Perfect Tense for "saved" proves eternal security

[FreeGrace]

This is the perfect example of why you cannot take out one verse and make an entire doctrine around it.

Let's examine 1 Thessalonians 5:4-10
verse 4 - 6
Those in the light are saved and do God's will.
Those in the dark are not saved and are sleeping; as in not being aware of what is going on around them. They are not even aware that they are sinning. or aware of God - we would say that they have their head in the sand.

Now jump to verse 10
Whether we are awake (alive) with Him or asleep ( dead in Him) we are still alive because Jesus is the resurrection and in Him is life, whether we are awake, alive - or asleep, dead.

Excuse me, but Paul's contrast in this passage is about lifestyle, not being alive or dead in Him. In fact, there is no such thing as being "dead in Him". Those who are spiritually dead are NOT "in Him" at all.

The point of the passage is about contrasting lifestyles of believers with unbelievers. I pointed that out verse by verse. All you've done is make a general comment about v.4-6 and then jumped to v.10.

See John 11:25-26
1 Timothy 1:10

Now, the reason you cannot pluck out verses like you do is because if you continue reading 1 Thessalonians to:
1 Thessalonians 5:12-24
you'll find that Paul is telling the Christians of Thessalonica how they are to conduct themselves.

Whoa! Why insert Jn 11 and 1 Tim 1:10 into the passage. The passage is its own context.

I addressed EACH verse in the passage. Please do the same to show that my explanation is in error.

In verse 14 he says the unruly are to be ADMONISHED (nothing less!), encourage the fainthearted, encourage the weak,
verse 15, do not repay evil with evil, pray without ceasing,
DO NOT QUENCH THE SPIRIT! I'd say that denying Jesus, even AFTER salvation is indeed QUENCHING THE SPIRIT.

So, if we cannot lose our salvation, WHY did Paul contiinuously and in many letters, implore Christians to good behavior?

Very good question and very easy answer!!

We are admonished and implored to good behavior because of gaining eternal reward and blessings in this life. Is that not motivation?

What would be the purpose UNLESS one is indeed in danger of losing salvation.
Wondering

I just answered the question. But it seems the Arminian view simply dismisses the promise of eternal reward for faithfulness and blessings during this life.

 

[FreeGrace]

Since you keep repeating that there is no evidence from scripture to support the notion that 'ceasing to believe' can be equated with 'ceasing to be saved', let's try one more time:

Romans 10:9-10
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Romans 10:9 makes a clear link between "confess", "believe" and "saved".
Do you refute the promise that those who confess and believe will be saved?

Nope.

Luke 8:13
13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Luke 8:13 presents a 'what if' of people who
1. "hear", "receive", and "believe" (for a while)
... are they "saved"? Why or why not? Was Romans 10:9-10 untrue ... did they "believe" and were not "saved"?

I'm still puzzled why you're trying to prove that one can lose salvation, given your Calvinism and all. They are saved because they believed.

2. These same people (who "believed" per Luke 8:13 and were "saved" per Romans 10:9) did "fall away".
... are they still "saved"?

Yes. Jesus promised this: John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. NIV

Notice there are no conditions after being given eternal life, yet THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH.

Explain being "saved" and "fallen away" at the same time.

Sure. One of God's own children has rebelled against Him.

No different that a birth child rebelling against their birth parent. It doesn't change the relationship one bit, because once born, cannot be UN-born. Same in the spiritual realm. Or the Bible would have said so clearly.

(I am only 'picking on you' because you are the one who sees "no evidence from Scripture to support that notion.")

There is no evidence. There is a lot of misunderstanding about what Scripture says and means.

You've claimed being a Calvinist. But there's no evidence of it from your posts.

 

[chessman]

What possible reason would make a person no longer 'desire to have Jesus in their life'???

Satan comes to mind.

I just don't get it. I was being lead away from a desire to have Christ in me before I accepted Christ in me, but not after.

At this point, having the Holy Spirit in me, I detest the adversary so much more than before. Before, Satan was a friend and could and did lead me away from Christ. Now that Satan is an enemy, I hate him and don't get lead by Him near as much as before. You'd think Satan missed his chance before people get the Helper.

But that's just me and what I see Biblically. I can't speak for others or what they see.

 

[MarkT]

"Unless you believed in vain" (vs.2) means 'you have believed in vain if Christ has not really been raised from the dead' (vs.14,17) Paul himself says they believed the word they first heard which was about a risen Christ (vs.11). But you are claiming "unless you believed in vain" is referring to some of them not believing from the beginning. It isn't until later that some were saying there is no resurrection of the dead, which, he points out, means Christ did not rise from the dead, making the standing and believing they have done vain. And so that's why he says "unless you believed in vain". He explains all this right in the passage.

