Perfect Tense for "saved" proves eternal security

[FreeGrace]

I asked this:
"Please provide any verse that teaches loss of salvation during the sanctification process."

Respectfully, I did.

Respectfully, you didn't. I understand that you thought you did.

You refused to comment on it other than state that there was no point in commenting on it. You have also ignored the explanations that I have provided twice on how that verse applies to the appearance of the loss of salvation as well as the other verses that I have provided. I have carefully avoided discussing salvation as a prize or reward or anything earned because I am a Calvinist and because that is not the topic set out in the OP.

How in the world can any Calvinist believe that salvation can be lost?? Please explain.

The OP is about perseverance not earning salvation, so your focus on the 'prize' misses the point.

No, the OP is about being saved in the perfect tense.

Paul expressed concern about DISQUALIFICATION which is an issue related to the OP and which you have ignored.

Paul's comment about disqualification is related to the PRIZE, which isn't salvation, as it seems you've assumed. Being qualified for the PRIZE is about receiving reward for faithful service.

I see little to be gained by retreading that ground a third time.[/QUOTE]

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Why assume "death" in Deut refers to eternal death? The obvious meaning in the OT was physical death."

Please provide the OT verse on eternal life?

Based on what I said, your request/question doesn't fit.

Modern Judaism teaches that after life comes worm food.

That's nice, but the OP isn't about "modern Judaism".

I am not an expert on ancient Judaism, but I will need scriptural support from the Pentateuch to convince me that Moses meant something other than eternal Death when he said, God said to kill them.

So, who did God say "kill them" to? Moses. Did Moses have the power of eternal death?

I think you've just refuted your own view.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Lexham English Bible is a literal translation. But here:

1 Corinthians 15:12-17 (NASB) Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?

But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.

Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. ​

For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.​

Follow his logic. He answers the question (How do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead) with "your faith is vain, your faith is worthless, you are still in your sins". That's the reason some of them said, there is no ressurection of the dead, they believed in vain!

It is simply impossible to be saved by believing in a christ that has not been raised. Yet some did believe that way. They believed in vain. They were NOT all saved as your position assumes.

"Unless you believed in vain" (vs.2) means 'you have believed in vain if Christ has not really been raised from the dead' (vs.14,17) Paul himself says they believed the word they first heard which was about a risen Christ (vs.11). But you are claiming "unless you believed in vain" is referring to some of them not believing from the beginning. It isn't until later that some were saying there is no resurrection of the dead, which, he points out, means Christ did not rise from the dead, making the standing and believing they have done vain. And so that's why he says "unless you believed in vain". He explains all this right in the passage.

1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

3For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; 7then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; 8and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.9For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me. 11Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

12Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied. (Romans 15:1-18 NASB)
​

A simple exercise in reading comprehension shows us what I'm saying is what is true. They received and believed the gospel of the risen Christ (vs.11). Later, some among them say there is no resurrection (vs.12). Paul explains to them that if that is true then the believing they did in his gospel of a risen Christ (vs.11) has been in vain (vs.14,17). All of which means you can't use "unless you believed in vain" (vs.2) to negate the condition for presently being saved that Paul lays out (vs.1-2), because "unless you believed in vain" does not mean 'unless you never really believed to begin with'. Paul plainly tells us they did (vs.11).

 

[atpollard]

You are saying you do or don't hold to eternal security, even when a believer ceases to believe?
Thanks in advance. Either way you respond, it's great to have you in the discussion.

Short answer ...
a 'believer' cannot cease to believe because faith (the ability to believe) did not originate with the person, but with God.

Longer answer ...
The Bible talks about those who left 'us' because they were never of us. We have warnings about wolves in sheep's clothes and tares sewn among the wheat. We have the many who followed Jesus for a season, and fell away when times got hard. We have warnings about those with an appearance of holiness, but lacking its power (legalism). Against all of this, we have a promise from the lips of Christ that he will loose NONE of those that the Father has given him, but will raise 'us' all up on the LAST DAY.

