = that which is born of flesh

born of the Spirit = that which is born of the Spirit



JLB
Click to expand...
There is no doubt in my mind 'born of water' refers to water baptism..

Jn 3:5--------------Spirit++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor 12:13------Spirit+++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>in the body
Tts 3:5----------Holy Ghost+++++++laver of water>>>>saved

Since the Bible does not contradict itself, and there is just one way to be saved then all three verses say the exact same thing with water = baptized = laver of water.

Jn 3:3-----except be born again>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>kingdom of God
Mt 7:21---doeth the will of God>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>enter the kingdom

Again, just one way to be saved then being born again requires a DOING the will of God. God has commanded water baptism, hence those that do God's will in submitting to water baptism are the ones the enter the kingdom.

Those that do not think water baptism is essential must find a way to get around "water", that water cannot mean literal water. They have no problem with Spirit meaning literal Spirit but cannot have water mean literal water.

Jn 3:6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

Jesus makes a distinction between physical birth which has nothing to do with the new birth. It is those who have ALREADY been physically born that are to be born again of water and of Spirit. The physical act of submitting to baptism can be seen but results in a spiritual birth that cannot be seen in God removing the body of sin, a spiritual circumcision made without hands. It is our spirit that under goes a change, not the physical flesh.

Jn 3:8 "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

Jesus is saying the Spirit blows/breathes where ever He pleases. The Spirit's voice (inspired word) is heard ("hearest the sound thereof") and this is how men are born again. It is by the Spirit's inspired word that the Spirit speaks and men hear that inspired word which brings about the new birth (1 Pet 1:23 - "born again...by the word"). The Spirit's word instructs men on how to be saved (water baptism) and those that obey His instructions are the ones born again/saved.

If Jn 3:3-5 born again consists of being born of water and if this "born of water" figuratively refers to the physical birth, then it makes no sense at all to tell men "ye MUST be physically born" when they are ALREADY are physically born. Nicodemus had ALREADY experienced the physical birth but being Jn 3:5 "born of water and of the spirit" is what he had NOT yet experienced.
 
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Ernest T. Bass said:
There is no doubt in my mind 'born of water' refers to water baptism..

Jn 3:5--------------Spirit++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor 12:13------Spirit+++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>in the body
Tts 3:5----------Holy Ghost+++++++laver of water>>>>saved
Click to expand...

I‘m sure you do believe that.

1 Corinthians 12:13 refers to the Spirit baptizing a person into Christ.

Water baptism is when man baptizes us in water.


JLB
 
Ernest T. Bass said:
No verse says Judas was never saved.
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True.


Judas was predestined with the others, to reign with Christ and the other Apostles in the age to come.


So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28


Judas was an Apostle, then became a traitor.

Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot who also became a traitor. Luke 6:16


How can a person be a traitor to a kingdom they were never in?




JLB
 
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JLB said:
I‘m sure you do believe that.

1 Corinthians 12:13 refers to the Spirit baptizing a person into Christ.

Water baptism is when man baptizes us in water.


JLB
Click to expand...
The Spirit Himself does not do the baptizing personally just as Christ baptized but not anyone personally, Jn 4:1-2.
Paul water baptized some of the Corinthians himself, 1 Cor 1:14,16 just as Phillip water baptized the eunuch which is the one baptism of Eph 4:4-5. Men can obey the command to be water baptized and will be held accountable for not being water baptized.

If being baptized personally by the Spirit is necessary to being saved and a person has not been baptized by the Spirit then whose fault is it that this person is lost? It would be the Spirit's fault and failure.

The Bible being its own best commentary clearly identifies the type of baptism in 1 Cor 12:13 as water baptism:

Jn 3:5--------------Spirit++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor 12:13------Spirit+++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>in the body
Tts 3:5----------Holy Ghost+++++++laver of water>>>>saved

There is a required doing on the part of man to enter the kingdom-body Matt 7:21. The Holy Spirit has already done His part in man's salvation by providing His inspired word instructing men on how to be saved. Those then that do what the Spirit says in submitting to water baptism are doing the will of the Father. Hence being baptized is a doing on the part of man and not an onus upon what the Spirit must do to man. 1 Cor 6:11 the verb 'washed' being middle voice (also Acts 22:16) has Paul telling the Corinthians "you had yourselves washed"...they had an active role and choice in being water baptized not something done passively to them by the Spirit. Those Corinthians were washed "in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God" which is the same baptism of the great commission (Mt 28:19-20) men water baptizing other men.
Note they were "washed.... by the Spirit of our God" therefore "by the Spirit" means they obeyed the Spirit's inspired revelation to submit themselves to water baptism and not passively baptized personally by the Spirit.
("Washed" in Acts 22:16 is imperative putting responsibility upon man to submit to water baptism.)

============================

In the context of 1 Cor 12 leading up to verse 13 we find that in Corinth they had been given many different gifts by the Spirit. The Corinthians were focusing more on the gifts rather than upon God/Spirit Who gave those gifts. Paul points out "Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit." and "For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;". All of their gifts came from the same one Spirit. "And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all." Again, Paul was trying to get them to take their focus away from the gifts and focus upon God/Spirit that gave them those gifts.

