Perfect Tense for "saved" proves eternal security

[WIP]

Even people that believe you can loose salvation can see that's what Paul is saying throughout 1 Cor 15 (not just v17).

There's a reason why believing in Christ's resurrection is of first importance.

Not only believing but the reality of His resurrection. We can believe what we want but the truth is He did rise and we need to believe the truth!

 

[chessman]

Not only believing but the reality of His resurrection.

If the reality of His ressurection didn't happen, then we're all in trouble. True! And Paul does point that out in this chapter too. Never denied that he does not address Christ's not rising's affect on us ALL.

But, Paul lays out his logical argument specifically to counter the "some among you" that did not believe in ressurection and were thusly still in their sins. Obviously.

Just as obviously as how verses 1-2 show the effects of believing in anything other than his gospel.

If he meant "unless YOU believed in vain" in 1 Cor 15:1-2 to be applicable to the hypothetical situation of Christ not being raised at all (versus what he said), he would have said "unless WE have believed in vain" as that 'reality' would apply to us all, including Paul. Obviously.

But that's not what he meant in 1-2 because he said you (not we).

 

[LovethroughDove]

I don't see 1 Corinthians in the same way you put it here. The way I read it, Paul was saying that if what they say is true (that Christ did not rise) then their (our) faith is pointless because without Christ rising from the dead, there is no hope, and we are still in our sins. He was presenting an argument for the validity of the Gospel.

Yes, but who is he really speaking to? Those of us who know the truth of the gospel already? Or, those who thought they were in the faith? I think this is what is being debated. And who is truly saved.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yeah, fire can be used in various ways. Fire can refine. Fire can destroy. John said Jesus would baptize with fire meaning he would destroy the myths about God and the obstacles to God.

Again, unless the word "fire" is attached to either "eternal" or "unquenchable", there is no reason to assume the word refers to hell.

 

[FreeGrace]

The argument is not that you have to hold on to the Holy Spirit. The argument is that you have to hold on to the word.

As I have said, to "hold onto the word" means to believe the word. Once believed, the believer is changed in many ways, NONE of which are said to be UN-done later on, for any reason. That's the argument that your position cannot argue reasonably.

Your position must ASSUME that these things can be UN-done:
1. salvation taken away
2. eternal life revoked (when the Bible clearly indicates that the gift of eternal life is irrevocable
3. being a child of God
4. being born again
5. a new creature
6. indwelt with the Holy Spirit (when the Bible teaches that the saved person is sealed with the Holy Spirit as a promise or guarantee for the day of redemption.

That is the point being addressed by the verses I posted.
And you have to be presently doing that in order to be presently saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB).

Of course if one is presently doing that they are presently saved.

The faulty argument is that if one ceases to believe, they cease to be saved. No Scripture says that.

Please note in John 10:28 that Jesus promises that those He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. And also note that He added NO conditions for the believer to NEVER PERISH.

Again, your position cannot argue otherwise.

Here's the problem with your argument.
Since Jesus himself is eternal life, if you no longer abide in him, then you no longer abide in eternal life.

I've just shown several indefensible problems with your own argument. And to abide means to have fellowship. But your position fails to understand the difference between relationship and fellowship, which leads to a total misunderstanding of many passages.

But hyper-grace doctrine says that you still have eternal life (Jesus Christ) even though you no longer have Jesus Christ because of unbelief.

The Bible doesn't teach hyper-grace. The very plain grace of God covered all sins for all humans. Therefore, there is NOTHING anyone can do to UN-do what God has already done for those who have believed.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"iow, if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless, BECAUSE HE NEVER DIED FOR YOUR SINS; you are still in your sins."

Good, you get it.
Now explain it to chessman.

We're on the same page. It appears there is some confusion on your part.

 

[GodsGrace]

You replied to me (who did bring up the Lexicon definition of the word) stating:


I didn't write Thayer's Greek to English dictionary nor do I write my own in any sense.

Okay, but no dictionary will list that as a possible meaning of "possess" just as no Greek to English Lexicon will list "don't let go" as the meaning of the word Paul used.
And there's a good reason why they don't.

My point was/is, that you are doing that very thing (writing your own dictionary) for the word Paul used, not me.

How am I doing the same thing when I accept words and phrases at face value without twisting them around??

OSAS believers have their very own meaning for many biblical words and concepts.
Possess and hold onto means two different things for them.
Falling away doesn't really mean falling away.
They substitute loss of fellowship for loss of salvation.
Burning in fire means something different from destruction
Believe (present tense) somehow means past, present and future because some here fancy themselves to be professors of kolne Greek
Etc
Etc

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

What possible reason would make a person no longer 'desire to have Jesus in their life'??? I mean literally, what reason(s) would ever lead someone that has the Holy Spirit (and Jesus) in them desire to "let go" of Him. It makes no sense to me. Plus, I am unaware of any Scripture that describes someone who has The Spirit in them desiring to 'let go of Him'. Are you?

Are you serious?
You don't know anyone who has fallen away?
How about a doctor at the age of about 50 who decides God is not good because he's "seen too much".
How about a priest. Do you think priests don't have the Holy Spirit? THEN, in later life, they lose it.

Hebrews 6:4-6
Hebrews 3:12-19

and others.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm now wondering. You denoted a difference between eternal security, OSAS, and eternal life. Then only descibed what eternal life was.

Please explain the difference between the 3. They are exactly the same for me. I'd like to know the difference from your perspective.

They are not exactly the same.
They are very different, in fact.

I only explained eternal life because OSAS is understood by everyone and is the same as eternal security.

So, there are only two.
Eternal life
and Eternal Security OR OSAS.

If you check, you'll find that eternal security is the 5th point of the Calvinist tulip and the same as OSAS.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

But the Bible says that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Other verses say that we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. I see no difference.