From all of this, I take away two things:
1. This side of the last day, things are confusing and not everything is what it seems to be.
2. God had a thumb on the scale and God has chosen some. God has given those he has chosen to the protection of the Son. The Son WILL protect what has been entrusted to him. The differences will be made clear at the end ... at the Last Day.

The confusion comes from our Point of View.
Most people see salvation from the perspective of standing in the crowd following Pentecost in the book of Acts. The Holy Spirit anoints Peter who speaks to the crowd and many choose to believe and many do not. That IS how it looks from the outside looking in. It DOES appear to be a co-operative effort (synergism).

God has granted some of us a special gift. The ability to see salvation from the opposite point of view. From the inside looking out. In the Bible, we find this presented most clearly on the road to Damascus. Where is the preacher asking Saul if he wants to accept Jesus? Where is Saul's choice to follow or not to follow? No! What we see is the power of a sovereign God pointing to Saul and saying "I CHOOSE YOU. YOU ARE PAUL AND YOU BELONG TO ME." There is no discussion, no 'free will', only a Sovereign God. Paul was not sad at God's choice. Paul was not worse off because of God's choice. God CHOSE to save Paul rather than respect Saul's 'Free Will' to believe wrong and do wrong and die in his sin and burn in hell for his folly. This is the real 'free will' right that those who object to God acting alone (monergism) really are demanding ... the right to freely choose damnation. They need love, not anger from Calvinists.

 

[JLB]

Analysis of this passage:

v.4 tells us that believers are "not in darkness"

How about those who believe for a while, then begin to live as drunkard's as unsober, and carousing at night, living as an immoral person, who lies and steals, while they practice the works of the flesh, because they fell away?


Is a person who believes for a while, still considered a believer, even though they have returned to "unbelieving".


6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. 1 Thessalonians 5:6-10


Paul doesn't want these Christians to be partakers of God's wrath, along with those unbeliever's.

6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:6-7

What you have attempted to do, is convince the people of this Forum, that it is impossible, for Christians to partake of God's wrath, which are empty words, as Paul says.


Paul plainly warns the Church, not to be a partaker of God's wrath, with them.

again

5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:5-8

• God will render to each Christian, according to his deeds.
• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good
• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

Those Christians who practice the works of the flesh, will not inherit the kingdom of God -


19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21

and again

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10



Those who do not inherit the kingdom of God, have no inheritance in God's kingdom, and will be a partaker of God's wrath, along with the sons of disobedience.


3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.
Ephesians 5:3-7

• because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.

JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"It's just a huge leap to equate ceasing to believe with ceasing to be saved. There is no evidence from Scripture to support that notion."

One 'huge leap' equating 'believing' with 'being saved' ...

Unless the Bible clearly states the opposite state, there is no reason to assume that it is true. And the Bible never says that those who cease to believe cease to be saved. That is pure assumption.

Romans 10:9-11
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”

... and a small step to 'assume' that Luke 8:13 states that the opposite is also possible.

Thank you for admitting that one must ASSUME the opposite is POSSIBLE.

Yet, without specific Scripture that says so, it's just that, an assumption without evidence.

You should really stop making emphatic statements like "there is no evidence from Scripture to support that notion."

That is a challenge for the poster to provide evidence for what they claim.

If there is clear evidence, they should provide it. When they don't, I challenge them to provide it.

 

[JLB]

a 'believer' cannot cease to believe because faith (the ability to believe) did not originate with the person, but with God.

Faith comes by hearing God directly, or through the preaching of the word of God.

Faith is given by God as a gift.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Ephesians 2:8

The way faith, which is the substance of the thing hoped for [salvation], is activated in our life is by believing.

God gives faith, our part is to believe, what God has said, and demonstrate we believe what God has said, by doing what God has said.

Faith, without the work of obedience is dead.

God doesn't do the believing for us, but we must believe, which means we must obey the Gospel.


Those who believe the Gospel, obey the Gospel.


7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

How about those who believe for a while, then begin to live as drunkard's as unsober, and carousing at night, living as an immoral person, who lies and steals, while they practice the works of the flesh, because they fell away?

Paul addressed that in 1 Thess 5:4-10, by contrasting lifestyle of unbelievers and believers, and concluded that whether the believer was "awake or asleep" would live with Christ forever.

