Perfect Tense for "saved" proves eternal security

[GodsGrace]

Sorry,if you fail to understand, then I shouldn't have said what I did.
Roman Catholicism is not allowed here.

We're not discussing RC, but if you meant earning money to forgive sins. (In the past), yes, its abhorant.

 

[smaller]

You have an interesting perspective which I don't totally understand.
I'd like to say that universalism cannot be true.
Calvinism presents me with a God who, before time, picked some of His created humans to go to hell.
Is this a God one could love?
I think not.

There isn't ONE LICK of difference between the freewill position and the determinist position on this matter. People wind up in hell in either case of sights. How they got there is quite irrelevant to the bottom line in either case.

Freewill people think they are better because their form of God gives everyone a 'chance' at salvation. Determinists KNOW that God is the only vote that counts.

 

[GodsGrace]

There isn't ONE LICK of difference between the freewill position and the determinist position on this matter. People wind up in hell in either case of sights. How they got there is quite irrelevant to the bottom line in either case.

Freewill people think they are better because their form of God gives everyone a 'chance' at salvation. Determinists KNOW that God is the only vote that counts.

I agree with what you said about churches in your previous post and agree.
God needs nothing from me but my heart.
As to the above: are you saying we cannot know if we are really following God or not?

 

[smaller]

I agree with what you said about churches in your previous post and agree.
God needs nothing from me but my heart.
As to the above: are you saying we cannot know if we are really following God or not?

It is not my job to erect iron bars blockading the Gate of Heaven. That's what hypocrites do.

Matthew 23:13
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Every last one of you casting aside anyone to hell is in the above category.

Did you hear the Good News, that Christ opened the PRISON DOORS?

When I want to see judgment, I have a very easy and close place to look, just as Paul looked upon his own flesh, his own indwelling sin, his own evil present with him. Don't you know it is our HOPE to be rid of these conditions by OUR SAVIOR?

 

[smaller]

When we bear our witness of Christ, it is to ALL the people in the world:

Luke 14
21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.

22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.

23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.

Do any of us see some kind of BLOCKADE being presented here?

 

[GodsGrace]

It is not my job to erect iron bars blockading the Gate of Heaven. That's what hypocrites do.

Matthew 23:13
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Every last one of you casting aside anyone to hell is in the above category.

Did you hear the Good News, that Christ opened the PRISON DOORS?

When I want to see judgment, I have a very easy and close place to look, just as Paul looked upon his own flesh, his own indwelling sin, his own evil present with him. Don't you know it is our HOPE to be rid of these conditions by OUR SAVIOR?

We all have evil present within us. So?
Did Jesus not come to show us the way?
What did He come here for then?
What was it all about?
What is Mathew 5 to 7 all about?
Was HE shutting up the Kingdom doors too?
Did He state any conditions for going through the prison doors??
I think He did. Whether we like it or not.

 

[smaller]

I have had the occasion to speak with many believers near their deaths.

For those who really did live a good life, apart from judgment and condemnation of others, they only had one regret. "I wish I had LOVED MORE!"

For the majority, the many more who I might have considered "legalistic" heaven blockaders they had a different request: "Pray for ME!"

I remain in the former category. There is never enough time for LOVE in the here and now.

Romans 13:8-10 is our call.

There is, in the final analysis, only ONE THING! Only ONE THING that counts!

Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

Do you see how EASY it is to "keep score?!"

 

[smaller]

We all have evil present within us. So?
Did Jesus not come to show us the way?
What did He come here for then?
What was it all about?
What is Mathew 5 to 7 all about?
Was HE shutting up the Kingdom doors too?
Did He state any conditions for going through the prison doors??
I think He did. Whether we like it or not.

Jesus didn't come to make you or I or anyone else "sinless" in this present life.

He called us to SHINE FROM THE DARKNESS.

 

[FreeGrace]

I'm at a real disadvantage. No computer no bible.
Just imagine if I had those what I could do!!

I have no idea.

1. I might have misguoted a bit but:
" saved for a time" or " believe for a while" = same difference...

That, ma'am, is just an opinion, and without any evidence.

2. This is NOT an opinion. Please read some history of the church.

No, the "church", whatever that means, doesn't determine what the words themselves mean. And no one YET has provided any evidence that being "saved for a time" equals "believing for a time". Pure opinion.

3. Justification IS a gift from God.
Eternal life also, AFTER we're dead.

So that's how you twist it? Where does the Bible say that gifts are AFTER we're dead?? Please provide some evidence for your claims.

4. Grace?
No question BUT, I do beg everyone to read the didache.

I've learned everything I need to know about grace from the Bible. God's word, not man's words.

I've asked for evidence from Scripture to support your 3 claims. Please show me some.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus didn't come to make you or I or anyone else "sinless" in this present life.

He called us to SHINE FROM THE DARKNESS.

Who said we're sinless??
Have you been reading along?

 

[FreeGrace]

No bible here.
Care to post your verses?

I'd love to share the truth.

Paul stated that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, or "whether we are asleep or awake, we will be together with Him" in 1 Thess 5:10. The context begins in v.4 and contrasts believers with unbelievers, or day with night, or being alert with being asleep or sober with drunkeness.

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;

5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;

6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.

7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.

8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Analysis of this passage:

v.4 tells us that believers are "not in darkness"

v.5 differentiates believers (sons of light and day) with unbelievers (not of night or darkness).

v.6 encourages believers to not live like unbelievers (not sleep as others do, but be alert and sober).

v.7 describes unbelievers and what they do.

v.8 explains that "since we are of the day" (believers), we need to be sober.

v.9 explains the destiny of the believer - not destined for wrath but for salvation

v.10 says that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, we will live together with Him.

