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Perfect Tense for "saved" proves eternal security

FreeGrace said:
Those who misunderstand Scripture and think that the "prize" is salvation are not approved workmen, nor do they rightly divide the word of truth, per 2 Tim 2:15.

As such, I see no point in further discussion of the other verses posted.
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Umm.
Maybe YOU are misunderstanding scripture??
 
The Perfect tense in no way suggests or implies that the completed action that the Perfect Tense verb caused and which continues to be completed up to the present can never end, nor be reversed:

From: http://www.ntgreek.net/lesson23.htm

If you remember that the meaning of the word perfect is complete, then you can remember that the perfect tense has to do with completed action. But the perfect tense is a primary tense because it emphasizes the present, or ongoing result of a completed action. The perfect tense in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and is illustrated in the following sentences. In each sentence, observe what is suggested about the present status.

I have learned the material in the previous lesson.

This indicates a present status: I still know the material in the previous lesson.

She has made a cake for dessert.

The implication is that the cake is now available to be served for dessert.

The grass has grown tall.

It is still tall and needs to be mowed.
​
If it's true that the Perfect Tense means that the results of the completed action (i.e. material learned, cakes made, grass that is grown) can not, and will not end, then that means in all the examples above you will never forget the material learned, the cake will always be made and available to eat (not in my house, trust me), and the grass will always be tall and will never be cut or dry up.

We don't even need to debate doctrine to know that the OP is false. By virtue of what the Perfect Tense represents we know that it is not implied at all that the salvation that believing solicits must, by virtue of the Perfect Tense, continue forever and ever with no possibility of it ceasing.

Case closed.
 
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Jethro Bodine said:
The Perfect tense in no way suggests or implies that the completed action that has continued results up to the present can never end nor be reversed:

From: http://www.ntgreek.net/lesson23.htm

If you remember that the meaning of the word perfect is complete, then you can remember that the perfect tense has to do with completed action. But the perfect tense is a primary tense because it emphasizes the present, or ongoing result of a completed action. The perfect tense in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and is illustrated in the following sentences. In each sentence, observe what is suggested about the present status.

I have learned the material in the previous lesson.

This indicates a present status: I still know the material in the previous lesson.

She has made a cake for dessert.

The implication is that the cake is now available to be served for dessert.

The grass has grown tall.

It is still tall and needs to be mowed.
​
If it's true that the Perfect Tense means that the results of the completed action (i.e. material learned, cakes made, grass that is grown) can not, and will not end, then that means in all the examples above you will never forget the material learned, the cake will always be made and available to eat (not in my house, trust me), and the grass will always be tall and will never be cut.

We don't even need to debate doctrine to know that the OP is false. By virtue of what the Perfect Tense represents we know that it is not implied at all that the salvation that believing solicits must, by virtue of the Perfect Tense, continue forever and ever with no possibility of it ceasing.

Case closed.
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Case closed?
I haven't given an answer yet.
Case opened!
Now sit and wait until I am ready to answer you.
 
FreeGrace said:
Actually, it's our Savior who saves us. And note that in Eph 2:8 "faith" is a noun, not a verb. As a noun, it refers to the foundation of what we believe, Jesus as Savior.


I have. Now, your turn. And the verse doesn't say that our faith saves us.
Eph 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—NIV

See? We are saved BY GRACE. Which is THROUGH FAITH. By grace, through faith.


2 Peter 2:22
Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud." NIV

Now, please explain how this verse supports your claim.

But to answer your question, when we no longer have that faith, we are faithless.

Consider 2 Tim 2:13 if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself. NIV

Are you aware that WHEN one believes, they are indwelt with the Holy Spirit, and sealed with Him, FOR the day of redemption, per Eph 1:13,14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession — to the praise of his glory. NIV

So, the Holy Spirit is a deposit to GUARANTEE our inheritance, as God's possession.

These 2 verses are clearly about eternal security. Unless one can find ANY exceptions to this promise. Be my guest.
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1. The nonsence of being saved by grace or faith is just that.
Of course grace is involved. We're like ants to God in terms of substance and nature, if He didn't love us where would we be.
OK. So now we know He loves us and grace is involved.
Great. O K, so now what is it that saves us???
Our FAITH in Him.
No faith
No saved

Wondering
 
FreeGrace said:
Actually, it's our Savior who saves us. And note that in Eph 2:8 "faith" is a noun, not a verb. As a noun, it refers to the foundation of what we believe, Jesus as Savior.


I have. Now, your turn. And the verse doesn't say that our faith saves us.
Eph 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—NIV

See? We are saved BY GRACE. Which is THROUGH FAITH. By grace, through faith.


2 Peter 2:22
Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud." NIV

Now, please explain how this verse supports your claim.

But to answer your question, when we no longer have that faith, we are faithless.

Consider 2 Tim 2:13 if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself. NIV

Are you aware that WHEN one believes, they are indwelt with the Holy Spirit, and sealed with Him, FOR the day of redemption, per Eph 1:13,14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession — to the praise of his glory. NIV

So, the Holy Spirit is a deposit to GUARANTEE our inheritance, as God's possession.

These 2 verses are clearly about eternal security. Unless one can find ANY exceptions to this promise. Be my guest.
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BTW
Did you know that kings would send " sealed" messages? Important messages with instructions that had to be followed.

Did you know that those sealed messages could be rescinded?
 
I said this:
"No, the "church", whatever that means, doesn't determine what the words themselves mean. And no one YET has provided any evidence that being "saved for a time" equals "believing for a time". Pure opinion.