Is a person who believes for a while, still considered a believer, even though they have returned to "unbelieving".

The Bible calls them an apostate. Your unwillingness to use that word reminds me of our current administration that won't call Muslim terrorists "Muslim terrorists".

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. 1 Thessalonians 5:6-10

It is v.10 that refutes your claims. But the context begins in v.4.

Paul stated that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, or "whether we are asleep or awake, we will be together with Him" in 1 Thess 5:10. The context begins in v.4 and contrasts believers with unbelievers, or day with night, or being alert with being asleep or sober with drunkeness.

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;

5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;

6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.

7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.

8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Analysis of this passage:

v.4 tells us that believers are "not in darkness"

v.5 differentiates believers (sons of light and day) with unbelievers (not of night or darkness).

v.6 encourages believers to not live like unbelievers (not sleep as others do, but be alert and sober).

v.7 describes unbelievers and what they do.

v.8 explains that "since we are of the day" (believers), we need to be sober.

v.9 explains the destiny of the believer - not destined for wrath but for salvation

v.10 says that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, we will live together with Him.

OK, there is my analysis (exegesis) of the passage. Please point out verse by verse where I've gone wrong. Thanks.

 

[JLB]

The meaning is clear from Luke 8:13 - Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. NIV

The phrases in red relate to each other. To "fall away" in Luke 8:13 is to cease to believe after a while. Very simple.

Jesus said nothing about being saved in v.13.


The statement can be taken in any number of ways, so is just a silly statement. There are NO verses that equate falling away with loss of salvation. One can only assume that in Luke 8:13.

Again, to "fall away" in Luke 8:13 is to fall away from the faith, or to cease to believe.

It's just a huge leap to equate ceasing to believe with ceasing to be saved. There is no evidence from Scripture to support that notion.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. Luke 8:11-15

The context of this parable is the preaching of the message of the kingdom of God, and those who will be saved.

According to The Lord:

Believe = Saved

What does believe for a while mean, but saved for a while.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


Those who believe the Gospel are saved.
Those who believe the Gospel for a while, are saved for a while.


If the context of this teaching by Jesus Christ is not about the preaching of the Gospel and salvation, then please explain to us, what it is about?





JLB

 

[atpollard]

Since you seem to prefer to respond to a paragraph, one sentence at a time rather than to the entire combined, coherent thought, let's try it your way ...

I said this:
"Why assume "death" in Deut refers to eternal death? The obvious meaning in the OT was physical death."

Because there is no evidence in the OT to eternal life, so the context for understanding what Moses thought is what was written at the time and the beliefs of the people to whom God gave the words, since God does not set out to trick people with scripture. Since Moses and the people to whom he wrote Deuteronomy had nothing to indicate a promise of eternal life and strong evidence of a relationship with God in this life and a curse to return to dust, physical death was the ultimate punishment both physically and spiritually. Please refute this with scripture rather than opinion ... I cannot provide a scripture that doesn't exist to support my contention that the Pentateuch does not promise life after death.

Based on what I said, your request/question doesn't fit.

Actually, it does. Your claim is that there is a difference between physical death and spiritual death in Deuteronomy and I claim that there is no support that the people to whom it was given would have understood it in that way. You are ignoring the scriptural and historic context of the Law which contradicts your opinions.

That's nice, but the OP isn't about "modern Judaism".

No it isn't, but modern Judaism offers some insight into historic Judaism that is readily available to non-experts. This was intended as a minor support for the points above and below it by linking the Scripture which we can read for ourselves with Ancient Judaism that we must rely on the opinions of experts to interpret.

So, who did God say "kill them" to? Moses. Did Moses have the power of eternal death?

To the people hearing the Law, YES! At least so they believed. The promise was that God would be their God and they would be His People in this life, and after this life, they would return to the dust from which they were created. Thus physical death was also spiritual death. Even more important, you are missing the fact that in each of those cases, they are being killed to remove them from the Covenant People! That is the OT equivalent of "UN-SALVATION" (excommunication). God is no longer their God and they are no longer his people. Even if they knew of a heaven, those put to physical death under the law would not have been heaven bound.

