Perfect Tense for "saved" proves eternal security

[GodsGrace]

The meaning is clear from Luke 8:13 - Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. NIV

The phrases in red relate to each other. To "fall away" in Luke 8:13 is to cease to believe after a while. Very simple.

Jesus said nothing about being saved in v.13.


The statement can be taken in any number of ways, so is just a silly statement. There are NO verses that equate falling away with loss of salvation. One can only assume that in Luke 8:13.

Again, to "fall away" in Luke 8:13 is to fall away from the faith, or to cease to believe.

It's just a huge leap to equate ceasing to believe with ceasing to be saved. There is no evidence from Scripture to support that notion.

I'm not depending on Luke 8 or any one scripture.
Tomorrow.

 

[FreeGrace]

Did you ever look up the Didache.

No.

Do you care what John the Apostle taught?

Not only care very much, but read through his epistles every month.

There was no original church?

You mean like a denomination? No. There were assemblies of believers, sure. But no specific denomination for centuries. But, by the 3rd Century, we had the RCC, which was a total theological disaster.

How did we get here?

From our parents.

When did it start?

When they got together.

 

[FreeGrace]

You don't need to help me understand scripture, but I thank you for your thoughtfulness.

BTW
I'm not worried about what God will think of me because He won't be seeing me but His son.

Well, He sees His Son right now, because He is sitting at His right hand. But maybe you're right, and He won't be seeing you. That's between Him and you.

 

[GodsGrace]

No.


Not only care very much, but read through his epistles every month.


You mean like a denomination? No. There were assemblies of believers, sure. But no specific denomination for centuries. But, by the 3rd Century, we had the RCC, which was a total theological disaster.


From our parents.


When they got together.

LOL
Thanks for the laugh!
Must go.
Serious discussion to follow.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, He sees His Son right now, because He is sitting at His right hand. But maybe you're right, and He won't be seeing you. That's between Him and you.

Will show you this concept tomorrow.
STOP writing!!!

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"The Bible is very clear about the unpardonable sin. Matt 12:31-32 tells us what it is.

"We" aren't even able to commit that particular sin. Check out the reference."

Come on FreeGrace.
Give us some credit.
" We". = the human race, NOT the saved.
Really !!

Apparently chessman's advice and help about bible gateway wasn't taken and Matt 12:31-32 wasn't read. Sad.

ps: "we" isn't the entire human race, but just a very small number of them. But those who have read Matt 12:31-32 already know that.

 

[FreeGrace]

If you cease to believe it means you don't believe anymore.
Same condition as those who never believed.

Opinion only.

 

[GodsGrace]

I said this:
"The Bible is very clear about the unpardonable sin. Matt 12:31-32 tells us what it is.

"We" aren't even able to commit that particular sin. Check out the reference."

Apparently chessman's advice and help about bible gateway wasn't taken and Matt 12:31-32 wasn't read. Sad.

ps: "we" isn't the entire human race, but just a very small number of them. But those who have read Matt 12:31-32 already know that.

Huh?

Chessman was being nice, just like a Christian should be.
Did you read my post to him?

 

[FreeGrace]

Will show you this concept tomorrow.
STOP writing!!!

You first!!!!!

 

[GodsGrace]

I said this:
"The Bible is very clear about the unpardonable sin. Matt 12:31-32 tells us what it is.

"We" aren't even able to commit that particular sin. Check out the reference."

This leads me to believe that you're really not serious about what God's word says.

This is the second time you've told me this.
Maybe we should end our discission if this is what you believe?

 

[GodsGrace]

Seems more like not depending on ANY Scripture to me.

But anyone is free to pick and choose from Scripture what they will accept or reject.

Exactly what You do...

 

[GodsGrace]

You first!!!!!

I said it first!!!
Good night FreeGrace.

 

[atpollard]

This is what I said:
"Those who misunderstand Scripture and think that the "prize" is salvation are not approved workmen, nor do they rightly divide the word of truth, per 2 Tim 2:15.
As such, I see no point in further discussion of the other verses posted."
Unless you didn't mean to suggest that salvation is a prize, then my statement stands on 2 Tim 2:15.
Salvation isn't a prize in ANY SENSE of the word.
Please provide any verse that teaches loss of salvation during the sanctification process.

Respectfully, I did. You refused to comment on it other than state that there was no point in commenting on it. You have also ignored the explanations that I have provided twice on how that verse applies to the appearance of the loss of salvation as well as the other verses that I have provided. I have carefully avoided discussing salvation as a prize or reward or anything earned because I am a Calvinist and because that is not the topic set out in the OP. The OP is about perseverance not earning salvation, so your focus on the 'prize' misses the point. Paul expressed concern about DISQUALIFICATION which is an issue related to the OP and which you have ignored.

