Bible Study Predestination and Election in the Bible

[reba]

had you read the other post you would know i said the Master Chessman ... been talking so long to Nathan that might even be another thread...

 

[Douglas Summers]

Based off the other thread going on here, Eternal Life and Salvation in the Bible, we have a lot of talk of predestination and election in how it relates to salvation and eternal life. It sparked some interest in me, and it seems to be something a lot of other people are interested in also. Its interesting because I have heard several different radio programs talking about it this week.

So I figured we could look at it from a Biblical study perspective. Dig into the different passages that talk about it, and look at the different meanings of the words used in those passages. Not so much about speculation, but just serious study of what was written about the subject. I am sure there are a lot of rabbit trails that can be run down, but surely we can at least compile a list of the different passages that deal with this topic.

I'll start with the one I know of. I am not sure if it is the most popular one when people think of predestination and election, but it seems to be the one that lays out the process.

Romans 8:22-30
For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now.

And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.

And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

I'll start it off with just some simple observations. For one we cannot just look at the word predestination without looking at the entire passage. It seems that Paul was encouraging believers, letting them they are not alone in seeing all the bad stuff around them - letting them know there is hope. Defining hope as something that is not seen - not had already, but waited for. Also encouraging them that while they are still waiting with hope for this 'event', that the Spirit is in us and helps us.

Then......it gets into the 'deep' things of God by letting us know that God has a plan and purpose - even when we do not understand what it is. It really seems to me that Paul is letting them know that by knowing God has this plan, and the end of it is 'glorification' for us - which will be the adoption as sons and redemption of our bodies - that we can use this knowledge for our hope.

To me, this passage says nothing more than God knows the beginning and end, and His plan will work out just as He wants it. But the passage clearly states, with multiple words, that we have to wait for this and be patient for it - setting our hope on it.

I have heard several times that this is looked at as a thing already done, here and now. I can see that through faith, that God will do it, but Paul really seems to be saying "wait for it.....wait for it.....wait for it......"

Your thoughts?

The one thing to remember is this: ALL born again believers are predestined and called by the father in Jesus Christ. Those who believe in Christ were predestined to conform to the image of Christ. It is not by works, but by belief (faith) in the Gospel of God, and is not irrevocable. (Rom. 8:28-39) (Rom. 11:28-30).

 

[JLB]

had you read the other post you would know i said the Master Chessman ... been talking so long to Nathan that might even be another thread...

Did Jesus have a choice to do the Father's will?

Personally I believe He did.

53 Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels? 54 How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?” Matthew 26:53-54


He chose to suffer and die for us, that we could be saved.
He chose to fulfill the scriptures.
He could have called the angels and destroyed those who plotted against Him.

That is why it's so beautiful, because He did have a choice.

When we choose the Father's will, instead of our own, this pleases and glorifies the Father.

If we had no choice then why would it be special, a pleasing aroma, of a sacrifice rendered by love.

Love that is born of freewill.

Love that is chosen, rather than forced.


Indeed I have all and abound. I am full, having received from Epaphroditus the things sent from you, a sweet-smelling aroma, an acceptable sacrifice, well pleasing to God. Philippians 4:18

And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma.
Ephesians 5:2




JLB

 

[JLB]

Finish the sentence, please.
"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren."

That verse does not say that God predestined anyone "to be saved" (as many attempt to force the verse to say) but, that those He knew would be saved He predestined "to be conformed" to the image of His Son.

My only point was that it was whom He "foreknew"... which was a response to this remark you made.

The be able to choose requires that the chooser exist.
Before it was created, creation did not exist.
Since it did not exist, it could not choose.

Please consider that before man was created, God foreknew those He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son.


That's the only point I was making.


I was not suggesting that they were predestined to salvation.


I'm on the other side of that "belief".




JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

I know your post was directed toward Jethro, but you made a comment that I find hard to understand.

If God decides in certain cases, then how does one know if they are that certain case or not? To me its kind of like a light in a completely enclosed room. Either the light is on, or there is no light. The light can be "kind of" on, or even a "little" on, but its still on. When its off, there is zero light.

So, if God chooses in some cases, then no one can know if they are that case or not. Then, when Paul and others encourage "believers"(maybe?) about it, how can the believers say "yes, that's me"? They could only say, "I hope that's me. I hope I am one of the chosen ones".

Chooses for what?
I mean like
Noah
Jonah
Mary
Moses
Abraham
The prophets...