The point you have ignored ts that it was the NIV Footnote that pointed out that the NT quote was based on these OT passages. Why did the Holy Spirit want these OT passages referenced in that NT passage? How does that relate to the topic of loosing your salvation?

I think you've just refuted your own view.

My "view" is that it is improper to claim that there is no evidence supporting the possibility of loosing your salvation in Scripture, when it can easily be demonstrated that there are many verses which COULD be interpreted to say exactly that. As someone who believes that "once saved, always saved", we must have an answer for these verses or admit that we don't. We must not claim that they do not exist. That is my view.

 

[smaller]

Because there is no evidence in the OT to eternal life, so the context for understanding what Moses thought is what was written at the time and the beliefs of the people to whom God gave the words, since God does not set out to trick people with scripture.

Sorry to interject but that doesn't hold true. The Tree of Life is presented very early on in Genesis and I'm pretty sure the people of Israel and their progenitors were all quite familiar with that fact. Gen. 2:8 and Gen. 3:22.

 

[JLB]

Paul addressed that in 1 Thess 5:4-10, by contrasting lifestyle of unbelievers and believers, and concluded that whether the believer was "awake or asleep" would live with Christ forever.

7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night.

Paul is contrasting two types of people.

Those who sleep at night: children of the Day.
Those who get drunk at night: children of the night.


Paul teaches us that night is the appropriate time for those who are of the Day, to sleep.

In contrast to those who are of the night, get drunk at night, and of course when daylight comes, these who have been drinking all night, go to sleep. Manifesting that they are children of the night.

• Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.

"Sleeping as other's do", is sleeping during the day, because they have been drinking during the night.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 1 Thessalonians 5:6-8

Sober = Putting on the breastplate of faith.
Putting on the helmet as hope of salvation.


We as Christians, who have "put on the helmet" have the "hope of salvation", which we will receive at the end.

• Paul then concludes his message of comfort to those who have lost loved ones, in which he uses the metaphor for physical death, as sleep, as the context dictates.

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

• The words of comfort, are that those who have previously died, will be together with Jesus, along with those who are alive and remain, at the coming of the Lord, in which all will be together with the Lord.

• Those who sleep [physically dead] will be together with the Lord, along with those who are awake [physically alive], at the coming of the Lord.

5 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:10


...live together with Him, is the key phrase, that teaches us Paul is referring to those who are asleep [physically dead] being made alive, together, with those who are alive and remain [awake].

that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.


This certainly does not mean that Paul is teaching that the ungodly, will be together with the righteous at the resurrection.

Your attempting to teach us that the children of the night, will be together with the children of the Day, at the resurrection, when He comes.



JLB

 

[atpollard]

God gives faith, our part is to believe, what God has said, and demonstrate we believe what God has said, by doing what God has said.

Thank you, I really like your posts. (I wish I could give a 'like' on A&T)
You articulate your position well and support it with appropriate scripture.

A proper response would drift too far from 'perseverance' into initial 'salvation', but a Reader's Digest version is ...
1. Dead in sin with heart of stone (dead heart) = incapable of anything.
2. Dead contribute nothing to their 'second birth', we just lay there helpless.
3. God gives new heart (flesh = alive) and faith and grace and we are now saved! (chosen before the foundation, those whom the Father has given to the Son).
4. We are finally ABLE to respond with belief, and obedience and walk in the works prepared by God in advanced (but we are already saved).
5. Since I didn't do #3, I can't undo #3 ... not of works that no man shall boast. To God alone belongs all of the Glory.

For the OP: A counterfeit #3 produces something that looks like #4 sitting in a pew, but does not stand up to the test and persevere and fruit and join Christ on the Last Day.

 

[atpollard]

Sorry to interject but that doesn't hold true. The Tree of Life is presented very early on in Genesis and I'm pretty sure the people of Israel and their progenitors were all quite familiar with that fact. Gen. 2:8 and Gen. 3:22.

So how do you get to the tree of life?
My Bible places an angel to keep man out and a curse that man will return to dust.
Did I miss the lifting of that curse in the Pentateuch?

