Paul's meaning of "gifts" in Rom 11:29

[FreeGrace]

As I say you have to first show us Israelites who had the free gifts of justification and eternal life, but who then did not believe anymore to prove your thesis that he's talking about those two specific gifts in regard to the Israelites in Romans 11:28-29. Can you do that? I don't think so.

No, I don't have to do any such thing.

Here are the facts from Romans:

1. Eternal life is a gift - 6:23
2. God's gifts are irrevocable - 11:29

If eternal life is revocable (your position), please prove it from Romans, where Paul wrote both 6:23 and 11:29.

If Paul excluded eternal life from Rom 11:29, the burden is on you to prove it from Romans.

The OP has pointed out 2 FACTS. Which fact do you disagree with or reject?

 

[JLB]

No, I don't have to do any such thing.

Here are the facts from Romans:

1. Eternal life is a gift - 6:23
2. God's gifts are irrevocable - 11:29

If eternal life is revocable (your position), please prove it from Romans, where Paul wrote both 6:23 and 11:29.

If Paul excluded eternal life from Rom 11:29, the burden is on you to prove it from Romans.

The OP has pointed out 2 FACTS. Which fact do you disagree with or reject?

19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in." 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.

Branches were broken off...Because of unbelief they were broken off.

Here are two indisputable facts.

The branches that "were" in the tree were broken off.

The branches that were in the tree and were broken off, were broken off because of unbelief.

In the tree... broken off because of of unbelief.

How did the wild olive branches [Gentiles] get grafted into the natural olive tree [The Abrahamic Covenant]?

Answer: By believing.


How did the natural olive branches [Jews] get removed from the natural olive tree?

Answer: Unbelief


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This is amusing. Freegrace is arguing that an Israelite's calling and election to the vine is irrevocable from the very passage that speaks of Israelites losing that calling and gifting because of unbelief.

So perhaps you would have a case....if it weren't for the fact that Paul talks about Israelites losing the calling and election you insist can't be revoked.

 

[FreeGrace]

19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in." 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.

Branches were broken off...Because of unbelief they were broken off.

Right. Paul was referring to Jews who NEVER believed. Not that they had believed and then were broken off.

Here are two indisputable facts.

The branches that "were" in the tree were broken off.

The branches that were in the tree and were broken off, were broken off because of unbelief.

In the tree... broken off because of of unbelief.

Remember that Paul is using figurative language to communicate truth. Because of initial unbelief, the Jews were "broken off", and IF they believe, they are grafted in.

You're going to have a very difficult time trying to prove that Paul was indicating Jews who used to believe but now don't.

Again, when the Bible speaks of unbelief, it always means NEVER believed.

You persist in the fantasy that if one who has believed at some point no longer believes, they revert to the exact same status as what the Bible calls "unbeliever".

However, such a view cannot reconcile the FACT that WHEN one believes, everything changes. They are SAVED, they are JUSTIFIED, they are FORGIVEN, they become CHILDREN of God, they possess ETERNAL LIFE.

These are all gifts, basically. Given by God. And God's gifts are irrevocable.

How did the wild olive branches [Gentiles] get grafted into the natural olive tree [The Abrahamic Covenant]?

Answer: By believing.

Absolutely!

How did the natural olive branches [Jews] get removed from the natural olive tree?

Answer: Unbelief. JLB

Until you prove that those Jews who were "broken off" used to believe, you have no point at all. And I know that you cannot prove that.

Please don't try to force figurative language to be literal. Both Jesus and Paul used figurative language with a decidedly agricultural tone. You're trying to literalize figurative language. Not acceptable.

I will repeat Scriptural truth: eternal life is a gift (Rom 6:23) from God (1 Jn 5:19) and is irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

You cannot prove otherwise.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Right. Paul was referring to Jews who NEVER believed. Not that they had believed and then were broken off.

So then how is this a proof text for your doctrine that you can believe, then not believe, and not lose what you got when you believed, lol?

 

[JLB]

This is amusing. Freegrace is arguing that an Israelite's calling and election to the vine is irrevocable from the very passage that speaks of Israelites losing that calling and gifting because of unbelief.

So perhaps you would have a case....if it weren't for the fact that Paul talks about Israelites losing the calling and election you insist can't be revoked.

Someone gets it!

