Pre-Trib Rapture

[Hitch]

hitch thats just plain antisemetic. ironically.

LOL nahhh this might qualify though;

The Purpose of the Tribulation is the Jews Salvation.

 

[Hitch]

ironically it was in the defense of futurism that i saw it for it was. and most of the time futurists would be the ones to push me from it. when i got more into judiasm and chiefly hebrew roots i found the idea of some zionist supremacy that overshadows the cross isnt what the sages nor writers of the tanach ever taught. that is a pharisitical thing. whiles it true per justim martyr that the millenium was taught by some but it wasnt like today. nor was it dominant.

The low view of the cross , so common in futurism, is possibly the worst doctrine held by believers.

 

[Stormcrow]

Which trib is the rapture supposed to happen before? There are two mentioned in the Olivet Discourse.

 

[jasoncran]

without going into a conspicary theory or antisemetic. its my belief that schofield was used by jews to get christian support for the return to the land. not that i mind the jews and kin doing that but lets NOT force the bible to support that before his arrival and final judgement.

just a thought. that said what i dont get is how most christians today that love isreal and are futurist will bless the jew for doing the holy days. sure i can do them and talk to them about that but well they need to know. any one who has links or read cufi's stuff knows what i mean.

 

[jasoncran]

i will whip out one of the comments by the sages and the ramban on the third temple and its all from a commentary on issac when he redug his dads well. yitshock is hebrew for issac.

a blind jew gets it better then most futurists!

The Ramban1 notes that the three wells dug by Yitzchok hint at the three Temples the two that have been destroyed, and the third, which will be built when our righteous Moshiach comes, may it be speedily in our days.
"A well of living waters" alludes to the Temples, for they are called "living waters." When G-d first commanded that the Tabernacle be built, He said:2 "And you shall make for Me a Temple ([a holy place], and I shall dwell among them." Our sages3 observe that it would seem more appropriate for the verse to have said, "And I shall dwell in it." Why then does the verse say "I shall dwell among them"?
It means to teach us, say our sages, that G-d dwells within each and every Jew, that every Jewish mind and heart is a Temple to G-d.
There are two ways of serving G-d: drawing down from above, and elevating that which is below.
The Temple is termed a "well," because, like a well, the main services there involved elevating that which was below.
The service of Torah study is an example of drawing down that which is above. When a person conducts himself in accordance with the Torah, its light illuminates all his physical affairs. Torah is wholly "above," for it is G-d's wisdom and will.4 It illuminates what is "below," as it is written: "and Torah is illumination."5 All that is necessary [for the illumination to permeate this world] is for a person to conduct himself in accordance with the Torah.
The second kind of spiritual service is elevation from below, a prime example of which is prayer. Prayer elevates all that is below by purifying and refining it. This is like a well, drawing up from below, as it is written:6 "Well, arise!" Though the service of prayer, similar to a well, is from below to above, nevertheless it is to be permeated with the spirit of Torah, just as the study of Torah must be in accordance with the humility that permeates prayer, as our sages have said:7 "One should begin praying only after attaining a state of serious [and humble] demeanor."
Contemplating G-d's greatness during prayer helps one realize the true quality of Torah that it is G-d's divine wisdom and will, and therefore must be studied with humility. The verse8 states it thus: "My tongue shall but repeat Your sayings," like one who repeats exactly what he has heard. When one studies Torah, one should feel as if he were repeating [after G-d] the divine words which are Torah.
All this results from one's service of prayer. Similarly, one's prayer should be in accordance with Torah. This then is the meaning of "Garden springs; a well of living waters..." The spiritual service that resembles "a well of living waters" reveals the "garden springs" of the soul.
In summary: The three wells hint at the three Temples. The first and second Temples were destroyed because of our sins. This is the meaning of Eisek and Sitnah, argument and enmity [sins of baseless hatred that caused the destruction of the Temple]. Rechovos, "broad spaces" refers to the third Temple, which shall be eternal. The service of Torah is to draw down, and the service of prayer is to elevate.
From chabad.org

 

[Man-After-God]

It is as circular as a ball going down a drain, as is most pre-trib writing.

I would argue that post tri, mid trib, and pre trib writing, all seem to do the same depending on who says what and how it is stated.

Who is right? One day we will find out for sure!

 

[jasoncran]

I would argue that post tri, mid trib, and pre trib writing, all seem to do the same depending on who says what and how it is stated.

Who is right? One day we will find out for sure!

well noone will know till it happens, but answer me this. why would god judge jews of today for things that their ancestors did as a nation, what does modern isreal have to do to get saved?its really a simple thing. ya know its preached every sunday and wednesday in american churches. its called repent and confess that jesus is lord. the ac isnt needed to do that for them. the messiah came.

 

[reba]

The Ramban1 notes that the three wells dug by Yitzchok hint at the three Temples the two that have been destroyed, and the third, which will be built when our righteous Moshiach comes, may it be speedily in our days.

Solomons temple
Zerubbabel's
Herod's was finished about the time of Christ.

 

[jasoncran]

herod's temple was refurbishing of the zerrubbeals temple. the selucid dynasty burned it but didnt level it. still it was the smallest and defiled in that it was built by hand tools. the third temple there is the fleshly one.

jesus said he was a temple

destroy this temple and yet in three days i will raise it again

 

[reba]

Jason i think we derailed the thread well only sorta...


The topic is Pre-Trib Rapture

 

[jasoncran]

Jason i think we derailed the thread well only sorta...


The topic is Pre-Trib Rapture

its revalent. im sure if i could find ramban's comments on daniel it would be interesting.

should i use rashi on daniel 9 and compare with say adam clarke on the same?

 

[Hitch]

I would argue that post tri, mid trib, and pre trib writing, all seem to do the same depending on who says what and how it is stated.

Who is right? One day we will find out for sure!

I thought I should post an example, it was hard to choose from so many;


Dispensational theology, taught by nearly all pre-tribulationists, teaches that God has separate strategies for dealing with the Church and the Jews. When you consider the change in focus, during the tribulation, from the Church to Israel, the pre-trib rapture provides a good explanation for this transfer of attention.


oy vey

 

[MithrandirOlorin]

I'm referring to when the Nation Collectively accepts Yeshua.

 

[n2thelight]

What is your Opinion on this? Does scripture state anything concerning this or not? Why or Why not?

Just looking for answers.....:eeeekkk


I am Of the opinion that their is a Pre-Trib Rapture, but would like to hear others opinions and facts....

No rapture period,we are changed at the last trump (7th)then we gather to Christ,in Jerusalem..................All who died in Christ return with Him at that time........

 

[Stormcrow]

I'm referring to when the Nation Collectively accepts Yeshua.

There is no collective salvation. Period.

 

[Hitch]

I'm referring to when the Nation Collectively accepts Yeshua.

Jesus came for the lost sheep of Israel, and he gathered them all;

It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

 

[MithrandirOlorin]

There are revivals, the Salvation of Israel is what triggers the 2nd coming.

 

[Stormcrow]

...the Salvation of Israel is what triggers the 2nd coming.

The second coming was triggered by their refusal to accept Him and the persecution they brought upon His messengers, the apostles. Matthew 21-23 describes this.

His first coming was to save Israel. His second was to judge Israel. The new covenant is the kingdom under which all must be saved now. There is no "Plan C" with God.

 

[MithrandirOlorin]

Hosea 5:15 "I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."

 

[Stormcrow]

Which trib is the rapture supposed to happen before? There are two mentioned in the Olivet Discourse.

Bueller? Bueller?