Perfect Tense for "saved" proves eternal security

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Now, where does the Bible say or teach that it is US who has to "hold on to" the Holy Spirit?"

It says for us to hold on to the WORD.
"2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word" (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB)
"24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning." (1 John 2:24 NASB)
"15“But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast" (Luke 8:15 NASB)
"9Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God" (2 John 1:9 NASB)

My question wasn't answered.

1 Cor 15:2 says to "possess the word", meaning believing the gospel.
1 Jn 2:24 speaks of fellowship, which is another word for "abiding".
Luke 8:15 is about fruit production in a faithful believer.
2 Jn 9 is again about fellowship. And "does not have God" is another way of saying no fellowship with God.

Once again, where does the Bible say or teach that it is us who has to "hold on to" the Holy Spirit? Your response failed to answer the question, or provide any evidence for your claim.

 

[FreeGrace]

The threat of persecution and death, is one reason a person would choose to turn away from Christ, and renounce Him as Lord.

This was very predominate during the first century, as well as today, in the middle east.

That is the admonition throughout the New Testament: Remain faithful even unto death.

Or what, specifically? Where does the Bible say anything about losing salvation or eternal life if one doesn't?

 

[JLB]

The "fire" in John 15:6 isn't about hell, as many seem to think. It's about being judged for behavior, which everyone will undergo

This is what Paul said about "fire":
1 Cor 3:14-15
14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. NIV

It should be obvious that reward is based on the survival of what has been built, and loss of reward if what has been built is "burned up" in judgment of it. But what is equally as obvious is that even though one may "suffer loss", it plainly says "he himself WILL BE SAVED".

This can be applied to ALL the verses on fire and burning where we don't find the word "eternal" attached to fire.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6

• Do you believe that the branches that are thrown into the fire and burned, is referring to people?

Thrown into the fire and burned is a reference to being removed from Christ, and being cast into the fires of hell and burned.

Here Jesus specifically links THE FIRE with hell -

If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched—

And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into
the fire. Matthew 3:10

His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” Matthew 3:12


But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. Matthew 5:22


Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Matthew 7:18


“If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire. Matthew 18:8

The Fire that Jesus warned us about, in His teaching from John 15, is described by Him or John the Baptist as being both hell and everlasting.

• The fire, as mentioned by Jesus in John 15, and many other places, refers to the everlasting fire of hell.

Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Matthew 7:18



Those who defile the Temple, will be destroyed by God.

14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. 16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.
1 Corinthians 3:14-17



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6

• Do you believe that the branches that are thrown into the fire and burned, is referring to people?

Thrown into the fire and burned is a reference to being removed from Christ, and being cast into the fires of hell and burned.

Here Jesus specifically links THE FIRE with hell -

If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched—

And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into
the fire. Matthew 3:10

His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” Matthew 3:12


But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. Matthew 5:22


Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Matthew 7:18


“If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire. Matthew 18:8

The Fire that Jesus warned us about, in His teaching from John 15, is described by Him or John the Baptist as being both hell and everlasting.

• The fire, as mentioned by Jesus in John 15, and many other places, refers to the everlasting fire of hell.

Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Matthew 7:18

Those who defile the Temple, will be destroyed by God.

14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. 16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.
1 Corinthians 3:14-17JLB

I proved my point with 1 Cor 3:14,15, which I noticed wasn't addressed. Unless "fire" includes the adjectives "eternal" or "unquenchable", there is no reason to assume "fire" means hell or the lake of fire. Which was proven with 1 Cor 3:14,15.

Please provide an exegesis of those 2 verses which explain what Paul was saying if there is disagreement with what I've posted.

Thanks.

 

[atpollard]

Do you believe it's possible to become born again, and filled with the Holy Spirit, then later on become "luke warm", whereby we just sit in a pew, and eventually just attend church on Easter, and funerals, while slowly becoming "carnal"?

Do you thinks this is possible for a person?

Thanks JLB

Only for a season and only up to a point.
Then God intervenes with a course correction.
(Think Jonah ... Moses ... David.)

 

[WIP]

What possible reason would make a person no longer 'desire to have Jesus in their life'??? I mean literally, what reason(s) would ever lead someone that has the Holy Spirit (and Jesus) in them desire to "let go" of Him. It makes no sense to me. Plus, I am unaware of any Scripture that describes someone who has The Spirit in them desiring to 'let go of Him'. Are you?

Satan comes to mind.

I just don't get it. I was being lead away from a desire to have Christ in me before I accepted Christ in me, but not after.

