Perfect Tense for "saved" proves eternal security

[smaller]

The perpetual difficulties with these questions is that they are always one sided. Though I agree with the OSAS fact, that fact does have limits in the "here and now." It is not therefore as encompassing as the claimants want to see it.

For this I would trot out Paul's statements of facts about himself, in Romans 7, in Romans 9, in 2 Cor. 12, from Galatians, from 1 Tim. 1 and in many other places where JUDGMENT is required. OSAS is largely VOID from applications of "personal adverse judgments." It seeks to see the believers only through ONE EYE of scriptures. It doesn't work that way. In the long haul, after we pass from the flesh, FINE. But that is a later status. In the meantime OSAS is not an "all encompassing sight" for any of us. And this is what the other side of the camp looks at, rightfully so to a certain extent.

Does eternal life, by faith, exist for us in Christ, that is, with SINNERS? Absolutely this is TRUE. But there is a clear line of distinction between GRACE and SIN. Between GOOD and EVIL. We can not reasonably, logically extend OSAS to EVIL and to SIN. NOR can we just casually brush aside these facts as if they are MEANINGLESS under the guises of OSAS.

We can NOT look at Paul and only see OSAS, while Paul inhabited the flesh body. It's impossible to derive "only that" OSAS sight. Is OSAS there? Of course! But that is NOT the only matter involved for him, or for us in the here and now. We can try, quite vainly, to cover the entirety of what we are and consist of in the here and now with OSAS, but that will not and can not cut the mustard of scriptures. It is therefore only a partial truth, good as it is.

In the meantime, the other side of the ledgers beat and bang their own heads up against insurmountable walls themselves. Vainly trying to claim "non-sinner/non-evil" status by their actions, thereby claiming they DESERVE eternal life by their works. Which is, sorry, an entire waste of time. Paul never taught any of us that we, in and of ourselves by our own merits, earned or gained eternal life. There is no way to eliminate the Spirit of Christ from our equations. We don't and can't make Christ in us any more or any less than what He Actually IS, within us.

As usual, the real problems are where the most interesting dissections of this subject reside. And nary a believer really cares to look accurately at this side of the scriptural equations.

For the short version, just take a look, CLOSE LOOK, at Paul, here:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

I don't care what any OSAS believer claims. While they are making their OSAS claims the fact in RED above will stare us both in the face and I can only say, "who's leg are you trying to pull?" The matter in RED is there for both of us to see. Do I see you or me, here and now, as only OSAS? Nope!!! Not possible.

And to the other camp, I'd say the same thing. No matter how much religious paste you apply to the fact in RED above, that party is still staring us both in the face. No matter how 'GOOD' you think you are, the messenger of Satan is not going to be moving on past our dust piles.

The solution to the debate is to LOOK AT THE PROBLEM. Both parties will find accord THERE.

But neither side of this debate EVER LOOKS. It's the 800 lb. invisible gorilla that sits in the room of every theological debate that nobody even sees.

Unfortunate, but true.

We are all currently engaged in a personal struggle. We all know it. We just try to "defer" it to a location other than our dust pile. The natural man refuses to look at the reality of his own sorry hide. Actually, he can't look. He's blinded.

Galatians 5:
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

This part of the equation isn't changing for EITHER CAMP.

IF the OSAS camp said "except for that fact" I'm fine with it.

IF the non-OSAS gave up their claims of saying they don't have the same problem, they might actually stop trying to damn themselves or other believers to eternal hell and see the same issue isn't going to be resolved by their good acting jobs.

 

[FreeGrace]

Since you seem to prefer to respond to a paragraph, one sentence at a time rather than to the entire combined, coherent thought, let's try it your way ...

My style is to engage point by point. There are many points in single paragraphs.

I said this:
"I said this:
"Why assume "death" in Deut refers to eternal death? The obvious meaning in the OT was physical death.""

Because there is no evidence in the OT to eternal life, so the context for understanding what Moses thought is what was written at the time and the beliefs of the people to whom God gave the words, since God does not set out to trick people with scripture.