Each one of us would know if we were a chosen one!
Anyway, there are no new prophecies so my idea wouldn't even count anymore.

VERY SPECIAL people in the OT and NT, like John the Baptist, even Joseph.

 

[Edward]

Chooses for what?
I mean like
Noah
Jonah
Mary
Moses
Abraham
The prophets...

Each one of us would know if we were a chosen one!
Anyway, there are no new prophecies so my idea wouldn't even count anymore.

VERY SPECIAL people in the OT and NT, like John the Baptist, even Joseph.

I'm fuzzy about this. How would we know if we were a chosen one? And by chosen, do we mean, destined to do certain things and we have no choice about it? Or does it mean, that (since God sees the end from the beginning) that He destines an individual to perform certain tasks...because they (through free will) chose God, and their particular makeup makes them suitable for the task that God (assigns) to them?

 

[Nathan]

Chooses for what?
I mean like
Noah
Jonah
Mary
Moses
Abraham
The prophets...

Each one of us would know if we were a chosen one!
Anyway, there are no new prophecies so my idea wouldn't even count anymore.

VERY SPECIAL people in the OT and NT, like John the Baptist, even Joseph.

In that post the "chooses" was in reference to salvation. I completely believe that God chooses some for special purposes. No doubt. To carry out specific plans. We see them as "special" becuase they are written about while other things are not. That doesnt mean that He only chooses some for one reason, and then lets the rest of mankind just 'do there thing'. He has a purpose and plan for every single human being.

I just do not see where God chooses some for salvation, while not allowing other the option at all. I believe that when God says He desires, and calls all, that it means all - not just a certain number of people.

Jesus did not walk the streets of Israel and preach, calling on all men to come to Him, while at the same time not allowing some to respond. He knew many, if not most, would not. That doesn't mean He keeps them from it.

We do know that in order for God's plan to work out the way He wanted He partially hardened some Jews. Think about that. He says it was in order that the Gospel would be taken to the Gentiles. We know that this partial hardening is not permanent. So why would God partially hardened? Could it be that if He did not then they would have believed Jesus was the Messiah and then the plan of God would not have gone the same? Could it be that if He did not harden then they would have never crucified Christ?

So God does work out His plan, and He does choose some for a reason and to fulfill a purpose, but never do I find He makes it impossible for someone to come to faith. Hard - yes, impossible - no.

Here is some semantics for you. God chooses some for His plan of salvation, but desires all for the purpose of salvation.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm fuzzy about this. How would we know if we were a chosen one? And by chosen, do we mean, destined to do certain things and we have no choice about it? Or does it mean, that (since God sees the end from the beginning) that He destines an individual to perform certain tasks...because they (through free will) chose God, and their particular makeup makes them suitable for the task that God (assigns) to them?

I think the second one.
But I'm asking -- I'm not sure of this.
But couldn't it be the first one too?
Destined for BIG things, not like we'd have to worry if it were us or not.

 

[GodsGrace]

In that post the "chooses" was in reference to salvation. I completely believe that God chooses some for special purposes. No doubt. To carry out specific plans. We see them as "special" becuase they are written about while other things are not. That doesnt mean that He only chooses some for one reason, and then lets the rest of mankind just 'do there thing'. He has a purpose and plan for every single human being.

I just do not see where God chooses some for salvation, while not allowing other the option at all. I believe that when God says He desires, and calls all, that it means all - not just a certain number of people.

Jesus did not walk the streets of Israel and preach, calling on all men to come to Him, while at the same time not allowing some to respond. He knew many, if not most, would not. That doesn't mean He keeps them from it.

We do know that in order for God's plan to work out the way He wanted He partially hardened some Jews. Think about that. He says it was in order that the Gospel would be taken to the Gentiles. We know that this partial hardening is not permanent. So why would God partially hardened? Could it be that if He did not then they would have believed Jesus was the Messiah and then the plan of God would not have gone the same? Could it be that if He did not harden then they would have never crucified Christ?

So God does work out His plan, and He does choose some for a reason and to fulfill a purpose, but never do I find He makes it impossible for someone to come to faith. Hard - yes, impossible - no.

Here is some semantics for you. God chooses some for His plan of salvation, but desires all for the purpose of salvation.

No Nathan - I'm not speaking about salvation.
Who wishes to be saved, God will save. That's in our hands.

I'm thinking more along the lines of the beginning of your first paragraph.

How come some covenants are unilateral and unconditional unless God made the decision to achieve His purpose no matter what?