At this point, having the Holy Spirit in me, I detest the adversary so much more than before. Before, Satan was a friend and could and did lead me away from Christ. Now that Satan is an enemy, I hate him and don't get lead by Him near as much as before. You'd think Satan missed his chance before people get the Helper.

But that's just me and what I see Biblically. I can't speak for others or what they see.

Sorry, I wasn't very clear. I meant Satan was an example of someone not that he would be the reason. Also included would be the 1/3 of the angels.

 

[WIP]

This thread is beginning to get quite personal and self absorbed. Let's apply the rules of this forum and employ some respect for each other.

 

[MarkT]

The "fire" in John 15:6 isn't about hell, as many seem to think. It's about being judged for behavior, which everyone will undergo

This is what Paul said about "fire":
1 Cor 3:14-15
14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. NIV

It should be obvious that reward is based on the survival of what has been built, and loss of reward if what has been built is "burned up" in judgment of it. But what is equally as obvious is that even though one may "suffer loss", it plainly says "he himself WILL BE SAVED".

This can be applied to ALL the verses on fire and burning where we don't find the word "eternal" attached to fire.

Yeah, fire can be used in various ways. Fire can refine. Fire can destroy. John said Jesus would baptize with fire meaning he would destroy the myths about God and the obstacles to God.

So in John 15:5, Jesus said, 'you are the branches' and branches are gathered and burned.

1 Cor. 3:14,15 So here we have a situation where the Corinthians are building on the foundation of Jesus Christ and fire will test each man's work. So he is talking about what we have built on the foundation ie. our temple, our storehouse where we keep our gold and silver and precious stones representing wisdom, knowledge and understanding. Paul said, "Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you?" 1 Cor. 3:16

This is why the Counsellor, the Spirit of truth, is sent ie. to teach us, to build us up into a temple.
John 14:26
But the Counsellor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

 

[chessman]

The threat of persecution and death, is one reason a person would choose to turn away from Christ, and renounce Him as Lord.

Why would someone who already has eternal life be threatened by death??? That's what makes no sense. Have they not read Jesus' admonition in Matt 10:28 and Rev 2:10 to not fear death?

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

• Time of temptation is a reference to persecution and tribulation.

"Receive the word with joy" is a reference to one of the types of them that Jesus spoke to in parables and that thusly did not understand the word about the kingdom, not us that are the one good soil that did understand the Word, as Jesus explains in the parable's interpretation to His disciples:

Matthew 13:23 (LEB) But what was sown on the good soil—this is the one who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces, this one a hundred times as much, and this one sixty, and this one thirty.”​

Some people make up there own interpretation rather than reading and understanding Jesus' interpretation. And when presented with the evidence that shows that the good soil was the one type that did (does) understood (understand) the Word they just deny that the good soil was the one type that did understand. And they claim the rock also understood the Word. Odd really.

 

[smaller]

There is only one place I want to be found standing and living in:

1 John 4:16
And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

I know His Love. I live in His Love. I witness to Jesus in this way, His Way.

Take this as a word of advice or, if you prefer, a prophetic word: Anyone who thinks they are "in Christ" and is NOT found standing in the above WILL HAVE their legs cut out from under them.

Matthew 3:10
And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Luke 3:9
And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Do I think the damnation of other believers crowd will be saved? Yes. There are spiritually adverse reasons in the flesh of believers that will lead them out of the LOVE of God in Christ that are not THEM. Jesus does bring that resistance into play, to show us that darkness is in our own hearts to "contend" with. Y'all know the drill well enough by now. Romans 7:7-13, Romans 7:17-21, Romans 7:23, Romans 7:25, Romans 8:3, 2 Cor. 12:7, Gal. 4:29, Gal. 5:17, 1 Tim. 1:15 AND the coupe de grace, 1 John 3:8 which shows us our own SIN is in fact demonic/of the devil. Remember that last one as you condemn other believers. The condemnation imprinted on your lips WILL come back to haunt you in the JUDGMENT.

 

[chessman]

I meant Satan was an example of someone not that he would be the reason. Also included would be the 1/3 of the angels.

It seems to me that the whole reason that believers are indwelt, established and sealed with the Holy Spirit (God) is for the Holy Spirit to help us battle the un-holy spirits.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 (LEB) Now the one who establishes us together with you in Christ and who anoints us is God, who also sealed us and gave the down payment of the Spirit in our hearts.​

I don't see where Satan or his 1/3 where ever given the Holy Spirit in their hearts (if they even have hearts).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I said this:
"Now, where does the Bible say or teach that it is US who has to "hold on to" the Holy Spirit?"

My question wasn't answered.