1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

3For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; 7then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; 8and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.9For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me. 11Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

12Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied. (Romans 15:1-18 NASB)
​

A simple exercise in reading comprehension shows us what I'm saying is what is true. They received and believed the gospel of the risen Christ (vs.11). Later, some among them say there is no resurrection (vs.12). Paul explains to them that if that is true then the believing they did in his gospel of a risen Christ (vs.11) has been in vain (vs.14,17). All of which means you can't use "unless you believed in vain" (vs.2) to negate the condition for presently being saved that Paul lays out (vs.1-2), because "unless you believed in vain" does not mean 'unless you never really believed to begin with'. Paul plainly tells us they did (vs.11).

There's two things here. "If you hold it fast", meaning if you continue in the truth of the gospel Paul preached and "unless you believed in vain", which Paul explains by saying if Christ was not raised from the dead then our preaching was in vain and your faith is in vain.

 

[MarkT]

The meaning is clear from Luke 8:13 - Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. NIV

The phrases in red relate to each other. To "fall away" in Luke 8:13 is to cease to believe after a while. Very simple.

Jesus said nothing about being saved in v.13.


The statement can be taken in any number of ways, so is just a silly statement. There are NO verses that equate falling away with loss of salvation. One can only assume that in Luke 8:13.

Again, to "fall away" in Luke 8:13 is to fall away from the faith, or to cease to believe.

It's just a huge leap to equate ceasing to believe with ceasing to be saved. There is no evidence from Scripture to support that notion.

There's Hebrews 6:4-8 - "For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. 7 For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned."

 

[MarkT]

Since it is God who does the saving and his salvation is everlasting, Isa. 45:17, I have to agree with once saved always saved. There's no saved for a while or saved and unsaved. The problem is it does not follow that those who fall away, desert and abandon the word will be saved since the word is life John 6:63-68 and those who reject the word have no life. In fact they are dead, and in the end they are broken off and burned.
John 15:6
If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

He said "you are STILL in your sins" to the "some among them" that did not believe in resurrection (Christ's or anyone elses).

No, he did not say that. That's why I asked you to produce the reference earlier.
He says they are still in their sins if Christ is not risen:

"if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins." (1 Corinthians 15:17 NASB).

He did not say they are still in their sins because they don't believe in the resurrection of the dead. In context, what makes their faith potentially vain (vs.2) is if Christ is not really risen from the dead (vs.14,17), not that these saved people (vs.1-2) are being corrupted by bad company (vs.33-34) to think that there is no resurrection of the dead (vs.12).

Paul didn't say 'They seemed to not have realized no resurrection means no forgiveness of sins'.

Let me show you.
Some among the Corinthians say there is no resurrection (vs.12). To which Paul says, if that's true, then even Christ is not risen from the dead (vs.13). He's showing them the implications no resurrection of the dead has to the gospel that Paul preached to them and which they received and believed in and were saved by (vs.1-2). They are still in their sins (that is, not forgiven) if Christ is not risen from the dead (vs.17).

You say some among the Corinthians said that 'Christ is not risen from the dead'. But Paul's response to the argument is, "But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised" (vs.13). It's ridiculous for Paul to respond with vs.13 if their argument to begin with was that 'Christ is not risen from the dead'. What we see is their argument was "some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead" (vs.12). He then has to show them the implications that has to the saving power of the gospel message (vs.17), which they heard and received and are saved by and are standing in (vs.1-2).

Paul's 'first importance' Gospel is about as simple as a Gospel message can get (short of the John 3:16 summation I suppose).

You are not going to convince me that a person is saved in Christ's name without them first realizing and understanding that He was resurrected from the dead. That's exactly why Paul lists what is of first importance in this section of Scripture.

And look, he reminds them that the risen Christ is in fact exactly what he preached to them in the beginning (vs.3-4), and is what they heard, and received, and believed, and are standing on and are saved by (vs.1-2). There is no argument here for 'some didn't really believe in the resurrection of Christ from the start' and that's what he's addressing. None whatsoever. The leaven of the teaching that there is no resurrection of the dead (vs.12) has come in after he preached to them the resurrection (vs.4,12) and after they are already saved (vs.1-2). And because of the erroneous teaching about the resurrection of the dead, Paul has to make them see that if there is no resurrection of the dead then even Christ is not risen from the dead (vs.13,16), in complete and utter contradiction to the gospel that was in fact delivered to them (vs.3-4) and which they received and are presently saved by (vs.1-2).