So why did Paul say "for by one Spirit are we all baptized" instead of saying "water baptized"? 1 Cor 12:13 begins with the explanatory preposition "for" tying v13 to what had just previously been said. Again, Paul tells them it was by one same Spirit who had given them those gifts. It is the one Spirit's inspired revelation telling men how to be saved.

"But why "baptized in one Spirit" rather than "baptized in water" if water baptism was in view? Because it suited Paul's purpose in his call for unity to stress the agent (by Spirit)..of their immersion rather than the element (water). The same Spirit, the one Spirit, who gave them their gifts was the one who led them to submit to one baptism.." (McGuiggan p. 172)"
(my emp)
 
Ernest T. Bass said:
Man is able to obey, that is man's part in salvation. Salvation is not God alone deciding for man. God's role in salvation has already been done in sending Christ to die for man. Man's role is obeying the Son Heb 5:9.

In the verse you cited it says "see you have purified your souls" shows man has a role in his own salvation. Like in Acts 2 Peter says the similar thing in telling them to "save yourselves". Peter again showing man's role in obedience to God.

IF man has no role in his own salvation (in choosing to obey Christ) and God/Holy Spirit alone determines man's eternal fate then those lost are due to Holy Spirit's failure in enabling.

1 Cor 12:3 the Holy Spirit is author of the word that teaches man about the Lord. So no man apart from the word can say Jesus is Lord separate from information supplied by the Spirit's word. If it were not for God's word, men would not know the mind/things of God, (1 Cor 2:11) would not even know about the Holy Spirit at all.
Click to expand...


The only “ Role” That man performs is being one who accepts a Free Gift....it just can’t GET any simpler .....
 
Ernest T. Bass said:
The Spirit Himself does not do the baptizing personally just as Christ baptized but not anyone personally, Jn 4:1-2.
Paul water baptized some of the Corinthians himself, 1 Cor 1:14,16 just as Phillip water baptized the eunuch which is the one baptism of Eph 4:4-5. Men can obey the command to be water baptized and will be held accountable for not being water baptized.

If being baptized personally by the Spirit is necessary to being saved and a person has not been baptized by the Spirit then whose fault is it that this person is lost? It would be the Spirit's fault and failure.

The Bible being its own best commentary clearly identifies the type of baptism in 1 Cor 12:13 as water baptism:

Jn 3:5--------------Spirit++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor 12:13------Spirit+++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>in the body
Tts 3:5----------Holy Ghost+++++++laver of water>>>>saved

There is a required doing on the part of man to enter the kingdom-body Matt 7:21. The Holy Spirit has already done His part in man's salvation by providing His inspired word instructing men on how to be saved. Those then that do what the Spirit says in submitting to water baptism are doing the will of the Father. Hence being baptized is a doing on the part of man and not an onus upon what the Spirit must do to man. 1 Cor 6:11 the verb 'washed' being middle voice (also Acts 22:16) has Paul telling the Corinthians "you had yourselves washed"...they had an active role and choice in being water baptized not something done passively to them by the Spirit. Those Corinthians were washed "in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God" which is the same baptism of the great commission (Mt 28:19-20) men water baptizing other men.
Note they were "washed.... by the Spirit of our God" therefore "by the Spirit" means they obeyed the Spirit's inspired revelation to submit themselves to water baptism and not passively baptized personally by the Spirit.
("Washed" in Acts 22:16 is imperative putting responsibility upon man to submit to water baptism.)

============================

In the context of 1 Cor 12 leading up to verse 13 we find that in Corinth they had been given many different gifts by the Spirit. The Corinthians were focusing more on the gifts rather than upon God/Spirit Who gave those gifts. Paul points out "Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit." and "For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;". All of their gifts came from the same one Spirit. "And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all." Again, Paul was trying to get them to take their focus away from the gifts and focus upon God/Spirit that gave them those gifts.

So why did Paul say "for by one Spirit are we all baptized" instead of saying "water baptized"? 1 Cor 12:13 begins with the explanatory preposition "for" tying v13 to what had just previously been said. Again, Paul tells them it was by one same Spirit who had given them those gifts. It is the one Spirit's inspired revelation telling men how to be saved.

"But why "baptized in one Spirit" rather than "baptized in water" if water baptism was in view? Because it suited Paul's purpose in his call for unity to stress the agent (by Spirit)..of their immersion rather than the element (water). The same Spirit, the one Spirit, who gave them their gifts was the one who led them to submit to one baptism.." (McGuiggan p. 172)"
(my emp)
Click to expand...

As I said previously,one could be Baptized with the waters of Niagara Falls and it would all be for naught if you were not Baptized into “The Body Of Christ”——- THAT is the one that Counts...
 
JLB said:
Jesus personally baptizes us with the Holy Spirit.

Man baptizes in water.

The Spirit baptizes us into Christ.


JLB
Click to expand...
Jesus does not baptize anyone today with the Holy Ghost. Men today submit to water baptism, as commanded by God, for remission of sins. The one baptism of Eph 4:4-5.
 
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