 

[JLB]

Right. Paul was referring to Jews who NEVER believed. Not that they had believed and then were broken off.


Remember that Paul is using figurative language to communicate truth. Because of initial unbelief, the Jews were "broken off", and IF they believe, they are grafted in.

You're going to have a very difficult time trying to prove that Paul was indicating Jews who used to believe but now don't.

Again, when the Bible speaks of unbelief, it always means NEVER believed.

You persist in the fantasy that if one who has believed at some point no longer believes, they revert to the exact same status as what the Bible calls "unbeliever".

However, such a view cannot reconcile the FACT that WHEN one believes, everything changes. They are SAVED, they are JUSTIFIED, they are FORGIVEN, they become CHILDREN of God, they possess ETERNAL LIFE.

These are all gifts, basically. Given by God. And God's gifts are irrevocable.


Absolutely!


Until you prove that those Jews who were "broken off" used to believe, you have no point at all. And I know that you cannot prove that.

Please don't try to force figurative language to be literal. Both Jesus and Paul used figurative language with a decidedly agricultural tone. You're trying to literalize figurative language. Not acceptable.

I will repeat Scriptural truth: eternal life is a gift (Rom 6:23) from God (1 Jn 5:19) and is irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

You cannot prove otherwise.

How did the wild olive branches [Gentiles] get grafted into the natural olive tree [The Abrahamic Covenant]?


Where do we find that Romans 11:29 is applied to Gentiles?



JLB

 

[chessman]

How did the wild olive branches [Gentiles] get grafted into the natural olive tree [The Abrahamic Covenant]?

JLB

God grafted them in (and us) through their faith in Christ:

First, I give thanks to my God through Jesus Christ for all of you...​

Gifting us with Eternal Life, as Paul says later in his letter (Rom 6:23) to the gentiles in Rome.

Where do we find that Romans 11:29 is applied to Gentiles?

JLB

Umm, in the letter that Paul wrote and addressed to the Gentiles in Rome:

Romans 1:5-8 (LEB) ... among all the Gentiles on behalf of his name, among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ.

To all those in Rome who are loved by God, called to be saints. Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
​

Oh my, Paul says the Romans (Gentiles) are, and I quote, "called" twice and gives thanks to God for the grace and peace that God gifted them with, then calls God's gifts and callings irrevocable.

 

[FreeGrace]

So then how is this a proof text for your doctrine that you can believe, then not believe, and not lose what you got when you believed, lol?

I'll do this again:
Eternal life is a gift (Rom 6:23) that is given by God (1 Jn 5:11) that is irrevocable (Rom 11:29) WHEN a person believes (Jn 5:24).

What part of this sentence does not make sense? Or, what part of this sentence do you disagree with specifically?

My sentence provides 4 FACTS about eternal life.

What is it about eternal life being irrevocable that you do not understand?

The real issue for you is WHY do you believe that eternal life IS revocable? What verse says so?

 

[FreeGrace]

How did the wild olive branches [Gentiles] get grafted into the natural olive tree [The Abrahamic Covenant]?

By believing. The real question is where in Scripture do you find any mention of eternal life being revocable?

Where do we find that Romans 11:29 is applied to Gentiles?
JLB

Uh, easy. Paul wrote to Roman believers, MOST of whom were Gentiles.

I'm still waiting for proof that Paul excluded eternal life from Rom 11:29. Where is it?

 

[JLB]

God grafted them in (and us) through their faith in Christ:

First, I give thanks to my God through Jesus Christ for all of you...​

Gifting us with Eternal Life, as Paul says later in his letter (Rom 6:23) to the gentiles in Rome.


Umm, in the letter that Paul wrote and addressed to the Gentiles in Rome:

Romans 1:5-8 (LEB) ... among all the Gentiles on behalf of his name, among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ.

To all those in Rome who are loved by God, called to be saints. Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
​

Oh my, Paul says the Romans (Gentiles) are, and I quote, "called" twice and gives thanks to God for the grace and peace that God gifted them with, then calls God's gifts and callings irrevocable.

Where do we find that Romans 11:29 is applied to Gentiles?

Romans 11:29 and the context of the subject that Paul is addressing.

1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins." 28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

The context of what states in Romans 11:29 is applied to the Natural Children of Israel.