My point was, that I answered your question given the stipulation that "believed in vain" means believed in a non-ressurected christ.

No.
The point is, they have potentially believed in vain (vs.2) if Christ has not risen from the dead (vs.13,16), which makes the gospel they preached about a risen Christ (vs.3-4) unable to save because it's not true, leaving them in their sins (vs.17).

1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

3For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; 7then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; 8and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.9For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me. 11Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

12Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.

33Do not be deceived: “Bad company corrupts good morals.” 34Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.

(1 Corinthians 15:1-18,33-34 NASB)​

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Before, Satan was a friend and could and did lead me away from Christ. Now that Satan is an enemy, I hate him and don't get lead by Him near as much as before. You'd think Satan missed his chance before people get the Helper.

"3But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ. 4For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully." (2 Corinthians 11:3-4 NASB)

 

[chessman]

you are still in your sins." (1 Corinthians 15:17 NASB).

He's says this about the some among them that say there is no ressurection of the dead. That's the you he's talking to. Just because someone decided more than a century later to insert verse numbers in between makes no difference to his message.

He did not say they are still in their sins because they don't believe in the resurrection of the dead.

Yes he does. So what if it's not in one verse but spread out. That's just Paul. He makes long statements all the time in his letters.

There is no argument here for 'they didn't believe in the resurrection of Christ from the start'. None whatsoever.

Bull.

No

yes.

 

[chessman]

2 Corinthians 11:1 (NASB) I wish that you would bear with me in a little foolishness;
...

3But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.

Silly, foolishness to be afraid of that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Now, where does the Bible say or teach that it is US who has to "hold on to" the Holy Spirit?

It says for us to hold on to the WORD.
"2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word" (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB)
"24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning." (1 John 2:24 NASB)
"15“But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast" (Luke 8:15 NASB)
"9Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God" (2 John 1:9 NASB)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

you are still in your sins." (1 Corinthians 15:17 NASB).

He's says this about the some among them that say there is no ressurection of the dead.

No, he said they are still in their sins if Christ has not been resurrected:
"17and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins." (1 Corinthians 15:17 NASB bold mine)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

2 Corinthians 11:1 (NASB) I wish that you would bear with me in a little foolishness;
...


Silly, foolishness to be afraid of that.

No, Paul's foolishness is not that he's suggesting they are being led astray from Christ.
Paul's foolishness is that he is boasting about himself:

"12But what I am doing I will continue to do, so that I may cut off opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the matter about which they are boasting. 13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.

16Again I say, let no one think me foolish; but if you do, receive me even as foolish, so that I also may boast a little. 17What I am saying, I am not saying as the Lord would, but as in foolishness, in this confidence of boasting. 18Since many boast according to the flesh, I will boast also. 19For you, being so wise, tolerate the foolish gladly. 20For you tolerate it if anyone enslaves you, anyone devours you, anyone takes advantage of you, anyone exalts himself, anyone hits you in the face. 21To my shame I must say that we have been weak by comparison.
But in whatever respect anyone else is bold—I speak in foolishness—I am just as bold myself. 22Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they descendants of Abraham? So am I. 23Are they servants of Christ?—I speak as if insane—I more so; in far more labors, in far more imprisonments, beaten times without number, often in danger of death. 24Five times I received from the Jews thirty-nine lashes. 25Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, a night and a day I have spent in the deep. 26I have been on frequent journeys, in dangers from rivers, dangers from robbers, dangers from my countrymen, dangers from the Gentiles, dangers in the city, dangers in the wilderness, dangers on the sea, dangers among false brethren; 27I have been in labor and hardship, through many sleepless nights, in hunger and thirst, often without food, in cold and exposure. 28Apart from suchexternal things, there is the daily pressure on me of concern for all the churches. 29Who is weak without my being weak? Who is led into sin without my intense concern?" (2 Corinthians 11:21 NASB bold mine)

 

[chessman]

Paul's foolishness is that he is boasting about himself:

Yep.
Anybody (Paul, you, me, a Hebrew, an Apostle, whoever) is being foolish to boast about himself-saving himself.

Or as Paul puts it in verse 3 "your minds" don't save you. Christ saves you, me and even Paul.

But people sure like to think they do and their minds do. Silly, really when you actually think about your mind saving yourself.

 

[chessman]

No, he said they are still in their sins if Christ has not been resurrected:
"17and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins." (1 Corinthians 15:17 NASB bold mine)

To you who can only see a verse (17 in this case) one verse at a time and not see his complete logical statement over several verses. There's a reason v17 startes with an "and", mid-sentence. But here, let me simplify his logic for you:

1 Corinthians 15:34b some have no knowledge of God​

If you snip "if Christ has not been raised" out of Paul's statement that also says some among them actually did believe that way, you miss the fact (intentionally or not) that some among them were not saved.