This doesn't make sense to me. My point was that Deut doesn't refer to eternal death, and your response is "there is no evidence in the OT to eternal life". Huh?? You've made my point. Yet your earlier post suggested that Deut was referring to eternal death.

Since Moses and the people to whom he wrote Deuteronomy had nothing to indicate a promise of eternal life and strong evidence of a relationship with God in this life and a curse to return to dust, physical death was the ultimate punishment both physically and spiritually.

Jesus refutes this idea completely. Here are some references to study:
Luke 24:27, 44, Acts 26:22, 28:23.

Further, Jesus told the Pharisees:
John 5:39-40 39 You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life. NIV

It is clear from these verses that the OT definitely taught about eternal life.

Please refute this with scripture rather than opinion ...

A simple reading of Deut clearly shows that physical death is the subject.

Your claim is that there is a difference between physical death and spiritual death in Deuteronomy and I claim that there is no support that the people to whom it was given would have understood it in that way.

But this cannot be proven. What evidence is there?

The point you have ignored ts that it was the NIV Footnote that pointed out that the NT quote was based on these OT passages. Why did the Holy Spirit want these OT passages referenced in that NT passage? How does that relate to the topic of loosing your salvation?

I find no evidence in Scripture for the "topic of losing your salvation", therefore your question is immaterial, imo.

My "view" is that it is improper to claim that there is no evidence supporting the possibility of loosing your salvation in Scripture, when it can easily be demonstrated that there are many verses which COULD be interpreted to say exactly that.

Well, gee whiz. Of course ANY passage can be interpreted ANY WAY anyone wants to interpret it. But when there are clear passages that refute the very idea of loss of salvation, all claims to the contrary are negated.

As someone who believes that "once saved, always saved", we must have an answer for these verses or admit that we don't.

I do have answers. Plenty of them.

We must not claim that they do not exist. That is my view.

Of course there are contrary views. But when examined, none of the Scriptures actually SAY what is claimed about loss of salvation. And a whole lot of assumption and speculation must occur to make that conclusion.

 

[FreeGrace]

that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

This certainly does not mean that Paul is teaching that the ungodly, will be together with the righteous at the resurrection.

This certainly is an opinion. What evidence is there to support this claim?

Your attempting to teach us that the children of the night, will be together with the children of the Day, at the resurrection, when He comes.
JLB

Please re-read my analysis. Your conclusion of my position fails to comprehend my conclusion.

And I asked for an explanation, point by point, or verse by verse, of why and how my analysis is incorrect.

All I see is more opinion and assumption. No substance.

 

[GodsGrace]

For the sake of brevity, I didn't quote your whole post, but it was all terrific. Much of what I've read from you has been great. I need clarification, though. In light of this post, FreeGrace asked this:

To which you responded with:

You are saying you do or don't hold to eternal security, even when a believer ceases to believe?

Thanks in advance. Either way you respond, it's great to have you in the discussion.

For the sake of brevity, I didn't quote your whole post, but it was all terrific. Much of what I've read from you has been great. I need clarification, though. In light of this post, FreeGrace asked this:

To which you responded with:

You are saying you do or don't hold to eternal security, even when a believer ceases to believe?

Thanks in advance. Either way you respond, it's great to have you in the discussion.

Hi Mike,
This may have been answered already. This thread is zipping along.

I just wanted to say that I denote a difference between eternal security or OSAS
and eternal life.

Eternal life is the life Jesus gives us. We weill be resurrected and have eternal life with Him. HE gives us eternal life. It begins here on earth - He is the life in us. If we remain in Him we will have eternal life with him in heaven. Hell is death, not life.

John 11:25-26
Jesus is the resurrrection and the life. Whoever believes (always the present tense!) in Him shall live even if he dies; the body dies, but we keep on living in Him.

2 Timothy 1:10
Our Savior Jesus Christ has abolished death (everlasting death and death of the Spirit in us) and has brought light and immortality through the gospel.