1 Cor 15:2 says to "possess the word", meaning believing the gospel.
1 Jn 2:24 speaks of fellowship, which is another word for "abiding".
Luke 8:15 is about fruit production in a faithful believer.
2 Jn 9 is again about fellowship. And "does not have God" is another way of saying no fellowship with God.

Once again, where does the Bible say or teach that it is us who has to "hold on to" the Holy Spirit? Your response failed to answer the question, or provide any evidence for your claim.

The argument is not that you have to hold on to the Holy Spirit. The argument is that you have to hold on to the word. That is the point being addressed by the verses I posted.
And you have to be presently doing that in order to be presently saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB).

1 Cor 15:2 says to "possess the word", meaning believing the gospel.

Yes. That's what holding fast the word means. And it is the condition to be presently saved.

Luke 8:15 is about fruit production in a faithful believer.

The reference was provided as proof that the argument is for one to hold fast the word. You have for some reason converted it to the claim that one must hold onto the Holy Spirit. But that happens by virtue of holding onto the word (believing).

1 Jn 2:24 speaks of fellowship, which is another word for "abiding".
2 Jn 9 is again about fellowship. And "does not have God" is another way of saying no fellowship with God.

Here's the problem with your argument.
Since Jesus himself is eternal life, if you no longer abide in him, then you no longer abide in eternal life.

20And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
(1 John 5:20,11-12 NASB bold mine)​

But hyper-grace doctrine says that you still have eternal life (Jesus Christ) even though you no longer have Jesus Christ because of unbelief. As we can plainly see, this completely contradicts the above scriptures.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

iow, if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless, BECAUSE HE NEVER DIED FOR YOUR SINS; you are still in your sins.

Good, you get it.
Now explain it to chessman.

 

[smaller]

The argument is not that you have to hold on to the Holy Spirit. The argument is that you have to hold on to the word. That is the point being addressed by the verses I posted.

And in typical fashion your position NEVER factors in Jesus' Holding onto anyone and most of the time eliminates Him altogether from the equations, rendering HIM powerless, neutral and of no effect whatsoever. I see no point in such postures. They are essentially "Godless" claims from that camp, trying, quite vainly, to SEPARATE THE LOVE OF GOD IN CHRIST out of the equations.

Romans 8:
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I am likewise, persuaded. Not just for myself either. For anyone who has called upon Him. It's a done deal BECAUSE OF HIM.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Anybody (Paul, you, me, a Hebrew, an Apostle, whoever) is being foolish to boast about himself-saving himself.

Yes, having faith to be justified/saved is certainly a wicked work that can not justify. Paul said so, right?
Maybe someday someone will post the chapter and verse where the Bible says that so I can stop thinking that I am justified through my continued believing, as if that's a damnable work of the law that can not justify.

 

[chessman]

Good, you get it.
Now explain it to chessman.

Chessman's not the one claiming that their faith was worth something.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Chessman's not the one claiming that their faith was worth something.

You're evading the discussion (again).
You claimed that Paul said that some of the Corinthians are still in their sins because they believe that Christ is not risen from the dead. But that's not what Paul said. He said they are still in their sins if Christ has not really risen from the dead. The verse plainly tells us that:

"if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins." (1 Corinthians 15:17 NASB)

It does not say what you say. So your argument that "unless you believed in vain" (vs.2) means 'unless you didn't really believe from the beginning' has no basis in fact. And since that is not what "unless you believed in vain" means, it does not, on that basis, nullify "you are saved, if you hold fast the word" (vs.2) as Paul's stated condition for continuing to be saved.

 

[LovethroughDove]

1 Corinthians 15:17

Shows that there are people who claim to be "in the faith", yet don't believe in the resurrection of Christ and ...........................................................are not saved. Their faith is worthless and are still in their sins.

 

[chessman]

1 Corinthians 15:17

Shows that there are people who claim to be "in the faith", yet don't believe in the resurrection of Christ and ...........................................................are not saved. Their faith is worthless and are still in their sins.

Even people that believe you can loose salvation can see that's what Paul is saying throughout 1 Cor 15 (not just v17).

There's a reason why believing in Christ's resurrection is of first importance.

 

[WIP]

1 Corinthians 15:17

Shows that there are people who claim to be "in the faith", yet don't believe in the resurrection of Christ and ...........................................................are not saved. Their faith is worthless and are still in their sins.

I don't see 1 Corinthians in the same way you put it here. The way I read it, Paul was saying that if what they say is true (that Christ did not rise) then their (our) faith is pointless because without Christ rising from the dead, there is no hope, and we are still in our sins. He was presenting an argument for the validity of the Gospel.