Now, where does the Bible say or teach that it is US who has to "hold on to" the Holy Spirit? I haven't found any. And I have been reading through monthly for over 10 years.

Keep reading. You've got a long way to go. We're always learning - every day.

We're sealed with the Holy Spirit. I already explained to you how messages were sent by sealing the envelope back then. The message in the envelope could be UNDONE, "unsealed" if you wish. But it's nonsense to take one verse out of context such as you do.

The Holy Spirit will NOT leave us.
But WE could leave the Holy Spirit.

I just gave Chessman two quotes.

Here:

Hebrews 6:46
Hebrews 6:4-6 ESV /
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.


Revelation 2:4-5 ESV /
But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

Hebrews 3:12-19 ESV /
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end. As it is said, “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.” For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses? ...


Romans 11:19-22 ESV /
Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

Many more...

It seems so clear.
No Greek necessary...

Wondering

 

[LovethroughDove]

The faulty argument is that if one ceases to believe, they cease to be saved. No Scripture says that.

Oh my goodness. I am stuck theologically right in the middle between you and people who say you can have the Spirit depart from you somehow. Even though Jesus says this: John 14:16-17 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever - the Spirit of Truth.

Scripture doesn't say "cease to be saved", because born agains don't stop believing the truth. Everyone else that was in the faith, but not born again can stop believing.

 

[GodsGrace]

Excuse me, but Paul's contrast in this passage is about lifestyle, not being alive or dead in Him. In fact, there is no such thing as being "dead in Him". Those who are spiritually dead are NOT "in Him" at all.

The point of the passage is about contrasting lifestyles of believers with unbelievers. I pointed that out verse by verse. All you've done is make a general comment about v.4-6 and then jumped to v.10.


Whoa! Why insert Jn 11 and 1 Tim 1:10 into the passage. The passage is its own context.

I addressed EACH verse in the passage. Please do the same to show that my explanation is in error.


Very good question and very easy answer!!

We are admonished and implored to good behavior because of gaining eternal reward and blessings in this life. Is that not motivation?


I just answered the question. But it seems the Arminian view simply dismisses the promise of eternal reward for faithfulness and blessings during this life.

I suggest you re-read all of 1Thessalonians 5.
I don't have time to argue this.
I inserted other scripture because that's how the bible is STUDIED. Not verse by verse as you do. Because you pick out the ones you particularly like and "support" your theory.

I did post what was necessary. The other verses in Thessalonians are not important to your argument.
Lifestyle.
I repeat.

WHY WOULD PAUL EVEN SPEAK ABOUT LIFESTYLE UNLESS IT WAS VERY IMPORTANT?
The prize is heaven.

1 Corinthians 9:24-27 ESV /
Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air. But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

Heaven is the imperishable prize.
Do you think Paul would be disqualified from some "prize" to receive in heaven?
Was he so vain as to require prizes? He was preaching and suffering for a "prize"??
NO. He was worried about losing salvation and heaven!

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Oh my goodness. I am stuck theologically right in the middle between you and people who say you can have the Spirit depart from you somehow. Even though Jesus says this: John 14:16-17 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever - the Spirit of Truth.

Scripture doesn't say "cease to be saved", because born agains don't stop believing the truth. Everyone else that was in the faith, but not born again can stop believing.

LovethroughDove,
Do not misunderstand.
The Holy Spirit is your comforter and paraclete.
He NEVER leaves you.
YOU must desire to leave Him.

Wondering

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

FreeGrace said: ↑
The faulty argument is that if one ceases to believe, they cease to be saved. No Scripture says that.

This is true.
It's been said many times and the other side keeps finding excuses not to address it.

 

[GodsGrace]

I just don't get it. I was being lead away from a desire to have Christ in me before I accepted Christ in me, but not after.

At this point, having the Holy Spirit in me, I detest the adversary so much more than before. Before, Satan was a friend and could and did lead me away from Christ. Now that Satan is an enemy, I hate him and don't get lead by Him near as much as before. You'd think Satan missed his chance before people get the Helper.

But that's just me and what I see Biblically. I can't speak for others or what they see.

Yes Chessman.
But satan is still TRYING.

Wondering

 

[LovethroughDove]

NO. He was worried about losing salvation and heaven!

Wondering

He was not worried about "his" salvation, but the salvation of those who claimed to be in the faith.

 

[GodsGrace]

FreeGrace said: ↑
The faulty argument is that if one ceases to believe, they cease to be saved. No Scripture says that.

This is true.
It's been said many times and the other side keeps finding excuses not to address it.

Please reply to post no. 451 and 453.

Do those verses mean nothing??
Thanks.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

LovethroughDove,
Do not misunderstand.
The Holy Spirit is your comforter and paraclete.
He NEVER leaves you.
YOU must desire to leave Him.

Wondering

You're telling someone they must desire to leave God?
Think about what you are saying.
Ever hear a preacher give a sermon on this?

 

[GodsGrace]

He was not worried about "his" salvation, but the salvation of those who claimed to be in the faith.

No LovethroughDove,
Please read the scripture again:


1 Corinthians 9:24-27 ESV /
Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air. But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

Paul is speaking abut HIMSELF.

 

[GodsGrace]

You're telling someone they must desire to leave God?
Think about what you are saying.
Ever hear a preacher give a sermon on this?

That's is NOT what I meant and I'm sure you know it.

I meant that the Holy Spirit NEVER leaves a person unless that person WANTS the Holy Spirit to leave.
How do they want it?
They don't believe anymore. They, for whatever reason, have lost their faith.

You believe - you're saved.
You don't believe - you're not saved.

You must believe to be saved. If you no believe longer at some point in your life, HOW COULD YOU STILL BE SAVED???
John 3:16

Wondering