1 John 5:13
John has written his letters so that who believes (again, present tense) in the name of the Son of God shall have eternal life.

There are 3 deaths: Physical, spiritual, eternal.
Life is also physical, spiritual and eternal.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

I do hope you are feeling better today.

I posted the Biblical meaning for katechó (Hold fast) as it was communicated to Paul's readers from Thayer's lexicon and provided another verse where katechó is translated as "possess".

Can you reference a NT Greek Lexicon that defines katechó as "don't let go"?

http://biblehub.com/greek/2722.htm

Hi Chessman,
I don't like to argue Greek. I didn't bring up the two words above.
However, to me possess means you're holding on, it means you're not letting go.
I understand where you're going and my belief is that as long as you possess the Holy Spirit and believe in Jesus, you are saved.

If the person does not desire to have Jesus in their life, for whatever reason, and the person "let's go" of Him, they no longer possess eternal life. Eternal life is for those who BELIEVE (present tense) in Jesus.

In reading the entire N:T: from beginning to end, it becomes obvious that Jesus was here to teach us a way of living. If that's true, then we must accept Him and live by HIS standards in order to have salvation.

1 John 1:1-7 is self-explanatory.

We cannot make up our own doctrine.

Wondering

 

[Jethro Bodine]

He does not say some had salvation but "later" have lost their salvation or knowledge of God. You make that assumption. Because you have to.

Nope. I didn't say they have lost their salvation. In fact, as has been pointed out to you numerous times, he confirms their salvation (vs.1-2,11 remember, the Greek is emphatic about their salvation).
It's if Christ did not rise from the dead they are not saved and which causes their believing to be in vain (vs.14,17). But since Christ IS risen from the dead, their faith has NOT been in vain. It's all right there in the passage.

It's apparent from the text that they did not know the implications of saying there is no resurrection (vs.13). They seem to not have realized that saying there is no resurrection of the dead makes it so even Christ has not been risen from the dead. And so Paul points out that would mean they have been believing in vain and that the gospel is false and that they are still condemned sinners (vs.2,17). But you are insisting that Paul is saying "unless you believed in vain" (vs.2) means 'unless they 'didn't really' believe from the start the gospel of the resurrection he preached to them', but Paul himself says they were indeed clearly saved by the gospel he preached (vs.1-2,11). So the 'they didn't really believe to begin with' theory is simply not what the passage says. It's clear from the passage that what makes their faith potentially vain is if Christ did not rise from the dead, making the gospel a false gospel that can not save. Nothing is said about 'not really' believing the gospel from the beginning:

1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

3For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; 7then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; 8and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.9For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me. 11Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

12Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.
(1 Corinthians 15:1-18 NASB)​

 

[Jethro Bodine]

However, to me possess means you're holding on, it means you're not letting go.

Correct. As in the parable of the soils. Same word.
Holding fast the word of the gospel is the same as the ground retaining the seed that was planted.

 

[GodsGrace]

Paul addressed that in 1 Thess 5:4-10, by contrasting lifestyle of unbelievers and believers, and concluded that whether the believer was "awake or asleep" would live with Christ forever.


The Bible calls them an apostate. Your unwillingness to use that word reminds me of our current administration that won't call Muslim terrorists "Muslim terrorists".


It is v.10 that refutes your claims. But the context begins in v.4.

Paul stated that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, or "whether we are asleep or awake, we will be together with Him" in 1 Thess 5:10. The context begins in v.4 and contrasts believers with unbelievers, or day with night, or being alert with being asleep or sober with drunkeness.

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;

5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;

6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.

7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.

8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Analysis of this passage:

v.4 tells us that believers are "not in darkness"

v.5 differentiates believers (sons of light and day) with unbelievers (not of night or darkness).

v.6 encourages believers to not live like unbelievers (not sleep as others do, but be alert and sober).

v.7 describes unbelievers and what they do.

v.8 explains that "since we are of the day" (believers), we need to be sober.

v.9 explains the destiny of the believer - not destined for wrath but for salvation

v.10 says that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, we will live together with Him.