[EDIT] That read harsher than I intended. Sorry.
There was a reason that the Sadducee did not believe in the resurrection of the dead, while the Pharisees did. The Sadducee only accepted the Pentateuch of Moses as scripture ... which does not speak of an afterlife, while the Pharisees accepted the writings of the Prophets as well which is where the concept of an afterlife is revealed to the people.

So YES, God is eternal, angels live forever and Adam and Eve were created to live forever. Our eternal life was lost in the fall and the patriarchs lived with only the promise of God in this life to guide them. God had bigger plans and had placed hints as far back as the fall, but God has only slowly pulled back the curtain on how great and how merciful he really is. When Moses came down the mountain, being the people of God in this life was a HUGE deal as there was no promise of another. Only a curse and dust. Think what this meant, then, to be cut off from the People of God.

Death being the ultimate, permanent being cut off.

 

[chessman]

Paul himself says they believed the word they first heard which was about a risen Christ (vs.11).

Paul does not say that they all (everyone in Corinth) believed that Christ rose.

You make that assumption contrary to the Biblical evidence Paul himself states in verse 12 and 34 and elsewhere:

1 Corinthians 15:34 (NASB)Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.

1 Corinthians 6:14-15 (NASB) Now God has not only raised the Lord, but will also raise us up through His power. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be! ​

He does not say some had salvation but "later" have lost their salvation or knowledge of God. You make that assumption. Because you have to.

Plus, you asked for an answer to your question given the stipulation that some did not believe in reserrection (i.e. Did not really believe his Word to include Christ raised). I gave you an answer, as I have done in the past, yet you keep claiming no one has answered your question.

But you are claiming "unless you believed in vain" is referring to some of them not believing from the beginning.

That is correct. And was the stipulation you agreed to, "pretend" was true for the sake of argument.

Not believing in any ressurection (Christ or anyone else) from the time Paul was there (even before and after he left) as some among them did not believe in reserrection is to "believe in vain". Simple and Biblical. And I have provided the passage(s) that shows that to be true. I can't help that you can't see it. Nor do I care that you can't see it. But to claim no one has answered your question is not accurate.

It isn't until later that some were saying there is no resurrection of the dead,

What verse says it isn't till later that some were saying there is no ressurection? You realize that if it were not for Apollos and Paul preaching this "new" and "strange" idea of resurrection, no one their would believe it. Heck, if it weren't for Christ actually accomplishing resurrection and the Holy Spirit convincing me of it, I would believe it either.

Acts 17:18-19 (NASB) And also some of the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers were conversing with him. Some were saying, “What would this idle babbler wish to say?” Others, “He seems to be a proclaimer of strange deities,”—because he was preaching Jesus and the resurrection. And they took him and brought him to the Areopagus, saying, “May we know what this new teaching is which you are proclaiming? ​

Acts 23:6-8 (NASB) But perceiving that one group were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, Paul began crying out in the Council, “Brethren, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees; I am on trial for the hope and resurrection of the dead!” As he said this, there occurred a dissension between the Pharisees and Sadducees, and the assembly was divided. For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, nor an angel, nor a spirit, but the Pharisees acknowledge them all. ​

are of all men most to be pitied. (Romans 15:1-18 NASB)
A simple exercise in reading comprehension shows us what I'm saying is what is true.

It's simple enough to show that you are mistaken. That's not Romans 15, it's 1 Cor 15, nor does 1 Cor 15 say that every Corinthian believed in Christ's resurrection then 'later' stopped believing in resurrection.

 

[smaller]

So how do you get to the tree of life?

I was responding to your claim that eternal life wasn't trotted out in the O.T. It was trotted out very early in the O.T. And, having posted here for quite some time and never saw your claim before, other than another poster here tried to make the same claim a couple weeks ago.

My Bible places an angel to keep man out and a curse that man will return to dust.
Did I miss the lifting of that curse in the Pentateuch?

Would probably be a long conversation. Adam was actually cursed while he was still in the Garden by the first law, which included the curse of death.