Care to provide a detailed explanation, as I have, that leads to a different conclusion?

 

[GodsGrace]

I have no idea.


That, ma'am, is just an opinion, and without any evidence.


No, the "church", whatever that means, doesn't determine what the words themselves mean. And no one YET has provided any evidence that being "saved for a time" equals "believing for a time". Pure opinion.


So that's how you twist it? Where does the Bible say that gifts are AFTER we're dead?? Please provide some evidence for your claims.


I've learned everything I need to know about grace from the Bible. God's word, not man's words.

I've asked for evidence from Scripture to support your 3 claims. Please show me some.

FreeGrace, there's a real language barrier here.
I keep telling you I have no bible right now.
Anyone who knows the bible knows I've stated nothing that is incorrect.
If you want to believe you cannot fall away, as scripture plainly states, that is your prerogative.
I just pray that any new Christian reading along does not get confused.

If the bible speaks of Falling Away, it must mean that one could.
I believe Jesus and the writers of the NT did not use phrases they did not mean to be important.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Great! Then I'll consider taking your car AND house keys! Thanks for the tip.

Sheesh. It appears I'm not the one unfamiliar with law. lol"

Cute.
If you rent an apt, who. " owns" it, you or the renter??

Why do you keep changing the subject?

But the answer to this question is the landowner, not the renter.

Are you allowed to enter their apt at will??
No. For those reading along.

Irrelevant, as the renter doesn't own the apartment.

Car. Are YOU driving your car if someone has stolen it, or are they??

They are in possession of my stolen car until the law catches up with them.

And what if the serial no is changed? How do you prove it's even yours?
But we digress...

No kidding!! How about getting back on track? I'm still waiting for verses that support your claims.

 

[FreeGrace]

¿


Regarding continuing to sin.
You should be intellectually honest. You know very well that I said we are safe from all sin as long as we believe.

OK, how about including yourself in being intellectually honest? Where does the Bible teach that we are safe from all sin "as long as..." anything?? Please QUIT adding words to Scripture that AREN'T THERE.

You don't seem to be really listening to me whereas I understand your position very well.

The reason I have been refuting your position is because I have really been listening.

 

[FreeGrace]

1 Corinthians 9:24-27
24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26 Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

Does Paul count?
What does it mean to "preached to others" and yet be himself "disqualified for the prize".

Those who misunderstand Scripture and think that the "prize" is salvation are not approved workmen, nor do they rightly divide the word of truth, per 2 Tim 2:15.

As such, I see no point in further discussion of the other verses posted.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Who said we're sinless??
Have you been reading along?

Somewhere in the previous 230 posts, someone mentioned sinless.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'd love to share the truth.

Paul stated that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, or "whether we are asleep or awake, we will be together with Him" in 1 Thess 5:10. The context begins in v.4 and contrasts believers with unbelievers, or day with night, or being alert with being asleep or sober with drunkeness.

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;

5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;

6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.

7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.

8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Analysis of this passage:

v.4 tells us that believers are "not in darkness"

v.5 differentiates believers (sons of light and day) with unbelievers (not of night or darkness).

v.6 encourages believers to not live like unbelievers (not sleep as others do, but be alert and sober).

v.7 describes unbelievers and what they do.

v.8 explains that "since we are of the day" (believers), we need to be sober.

v.9 explains the destiny of the believer - not destined for wrath but for salvation

v.10 says that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, we will live together with Him.

Care to provide a detailed explanation, as I have, that leads to a different conclusion?

You've provided it FreeGrace.
You said that believers are not encouraged to live as unbelievers more than one time, in fact.

Then you said no matter how we live, our lifestyle, we will be with Him.

And thus you have proved my long-held point and why I argue this doctrine.

Belief in this doctrine allows one to have the LIFESTYLE they want and still be saved.

This is not what Jesus taught.
Read the beatitudes. Jesus' mission was to pay for our sins and to teach us how to be pleasing to God.
And it is Not by living whatever " lifestyle" we find attractive.

 

[GodsGrace]

OK, how about including yourself in being intellectually honest? Where does the Bible teach that we are safe from all sin "as long as..." anything?? Please QUIT adding words to Scripture that AREN'T THERE.


The reason I have been refuting your position is because I have really been listening.

Again:
We are safe from all sin as long as we have faith and believe.
John 3:16
Ephesians 2:8
2 peter 2:22

 

[GodsGrace]

Somewhere in the previous 230 posts, someone mentioned sinless.

No one is sinless.
Not before salvation and not after.
Only Jesus is sinless.

Just to clarify...

 

[FreeGrace]

It's not in scripture that it is our faith that saves us?

Actually, it's our Savior who saves us. And note that in Eph 2:8 "faith" is a noun, not a verb. As a noun, it refers to the foundation of what we believe, Jesus as Savior.

Try Ephesians 2:8

I have. Now, your turn. And the verse doesn't say that our faith saves us.
Eph 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—NIV

See? We are saved BY GRACE. Which is THROUGH FAITH. By grace, through faith.

What happens when we no longer have that faith?
2 Peter 2:22 comes to mind.
( hope I got the verse correct)

2 Peter 2:22
Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud." NIV

Now, please explain how this verse supports your claim.

But to answer your question, when we no longer have that faith, we are faithless.

Consider 2 Tim 2:13 if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself. NIV

Are you aware that WHEN one believes, they are indwelt with the Holy Spirit, and sealed with Him, FOR the day of redemption, per Eph 1:13,14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession — to the praise of his glory. NIV

So, the Holy Spirit is a deposit to GUARANTEE our inheritance, as God's possession.

These 2 verses are clearly about eternal security. Unless one can find ANY exceptions to this promise. Be my guest.