OK, there is my analysis (exegesis) of the passage. Please point out verse by verse where I've gone wrong. Thanks.

This is the perfect example of why you cannot take out one verse and make an entire doctrine around it.

Let's examine 1 Thessalonians 5:4-10
verse 4 - 6
Those in the light are saved and do God's will.
Those in the dark are not saved and are sleeping; as in not being aware of what is going on around them. They are not even aware that they are sinning. or aware of God - we would say that they have their head in the sand.

Now jump to verse 10
Whether we are awake (alive) with Him or asleep ( dead in Him) we are still alive because Jesus is the resurrection and in Him is life, whether we are awake, alive - or asleep, dead.
See John 11:25-26
1 Timothy 1:10

Now, the reason you cannot pluck out verses like you do is because if you continue reading 1 Thessalonians to:
1 Thessalonians 5:12-24
you'll find that Paul is telling the Christians of Thessalonica how they are to conduct themselves.
In verse 14 he says the unruly are to be ADMONISHED (nothing less!), encourage the fainthearted, encourage the weak,
verse 15, do not repay evil with evil, pray without ceasing,
DO NOT QUENCH THE SPIRIT! I'd say that denying Jesus, even AFTER salvation is indeed QUENCHING THE SPIRIT.

So, if we cannot lose our salvation, WHY did Paul contiinuously and in many letters, implore Christians to good behavior?
What would be the purpose UNLESS one is indeed in danger of losing salvation.

Wondering

 

[atpollard]

"It's just a huge leap to equate ceasing to believe with ceasing to be saved. There is no evidence from Scripture to support that notion."

Since you keep repeating that there is no evidence from scripture to support the notion that 'ceasing to believe' can be equated with 'ceasing to be saved', let's try one more time:

Romans 10:9-10
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Romans 10:9 makes a clear link between "confess", "believe" and "saved".
Do you refute the promise that those who confess and believe will be saved?


Luke 8:13
13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Luke 8:13 presents a 'what if' of people who
1. "hear", "receive", and "believe" (for a while)
... are they "saved"? Why or why not? Was Romans 10:9-10 untrue ... did they "believe" and were not "saved"?

2. These same people (who "believed" per Luke 8:13 and were "saved" per Romans 10:9) did "fall away".
... are they still "saved"? Explain being "saved" and "fallen away" at the same time.

(I am only 'picking on you' because you are the one who sees "no evidence from Scripture to support that notion.")

 

[chessman]

I didn't bring up the two words above.

You replied to me (who did bring up the Lexicon definition of the word) stating:

People who wish to believe they conveniently cannot loss their salvation are incredibly good at writing their own dictionary.

I didn't write Thayer's Greek to English dictionary nor do I write my own in any sense.

However, to me possess means you're holding on, it means you're not letting go.

Okay, but no dictionary will list that as a possible meaning of "possess" just as no Greek to English Lexicon will list "don't let go" as the meaning of the word Paul used.
And there's a good reason why they don't.

My point was/is, that you are doing that very thing (writing your own dictionary) for the word Paul used, not me.

 

[smaller]

Jesus set His Standard, here:

John 11:
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.
Believest thou this?

 

[chessman]

They seem to not have realized that saying there is no resurrection of the dead makes it so even Christ has not been risen from the dead. And so Paul points out that would mean they have been believing in vain and that the gospel is false and that they are still condemned sinners

Paul didn't say 'They seemed to not have realized no resurrection means no forgiveness of sins'. He said "you are STILL in your sins" to the "some among them" that did not believe in resurrection (Christ's or anyone elses).

Plus, the Holy Spirit (nor Paul) will not lead people in such a way as to 'not realize' the importance (first importance to Paul) of Christ's ressurection.

Paul's 'first importance' Gospel is about as simple as a Gospel message can get (short of the John 3:16 summation I suppose).