Galatians 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse

When Adam got that first law, "do not eat" it signified that he was in fact a sinner. (1 Tim. 1:9), in short, the law is for the lawless and for sinners. That first law is no exception to the rule.

And as such, came the curse, with the law. The penalty for violation being death.

We can also read specifically about the conditions of Adam in 1 Cor. 15:42-46 and see that the state of the natural man is in dishonor, corruption, weakness in a natural body. I'd suggest that God had zero intentions of leaving Adam in a wet pile of dust from the start, as Paul shows us in 1 Cor. 15:42-46. There is a first/natural man and there is a second man, afterwards. This is the "Order" of God, first the natural, then the spiritual. This pattern is consistent and shown throughout the scriptures many times in many ways.

The observation made is that eternal life was shown by God to man very early in the scriptures and, not only that, but the fact that it COULD have been reached for, but wasn't. I'd suggest the natural man, Adam, was purposefully Divinely blinded to it (1 Cor. 2:14, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2). If the natural man Adam had any sense or inkling a'tall that would have been the very first stop he should have made on his way to hunger, to the TREE OF LIFE whereby upon eating he'd have lived forever. But there was no direct statement to Adam about the tree of Life, even though it was there. Adam only received instructions about the infamous "other tree."

I'd suggest the information was purposefully hidden from him, even while he was in the Garden, in God Himself. That "tree" must be by rights connected to God Himself OR we have two sources of eternal life, a tree and God, which of course brings a picture of polytheism into the framework that can't hold scriptural water. IF there was a tree of life, it was perhaps not appealing enough for them to take a second look to eat of it, by comparison to other trees/fruits. Probably some dried up wrinkly gnarly looking figs or something with some nice big leaves that were stripped off to cover their behinds when they got it trouble with the law. But that's just speculation on my part. :drool

 

[jasonc]

In the torah,Moses says blot me out of thy book oh lord. If It was only only death why say that?

Next,sheol is mentioned in Genesis,and job.2 samuel.David said about his baby son who dying that after death he too Wil join him.so David was talking about seeing him in grave while he was dead?

Fir some idea on Jewish afterlife look at the kaddish.it goes back to the time Of jesus.

 

[FreeGrace]

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. Luke 8:11-15

The context of this parable is the preaching of the message of the kingdom of God, and those who will be saved.

According to The Lord:
Believe = Saved

What does believe for a while mean, but saved for a while.

That's just an assumption without any evidence. One must take that huge leap of assumption to make that conclusion, since the Bible NOWHERE makes that claim. It is not reasonable to believe something that must be assumed and without direct Scriptural support.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

All this says is that there are some believers who will only believe for a while because of temptations/testings. It says nothing about not being saved when they no longer believe.

Those who believe the Gospel are saved.
Those who believe the Gospel for a while, are saved for a while.

Pure and unadulterated speculation only. I'll have none of it.

Please show me a verse that actually SAYS that. I'm not interested in assumptions, opinions, or speculations.

If the context of this teaching by Jesus Christ is not about the preaching of the Gospel and salvation, then please explain to us, what it is about?

Sure. The parable is about fruit production, obviously. Soil #1 wasn't saved. Soils #2 and 3 were saved, as noted by the seed germinating and producing plants, but for the reasons that Jesus gave, did not produce fruit. Only soil #4 was saved AND produced fruit.

If the parable was about how to be saved, then Jesus was teaching that one must produce fruit. Keep in mind that Jesus never even said the 4th soil believed. But since the 4th soil produced plants, new life from the seed obviously indicates salvation.

But the point was about fruit production, and what gets in the way of it. Temptations and distractions. he was warning about those things that keep believers from producing fruit.

 

[atpollard]

I repent of bringing up death in the OT! :wink
I just meant in the Pentateuch (as Deuteronomy would have been understood by those first reading it).

 

[jasonc]

I repent of bringing up death in the OT! :wink
I just meant in the Pentateuch (as Deuteronomy would have been understood by those first reading it).

The torah as revelation was passed on.I believe it was in near the Moses death that the torah was complete.Joshuas time.yet from then until Matthew of the brit chadosh the idea of sheol as known was taught.but the midrash is for another thread .