Paul is making some points about God's dealing with his countryman.

Paul states that God has stilled called them and will continue to call them, and that they will be saved if they believe.



JLB

 

[JLB]

I'll do this again:
Eternal life is a gift (Rom 6:23) that is given by God (1 Jn 5:11) that is irrevocable (Rom 11:29) WHEN a person believes (Jn 5:24).

What part of this sentence does not make sense? Or, what part of this sentence do you disagree with specifically?

My sentence provides 4 FACTS about eternal life.

What is it about eternal life being irrevocable that you do not understand?

The real issue for you is WHY do you believe that eternal life IS revocable? What verse says so?

The OP subject matter is Gifts.

I will have the Moderators delete any post's that are OSAS related.

I'll respond again.

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

No where in this verse does it say eternal life is irrevocable.


A person would have to take another verse and use it out of context, and mix it together with Romans 11:29 to come up with a far fetched doctrine like that.


JLB

 

[chessman]

Where do we find that Romans 11:29 is applied to Gentiles?

Romans 11:29 and the context of the subject that Paul is addressing.

1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins." 28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

The context of what states in Romans 11:29 is applied to the Natural Children of Israel.

Paul is making some points about God's dealing with his countryman.

Paul states that God has stilled called them and will continue to call them, and that they will be saved if they believe.



JLB

Romans 10:1 Brothers, the desire of my heart and my prayer to God on behalf of them is for their salvation.
​

Paul is using "them" (Israel) as an example (one of several he using throughout his letter). Moses, is another example given in chapter 10. But the point is, he was writing to the gentile Romans. It just so happens he wrote to the Romans about how faithful God is with His gifts and callings.

Evidently you agree that 11:1 is in context since you quoted it to me. I agree. In fact, what does 11:1 say?

"I say then" or "therefore" (LEB) ... It's all one big listing of examples of just how faithful God is.

Chapter 10 and 11 are both listing supporting examples that God's gifts (all of em) are irrevocable.

It makes about as much difference, with respect to the irrevocability of gifts, that God gives it to a Gentile or a Jew or a Roman as it does whether He gives it to a left handed person or a right handed person.

 

[FreeGrace]

Paul states that God has stilled called them and will continue to call them, and that they will be saved if they believe. JLB

In fact, the gift of God is irrevocable. Eternal life is given WHEN a person believes (Jn 5:24) and is irrevocable (11:29).

This is irrefutable.

 

[FreeGrace]

The OP subject matter is Gifts.

No where in this verse does it say eternal life is irrevocable.

A person would have to take another verse and use it out of context, and mix it together with Romans 11:29 to come up with a far fetched doctrine like that.JLB

Please answer these questions, simple yes or no:

1. Is eternal life a gift? (Rom 6:23)
2. Is eternal life given by God? (1 Jn 5:11)
3. Are God's gifts irrevocable? (Rom 11:29)

These are straight forward questions and I've given Scripture to help you answer these questions.

Now, one more question:

Which verse says that salvation can be lost? I don't mean "interpolation". I mean directly says that.

 

[FreeGrace]

Romans 10:1 Brothers, the desire of my heart and my prayer to God on behalf of them is for their salvation.
​

Paul is using "them" (Israel) as an example (one of several he using throughout his letter). Moses, is another example given in chapter 10. But the point is, he was writing to the gentile Romans. It just so happens he wrote to the Romans about how faithful God is with His gifts and callings.

Evidently you agree that 11:1 is in context since you quoted it to me. I agree. In fact, what does 11:1 say?

"I say then" or "therefore" (LEB) ... It's all one big listing of examples of just how faithful God is.

Chapter 10 and 11 are both listing supporting examples that God's gifts (all of em) are irrevocable.

It makes about as much difference, with respect to the irrevocability of gifts, that God gives it to a Gentile or a Jew or a Roman as it does whether He gives it to a left handed person or a right handed person.

Whew!! I'm left handed and was maybe kinda wondering whether that might be a problem.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This is crazy. Freegrace is using Israel's calling and gifts--which do not include justification and eternal life--in a passage that explains how past generations of Israelites forsook their calling and lost their gifts to prove that God's gifts of justification and eternal life can not be taken back no matter what.