Here are some covenants that were unconditional:
Adamic (the Edenic was conditional on Adam's obeying God)
Noahic
Palestinian
Davidic
New Covenant

Was David chosen by God or he just happened to be at the right place at the right time?

 

[Nathan]

I'm fuzzy about this. How would we know if we were a chosen one? And by chosen, do we mean, destined to do certain things and we have no choice about it? Or does it mean, that (since God sees the end from the beginning) that He destines an individual to perform certain tasks...because they (through free will) chose God, and their particular makeup makes them suitable for the task that God (assigns) to them?

God's can purpose unbelievers and believers alike for His purposes. In that way God works out His plan for mankind.

God purposes believers to the predestined plan of becoming, being transformed, into the image of Christ. Unbelievers do not fit in or "qualify" for this purpose.

That is why we read;

Ephesians 1:3-10
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing gin the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

Paul has a tendency to write run on sentences. I relate to that. But what he is specifically stating about this "chose", before the 'foundation of the world', is that we should be holy and blameless before Him. Unbelievers cannot achieve this.

Paul is letting the reader know that it was not a 'chance' that they received faith, and it is not an 'unknown' of why God called them. I think there are a lot of people that think they came to God because they want to be in heaven. These people think that because they came, and they did what they heard they had to do, then God will accept them. They have faith - but its their own faith, not God's.

God has to first give a person that seed of faith - His faith. Once that faith takes root and a person believes in Christ for salvation, then they become sons. Paul wants to let these people know that there is a plan, predestined before they even believed, for their part in God's family.

As far as a specific purpose, that God calls people too, I always find that He tells them in some way or another in a very direct way. Undoubted knowing that God is calling him/her to do something.

As far as salvation, we know God calls all men, but that is not to say that all are called at the same time. Because God is a personal God, not one that does not care about us, He does call people individually. When He calls, that person has the choice to accept His gift or reject it. That's why it is written; "Today if you hear His voice, do no harden your hearts"

 

[GodsGrace]

(beaucoup dien cai dau)



You accept this passage of Joshua as written do you do the same for this one ..
Jos 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
Jos 21:44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
Jos 21:45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

This is because God made a Covenant with Abraham for the land.
God promised the land to Abraham.
God would make this happen, it did not depend on anybody.
So God must have helped Abraham is a special way in order for him to be ready for this great task.

 

[Nathan]

No Nathan - I'm not speaking about salvation.
Who wishes to be saved, God will save. That's in our hands.

I'm thinking more along the lines of the beginning of your first paragraph.

How come some covenants are unilateral and unconditional unless God made the decision to achieve His purpose no matter what?

Here are some covenants that were unconditional:
Adamic (the Edenic was conditional on Adam's obeying God)
Noahic
Palestinian
Davidic
New Covenant

Was David chosen by God or he just happened to be at the right place at the right time?

Oh boy. You have to ask the hard questions huh

I have to go do some work right now, but I'll be back later tonight. But a short answer is this. God has a plan and all He does leads up to a final fulfillment of it. We often look at different points in time as being different "dispensations", like God has changed direction with certain things. That's not true. You have to view this last 6000 years, and however many more we have to go, as one complete picture.

David was chosen. All the people God uses in major roles are chosen. He knew before hand that they would be there, in that place and time, and chose them before they were ever born.

 

[reba]

This is because God made a Covenant with Abraham for the land.
God promised the land to Abraham.
God would make this happen, it did not depend on anybody.
So God must have helped Abraham is a special way in order for him to be ready for this great task.

They had to obey...

Gen_22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
Gen_26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

 

[Nathan]

This is because God made a Covenant with Abraham for the land.
God promised the land to Abraham.
God would make this happen, it did not depend on anybody.
So God must have helped Abraham is a special way in order for him to be ready for this great task.

Just to go along with my post above. Abraham saw this big picture. We often think that this land is physical. It is, to a certain degree for a certain purpose, but Abraham saw the end. God showed him the everlasting promise land.

Hebrews 11:9-10
By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God.

 

[GodsGrace]

The choice was up to Judas to either continue to follow Jesus, and receive the promise, or to become a traitor.

Judas was a follower, a disciple, and Apostle of Jesus Christ, then became a traitor.