So that's how you twist it? Where does the Bible say that gifts are AFTER we're dead?? Please provide some evidence for your claims.

I've learned everything I need to know about grace from the Bible. God's word, not man's words.

I've asked for evidence from Scripture to support your 3 claims. Please show me some."
wondering said:
FreeGrace, there's a real language barrier here.
I keep telling you I have no bible right now.
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When wait to post until after you get home. Or, if at home, after you've gone to the store to buy a Bible.

All you've done is make claims that haven't been supported by Scripture. If you know something to be true, it would follow that you know the verse or verses that support your claim. Unless one just makes stuff up.

Anyone who knows the bible knows I've stated nothing that is incorrect.
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Another opinion. Since you argue for loss of salvation, that is quite incorrect.

If you want to believe you cannot fall away, as scripture plainly states, that is your prerogative.
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Of course I know that people can fall away. But no one has yet provided any evidence that falling from faith equals falling from salvation.

Until supported by clear Scripture, it will remain just another opinion.

If the bible speaks of Falling Away, it must mean that one could.
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I sure does. Now, prove that ceasing to believe (falling away) equates to ceasing to be saved.
 
wondering said:
You've provided it FreeGrace.
You said that believers are not encouraged to live as unbelievers more than one time, in fact.

Then you said no matter how we live, our lifestyle, we will be with Him.

And thus you have proved my long-held point and why I argue this doctrine.

Belief in this doctrine allows one to have the LIFESTYLE they want and still be saved.
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I asked for a detailed explanation of the passage, as I did, that leads to a different conclusion. And all I get is more opinion.

This is not what Jesus taught.
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So, please provide a detailed explanation of the passage, as I did, that leads to a different conclusion.

Read the beatitudes. Jesus' mission was to pay for our sins and to teach us how to be pleasing to God.
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Because Jesus DID pay for our sins, sins CANNOT be an issue in salvation. Which also means that sin cannot lead to loss of salvation.

And it is Not by living whatever " lifestyle" we find attractive.
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So, please explain the passage.
 
wondering said:
Again:
We are safe from all sin as long as we have faith and believe.
John 3:16
Ephesians 2:8
2 peter 2:22
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None of these verses support your opinion. There is no "as long as..." in the Bible in regard to salvation.

If there were, why hasn't anyone provided it yet?
 
FreeGrace said:
I said this:
"Great! Then I'll consider taking your car AND house keys! Thanks for the tip.

Sheesh. It appears I'm not the one unfamiliar with law. lol"

Why do you keep changing the subject?

But the answer to this question is the landowner, not the renter.


Irrelevant, as the renter doesn't own the apartment.


They are in possession of my stolen car until the law catches up with them.


No kidding!! How about getting back on track? I'm still waiting for verses that support your claims.
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Please rent an apt.
Now enter it without the renters permission.
See what happens when they call the police.
Report back.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
The Perfect tense in no way suggests or implies that the completed action that has continued results up to the present can never end nor be reversed:
Click to expand...

Still missing the point, I see.

If salvation can be lost, the perfect tense could not be used, since the verse didn't include any exceptions to the on-going results of being saved between time of belief and the present.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
Did you see that I explained that my wife talked in tongues? That proves she had the Holy Spirit in salvation, and that she didn't have some kind of quasi-faith that was inadequate to justify/save. The gifts of the Spirit are only given to the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:27-28 NASB). She believed for a while, then stopped believing, and, I will point out, lost the gift of tongues. You know, those gifts that many think are irrevocable because of an erroneous, out of context interpretation of Romans 11:28-29 NASB.
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Hi Jethro. Sometimes I don't get back to these threads and respond, because they are exhausting to my soul. I did want to respond to you though. You and I have spoke about your wife's faith before. I understand where you get your understanding of scripture. (God reveals to you and you look at your life also). I do this too. There are people in my life where I lump them into the category of believer/unbeliever. That is our nature to do that. But when the rubber meets the road, I refrain from that ultimate label.

I want to speak to your personal testimony about Jesus. Are you going to stop believing he is who he said he is? Don't worry about people who are on the fence about him. We are speaking of people who can't deny the truth, because they have been given the truth.
 
wondering said:
1. The nonsence of being saved by grace or faith is just that.
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Wow. Since that is exactly what Eph 2:8 SAYS. But at least you're admitting your opinion that Eph 2:8 is nonsense.

I guess there's really nothing else to discuss, given that frame of reference.

Of course grace is involved. We're like ants to God in terms of substance and nature, if He didn't love us where would we be.
OK. So now we know He loves us and grace is involved.
Great. O K, so now what is it that saves us???
Our FAITH in Him.
No faith
No saved
Wondering
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How come NO ONE has found any verse that says this??
 
FreeGrace said:
This is STILL a faulty judgment of what I think. Stop it.


No, let's not violate the rules of the forum.


He said a lot of things. What did you have in mind?
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You know, about you're belief that works are not necessary.
I believe James disagrees with you
And I tend to trust Him.
 
wondering said:
BTW
Did you know that kings would send " sealed" messages? Important messages with instructions that had to be followed.

Did you know that those sealed messages could be rescinded?
Click to expand...
let's stop with the distractions and smoke and mirrors, ok? We're not talking about some document that was sealed with wax.

We're talking about the Holy Spirit Himself being our seal, which is a guarantee for the day of redemption.

Not the same. no comparison.

But, to your last opinion, where does the Bible teach that the promised Holy Spirit can be "rescinded" for any reason?

iow, if there are any such verses, please ensure there is a reason for it. In the verse.
 
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