What you have to do for the text to prove your point is show where it says these past generations of Israelites who had the calling and gifts of God, but lost them, did not have them revoked. Which is contradictory. So, the only way for Paul to explain how past Israelites lost the calling and gifts of God, and then say the calling and gifts of Israel are irrevocable without contradicting himself is for Paul to be speaking of the Israelites as a nation, not as individual Israelites who have lost a calling and gifts that can not be revoked (that does not even make sense).

 

[FreeGrace]

This is crazy. Freegrace is using Israel's calling and gifts--which do not include justification and eternal life--

This is surely crazy. Paul had earlier in his letter to the Romans described both justification, which is by faith, and eternal life, which is by faith, as gifts. And even though one can consider what God gave Israel as gifts, Paul never called any of them gifts. Further, no where in Scripture are the things God gave to Israel described as gifts.

Yet, both justification and eternal life ARE described that way. And Paul says that God's gifts are irrevocable.

--in a passage that explains how past generations of Israelites forsook their calling and lost their gifts to prove that God's gifts of justification and eternal life can not be taken back no matter what.

This makes absolutely no sense. Nothing Paul wrote is about what "can not be taken back" in the sense of "once lost, never to be re-given", which is what your sentence seems to be communicating.

The whole point is clearly stated in Rom 11:29 - God's gifts are irrevocable. iow, God does NOT take His gifts back. That is the point, which seems to be totally lost on you.

What you have to do for the text to prove your point is show where it says these past generations of Israelites who had the calling and gifts of God, but lost them, did not have them revoked.

Those Jews who NEVER believed NEVER had the gifts. That is the point.

Which is contradictory. So, the only way for Paul to explain how past Israelites lost the calling and gifts of God, and then say the calling and gifts of Israel are irrevocable without contradicting himself is for Paul to be speaking of the Israelites as a nation, not as individual Israelites who have lost a calling and gifts that can not be revoked (that does not even make sense).

Nothing of what you post here makes any sense. All because you refuse to accept that eternal life, a gift from God, is irrevocable. Even if Paul were only speaking of Jews as a nation, you still have the glaring contradiction that the nation lost its gifts and calling, which completely contradicts the clear words of Rom 11:29.

You've given no support or proof at all for your view of Rom 11:29 as excluding the gifts of justification and eternal life.

Your view is that God's gifts ARE revocable; clearly contrary to God's Word.

Eternal life is a gift (Rom 6:23).
Eternal life is given by God (1 Jn 5:11).
God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

This isn't difficult at all.

When God gives a gift, it is irrevocable. Always.

 

[FreeGrace]

This is crazy. Freegrace is using Israel's calling and gifts--which do not include justification and eternal life--in a passage that explains how past generations of Israelites forsook their calling and lost their gifts to prove that God's gifts of justification and eternal life can not be taken back no matter what.

It would be very helpful if you could specify the gifts and calling that the nation of Israel lost. Specifically.

And then explain why they lost that which Paul said was irrevocable.

 

[smaller]

This is crazy. Freegrace is using Israel's calling and gifts--which do not include justification and eternal life--in a passage that explains how past generations of Israelites forsook their calling and lost their gifts to prove that God's gifts of justification and eternal life can not be taken back no matter what.

What you have to do for the text to prove your point is show where it says these past generations of Israelites who had the calling and gifts of God, but lost them, did not have them revoked. Which is contradictory. So, the only way for Paul to explain how past Israelites lost the calling and gifts of God, and then say the calling and gifts of Israel are irrevocable without contradicting himself is for Paul to be speaking of the Israelites as a nation, not as individual Israelites who have lost a calling and gifts that can not be revoked (that does not even make sense).

In the light of our previous conversation Jethro, you should understand that the Word came to CARNAL NATURAL Israel. Just as the Word comes to us in our CARNAL FORMS.

And that arrival and it's workings within them is irrevocable, just as it is with us. It was their carnal nation that was to bring forth The Flesh Son of God. God will not toss them aside and never has. Paul was quite clear that God has neither abandoned nor forsaken Israel.

Romans 11
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid:

Israel is a picture of the carnal fallen judged man engaging in Gods Full Intentions to make spiritual sons and daughters.

It is true that all carnal men will find their place in the dust including our own bodies. But that was never the End Game in Gods Eyes.

God Has Better Things In Mind.