JLB

But it was necessary for Judas to be that traitor in order for God's plan to be fulfilled.
It was necessary that Mary say Yes.
Could she have said No?
It was necessary for Pharaoh to say No so that God's glory could be shown.
Could P. have said no?
Did he really choose to say no to Moses?
Moses tried saying No but God told Moses He was sending HIM, Moses

Exodus 3:1-15
Exodus 3:10

It doesn't seem like Moses had a choice.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes. He did. But Christ knew he wouldn't. Here is where the ways of God become unknowing to me. Why did Christ specifically pray for Peter to turn back to Him, but not Judas?

Luke 22:31-34
“Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.” Peter said to him, “Lord, I am ready to go with you both to prison and to death.” Jesus said, “I tell you, Peter, the rooster will not crow this day, until you deny three times that you know me.”

Jesus knew that Peter would turn back to Him again. I suppose that He knew Judas would not, and that is why He did not pray for him like Peter?

I'm just curious why it is hard to believe that Peter had a choice? Do we think that God had to make Peter deny Jesus in order for it to happen? It was not a Scripture that had to be fulfilled. It was just something that was going to happen. Jesus foreknew this, and told Peter specifically so that Peter would use this knowledge to strengthen the brothers.

I agree about Peter.
Re Judas: Jesus had said that it would have been better had Judas never been born.
So...
Jesus knew Judas would not repent.
So, God CHOSE not to have Judas repent??
OR, at that point, it WAS Judas' choice to stay lost...

 

[GodsGrace]

I see God's will in two ways: His Sovereign Will which will come to pass. His Permissive Will which allows free will to operate.

PZ
If God DOES have two wills, it's still only one will...

If HE WILLS to also have Permissive Will, isn't this still under His SOVEREIGN WILL??

His S.W. covers all...
God's sovereignty is found in Job 38:4

 

[GodsGrace]

As a father of two, there were things that I didn't allow in the home. ( I realize I couldn't stop them actually but...) and there were things where I allowed for freedom of choice. Both attitudes fell under my overall authority as the dad.

God's permissive will falls under his Sovereignty. It can happen because he allows it. He permits it. I use that category (permissive will) for my own sake. When God permits something, it goes to show He's still in control. He's permitting things but He could also not permit those things. By his sovereign power He allows it.

Sorry PZ
I answered the first post of yours before I read this.
Looks like we agree...

 

[JLB]

But it was necessary for Judas to be that traitor in order for God's plan to be fulfilled.

It was necessary for someone to betray Jesus, in which they became a guide for those who arrested Him.

It could have been Peter.

Only God, through His foreknowledge with perfect understanding, looked down through the future to see exactly the condition and motive of each person's heart, and to know with perfect knowledge exactly how every detail would play out with each person involved, and their freewill.

God's Plan was to provide a sacrifice for the sins of the world, in order to reconcile humanity back to Himself.

Integrating specific people, at specific times, in specific places in all the things that foreshadowed and led to Jesus dying on the cross at precisely the exact time, while at the same time allowing mankind to have a freewill, shows us the magnitude of God's wisdom and greatness, that should led us to the conclusion of us trusting Him with our lives to do so as He wills.

• Moses striking the Rock repeatedly, is an example of freewill, in opposition to God's perfect will.

JLB

 

[th1b.taylor]

In that post the "chooses" was in reference to salvation. I completely believe that God chooses some for special purposes. No doubt. To carry out specific plans. We see them as "special" becuase they are written about while other things are not. That doesnt mean that He only chooses some for one reason, and then lets the rest of mankind just 'do there thing'. He has a purpose and plan for every single human being.

I just do not see where God chooses some for salvation, while not allowing other the option at all. I believe that when God says He desires, and calls all, that it means all - not just a certain number of people.

Jesus did not walk the streets of Israel and preach, calling on all men to come to Him, while at the same time not allowing some to respond. He knew many, if not most, would not. That doesn't mean He keeps them from it.

We do know that in order for God's plan to work out the way He wanted He partially hardened some Jews. Think about that. He says it was in order that the Gospel would be taken to the Gentiles. We know that this partial hardening is not permanent. So why would God partially hardened? Could it be that if He did not then they would have believed Jesus was the Messiah and then the plan of God would not have gone the same? Could it be that if He did not harden then they would have never crucified Christ?

So God does work out His plan, and He does choose some for a reason and to fulfill a purpose, but never do I find He makes it impossible for someone to come to faith. Hard - yes, impossible - no.

Here is some semantics for you. God chooses some for His plan of salvation, but desires all for the purpose of salvation.

That line of thought drove to me into my position on the matter, great answer.