You are not going to convince me that a person is saved in Christ's name without them first realizing and understanding that He was resurrected from the dead. That's exactly why Paul lists what is of first importance in this section of Scripture.

But carry on. My point was, that I answered your question given the stipulation that "believed in vain" means believed in a non-ressurected christ.

 

[chessman]

It's apparent from the text that they did not know the implications of saying there is no resurrection (vs.13). ...

Yep, it's quite apparent from the text that they did not know the implications of some of them saying (saying what they believed) that there is no resurrection. That's my point. Paul tells them the implications. They are still in their sins.

 

[atpollard]

Believest thou this?

Not sure who you were addressing that to, but Yes.

 

[chessman]

If the person does not desire to have Jesus in their life, for whatever reason, and the person "let's go" of Him, they no longer possess eternal life.

What possible reason would make a person no longer 'desire to have Jesus in their life'??? I mean literally, what reason(s) would ever lead someone that has the Holy Spirit (and Jesus) in them desire to "let go" of Him. It makes no sense to me. Plus, I am unaware of any Scripture that describes someone who has The Spirit in them desiring to 'let go of Him'. Are you?

 

[smaller]

Not sure who you were addressing that to, but Yes.

But's notwithstanding though huh? Like "P" perseverance?

I like how Jesus framed it as a question. Do (whoever) really believe this?

John 11:
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.
Believest thou this?

I'd venture the majority of people claiming "faith" do not believe this. Their various forms of conditions attached and "un"belief is plastered all over these boards.

 

[smaller]

What possible reason would make a person no longer 'desire to have Jesus in their life'??? I mean literally, what reason(s) would ever lead someone that has the Holy Spirit (and Jesus) in them desire to "let go" of Him. It makes no sense to me. Plus, I am unaware of any Scripture that describes someone who has The Spirit in them desiring to 'let go of Him'. Are you?

Maybe some of us just got lucky when we understood, by faith in HIM, that Jesus attained for us what we never could. And some portion from there might even forget, some might transfer what HE did to having to "attain" His Life on their own. And some, seeing their own (entirely obvious to some) inabilities, after a time will simply leave or forget altogether.

But Jesus never forgets.

Heb. 6:
19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil

 

[WIP]

What possible reason would make a person no longer 'desire to have Jesus in their life'???

Satan comes to mind.

 

[FreeGrace]

Hi Mike,
This may have been answered already. This thread is zipping along.

I just wanted to say that I denote a difference between eternal security or OSAS
and eternal life.

Eternal life is the life Jesus gives us. We weill be resurrected and have eternal life with Him. HE gives us eternal life. It begins here on earth - He is the life in us. If we remain in Him we will have eternal life with him in heaven. Hell is death, not life.

John 11:25-26
Jesus is the resurrrection and the life. Whoever believes (always the present tense!) in Him shall live even if he dies; the body dies, but we keep on living in Him.

2 Timothy 1:10
Our Savior Jesus Christ has abolished death (everlasting death and death of the Spirit in us) and has brought light and immortality through the gospel.

1 John 5:13
John has written his letters so that who believes (again, present tense) in the name of the Son of God shall have eternal life.

There are 3 deaths: Physical, spiritual, eternal.
Life is also physical, spiritual and eternal.

Wondering

I'm now wondering. You denoted a difference between eternal security, OSAS, and eternal life. Then only descibed what eternal life was.

Please explain the difference between the 3. They are exactly the same for me. I'd like to know the difference from your perspective.

 

[FreeGrace]

Hi Chessman,
I don't like to argue Greek. I didn't bring up the two words above.
However, to me possess means you're holding on, it means you're not letting go.
I understand where you're going and my belief is that as long as you possess the Holy Spirit and believe in Jesus, you are saved.

But the Bible says that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Other verses say that we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. I see no difference.

Now, where does the Bible say or teach that it is US who has to "hold on to" the Holy Spirit? I haven't found any. And I have been reading through monthly for over 10 years.