I see little to be gained by retreading that ground a third time.

 

[atpollard]

Why assume "death" in Deut refers to eternal death? The obvious meaning in the OT was physical death.

Please provide the OT verse on eternal life?
Modern Judaism teaches that after life comes worm food.
I am not an expert on ancient Judaism, but I will need scriptural support from the Pentateuch to convince me that Moses meant something other than eternal Death when he said, God said to kill them.

 

[atpollard]

Why don't you believe that eternal life is irrevocable??

I do.
I don't believe that you have proven your case.

You attack with the strong pro-eternal security verses, but you sidestep the verses that seem to challenge our POV.
Wondering has stated that she is not where she has access to a Bible, so you constantly respond to her by demanding a verse in support of some fairy traditional Free Will belief. I have simply been offering the sort of verses that Wondering would be providing if she had a Bible handy. It has been disappointing watching you sidestep the issues with glib dismissals.

For my own part, I quite literally did nothing to earn my salvation. I was not even baptized. I was involved in organized crime (gangs), engaged in arson and smuggling drugs across state lines. I was also planning a murder-suicide and hated even the thought of an indifferent monster in the sky as much as any man living. God quite literally chose me and I, without a doubt, did not choose him. I did not embrace 'Calvinism' because it gave me the warm and fuzzies, I had no choice but to acknowledge the reality that my salvation was 100% an act of God done for reasons that had nothing to do with me. Even I would have damned me if I were the judge. So I can accept no view of salvation that requires effort or merit on the part of the saved. The empirical evidence of my life will not support such a world view. Only Calvinism fits the facts of my life and transformation.

However, that also means that I have no stones to throw. I understand how someone can read scripture and believe that their salvation requires perseverance. The Bible says that our faith will be tested and proved. The Bible says many will fall away. The Bible says many are called but few are chosen. The seed falling on the path and the rocky ground both present a frightening picture. So, too does the thought of Paul fearing disqualification. All of these verses need to be answered. They need to be understood. I have my answers. Those who believe in Free Will have a different answer. I enjoy comparing answers.

As a Calvinist, I am not responsible for their beliefs. I am only responsible for my beliefs and speaking the truth to the best of my ability. God does all of the heavy lifting.

 

[atpollard]

It's just a huge leap to equate ceasing to believe with ceasing to be saved. There is no evidence from Scripture to support that notion.

One 'huge leap' equating 'believing' with 'being saved' ...

Romans 10:9-11
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”

... and a small step to 'assume' that Luke 8:13 states that the opposite is also possible.
You should really stop making emphatic statements like "there is no evidence from Scripture to support that notion."
There are far too many Arminian Theologians to be that emphatic.

 

[Mike]

Deu 24:7 NIV - 7 If someone is caught kidnapping a fellow Israelite and treating or selling them as a slave, the kidnapper must die. You must purge the evil from among you.

'Falling Away' = expulsion = "God will judge those outside" [the Church] followed by a quote from Deuteronomy that references purging evil and results in DEATH!

Do we have to prove that ceasing to be saved = death or is that self-evident?

For the sake of brevity, I didn't quote your whole post, but it was all terrific. Much of what I've read from you has been great. I need clarification, though. In light of this post, FreeGrace asked this:

Why don't you believe that eternal life is irrevocable??

To which you responded with:

I do.
I don't believe that you have proven your case.

You are saying you do or don't hold to eternal security, even when a believer ceases to believe?

Thanks in advance. Either way you respond, it's great to have you in the discussion.

 

[Mike]

Just a reminder to everyone to keep the Rules for Posting in the A&T in mind. There have been quite a few posts lately without much thought, quickly dismissing other members. Remember, when you object to something someone said, it's necessary that you use scripture to support your contention that they are in error. Thanks.

 

[chessman]

People who wish to believe they conveniently cannot loss their salvation are incredibly good at writing their own dictionary.

I do hope you are feeling better today.

I posted the Biblical meaning for katechó (Hold fast) as it was communicated to Paul's readers from Thayer's lexicon and provided another verse where katechó is translated as "possess".

Can you reference a NT Greek Lexicon that defines katechó as "don't let go"?

http://biblehub.com/greek/2722.htm

 

[JLB]

If you want to believe you cannot fall away, as scripture plainly states, that is your prerogative.
I just pray that any new Christian reading along does not get confused.