 

[JLB]

Thank you, I really like your posts. (I wish I could give a 'like' on A&T)
You articulate your position well and support it with appropriate scripture.

A proper response would drift too far from 'perseverance' into initial 'salvation', but a Reader's Digest version is ...
1. Dead in sin with heart of stone (dead heart) = incapable of anything.
2. Dead contribute nothing to their 'second birth', we just lay there helpless.
3. God gives new heart (flesh = alive) and faith and grace and we are now saved! (chosen before the foundation, those whom the Father has given to the Son).
4. We are finally ABLE to respond with belief, and obedience and walk in the works prepared by God in advanced (but we are already saved).
5. Since I didn't do #3, I can't undo #3 ... not of works that no man shall boast. To God alone belongs all of the Glory.

For the OP: A counterfeit #3 produces something that looks like #4 sitting in a pew, but does not stand up to the test and persevere and fruit and join Christ on the Last Day.

Do you believe it's possible to become born again, and filled with the Holy Spirit, then later on become "luke warm", whereby we just sit in a pew, and eventually just attend church on Easter, and funerals, while slowly becoming "carnal"?


Do you thinks this is possible for a person?




Thanks JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I just don't get it. I was being lead away from a desire to have Christ in me before I accepted Christ in me, but not after.

At this point, having the Holy Spirit in me, I detest the adversary so much more than before. Before, Satan was a friend and could and did lead me away from Christ. Now that Satan is an enemy, I hate him and don't get lead by Him near as much as before. You'd think Satan missed his chance before people get the Helper.

But that's just me and what I see Biblically. I can't speak for others or what they see.

Here's what Paul said about this subject:
2 Cor 11:3-4
3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough NIV

In v.3, "your minds" is addressing the believers at Corinth.

Also, he said this:
1 Tim 5:11 As for younger widows, do not put them on such a list. For when their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ, they want to marry. NIV

 

[FreeGrace]

Since it is God who does the saving and his salvation is everlasting, Isa. 45:17, I have to agree with once saved always saved. There's no saved for a while or saved and unsaved. The problem is it does not follow that those who fall away, desert and abandon the word will be saved since the word is life John 6:63-68 and those who reject the word have no life. In fact they are dead, and in the end they are broken off and burned.
John 15:6
If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.

The "fire" in John 15:6 isn't about hell, as many seem to think. It's about being judged for behavior, which everyone will undergo

This is what Paul said about "fire":
1 Cor 3:14-15
14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. NIV

It should be obvious that reward is based on the survival of what has been built, and loss of reward if what has been built is "burned up" in judgment of it. But what is equally as obvious is that even though one may "suffer loss", it plainly says "he himself WILL BE SAVED".

This can be applied to ALL the verses on fire and burning where we don't find the word "eternal" attached to fire.

 

[FreeGrace]

No, he did not say that. That's why I asked you to produce the reference earlier.
He says they are still in their sins if Christ is not risen:

"if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins." (1 Corinthians 15:17 NASB).

iow, if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless, BECAUSE HE NEVER DIED FOR YOUR SINS; you are still in your sins.

The fact that Christ was raised from the dead shows His power to pay for our sins. If He had not been raised from the dead, He would have been just like everyone else of us who cannot die for anyone's sins.

 

[JLB]

What possible reason would make a person no longer 'desire to have Jesus in their life'??? I mean literally, what reason(s) would ever lead someone that has the Holy Spirit (and Jesus) in them desire to "let go" of Him. It makes no sense to me. Plus, I am unaware of any Scripture that describes someone who has The Spirit in them desiring to 'let go of Him'. Are you?

The threat of persecution and death, is one reason a person would choose to turn away from Christ, and renounce Him as Lord.


This was very predominate during the first century, as well as today, in the middle east.

That is the admonition throughout the New Testament: Remain faithful even unto death.

The Foxes book of martyrs is filled with such examples.

People being tortured and fed to lions, burned at the stake... because they wouldn't renounce Jesus Christ as Lord.

This is the setting and context for the following admonitions:

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

• Time of temptation is a reference to persecution and tribulation.

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24:9-14

Matthew says it this way, concerning the parable of the Sower: Same word "endure" is used, which is inter-changable with "believe".

20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Matthew 13:20-21


Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. Revelation 2:10


He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. Revelation 3:5



JLB