Bible Study Predestination and Election in the Bible

[JLB]

We were dead. Dead people cannot choose things, much less choose God. God loved us, made us alive through faith, faith gives us the ability to choose Him. So, He chooses us first, then we get to choose Him.

Be careful with this line of reasoning.

Spiritually dead people make choices everyday.

Their soul, mind, will and emotions still fuction.

I fully believe that Judas will not be on one of the thrones.

I agree, however it was intended for him to reign and rule with the others, until he chose to become a traitor.

Judas did indeed hear His Voice, and followed Him faithfully... for a while [31/2 years], then made the choice to become a traitor.

Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot who also became a traitor. Luke 6:16


JLB

 

[JLB]

God did not predestine Judas to do such, but knew he would and used it in His plan.

Yes sir.


JLB

 

[reba]

I read this last couple post to be saying the betrayal of Jesus was Judas' plan is was up to Judas...amazing ... Salvation was in the heart and mind of Judas 2

 

[reba]

I would like a answer , looking for understanding your mind/heart here, as to why the idea of God predestining some folks is so against your thinking Nathan

 

[reba]

Nathan
Mat_26:34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.
Mat_26:74 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew.

Did Pete have the choice to defy Christ?

 

[Jim Parker]

off topic
If yoiu wish to post about grammar and such open in the proper forum.. reba

 

[JLB]

I read this last couple post to be saying the betrayal of Jesus was Judas' plan is was up to Judas...amazing ... Salvation was in the heart and mind of Judas 2

The choice was up to Judas to either continue to follow Jesus, and receive the promise, or to become a traitor.

Judas was a follower, a disciple, and Apostle of Jesus Christ, then became a traitor.




JLB

 

[Nathan]

I read this last couple post to be saying the betrayal of Jesus was Judas' plan is was up to Judas...amazing ... Salvation was in the heart and mind of Judas 2

Judas did go along with the 'plan'. He did not do it unknowingly, and he was not forced. I have no doubt that at one point in Judas life of following Christ he desired salvation. But the troubling thing is he left that all for a messily bag of coins.

Matthew 26:14-16
Then one of the twelve, whose name was Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priests and said,
“What will you give me if I deliver him over to you?” And they paid him thirty pieces of silver. And from that moment he sought an opportunity to betray him.

Judas went to them. Then he sought an opportunity to betray Jesus. This was on his own accord, God did not make him do this - but God allowed it in order that the Scriptures would be fulfilled. If salvation was in Judas heart and mind, why would he seek to betray the one by which it came?

Matthew 26:20-25
When it was evening, he reclined at table with the twelve. And as they were eating, he said, “Truly, I say to you, one of you will betray me.” And they were very sorrowful and began to say to him one after another, “Is it I, Lord?” He answered, “He who has dipped his hand in the dish with me will betray me. The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.” Judas, who would betray him, answered, “Is it I, Rabbi?” He said to him, “You have said so.”

I don't think that a human destined to be in eternity would be labeled by God as one "better off not being born". But the most interesting part is Jesus answer to Judas - "You have said so". This is not a play on words. It is very clear that Jesus is saying that Judas has brought this on his own self. He desired, he sinned, and now that sin leads to his death. Just as James says.

 

[Nathan]

I would like a answer , looking for understanding your mind/heart here, as to why the idea of God predestining some folks is so against your thinking Nathan

I'm glad you asked. I think this is where people get the wrong idea of others. Its why I ask so many questions.

The fact is I think God predestines all of us, not just some. I just understand, from the Bible, that He does so according to His foreknowledge. I don't think that He predestined people, then looked at how they would react to the path He set them on. Some are predestined to glory, others to destruction. Predestination is simply a 'fore plan' of what He is doing.

I think that He set out a plan and saw how people would be inside that plan. The reason for predestination is for election. So that He could show us that He chooses us before we choose Him, so that works cannot play apart in salvation. God also uses foreknowledge to 'prove' to us that He is God and to let us know that there is a plan. It is an encouragement to me that He has predestined me to glory.

Foreknowledge cannot be separated from predestination, but all too often it is. When we do that, we look at things from the wrong angle.

Hope that helps you see my mind/heart here?

 

[Nathan]

Nathan
Mat_26:34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.
Mat_26:74 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew.

Did Pete have the choice to defy Christ?

Yes. He did. But Christ knew he wouldn't. Here is where the ways of God become unknowing to me. Why did Christ specifically pray for Peter to turn back to Him, but not Judas?

Luke 22:31-34
“Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.” Peter said to him, “Lord, I am ready to go with you both to prison and to death.” Jesus said, “I tell you, Peter, the rooster will not crow this day, until you deny three times that you know me.”

Jesus knew that Peter would turn back to Him again. I suppose that He knew Judas would not, and that is why He did not pray for him like Peter?

I'm just curious why it is hard to believe that Peter had a choice? Do we think that God had to make Peter deny Jesus in order for it to happen? It was not a Scripture that had to be fulfilled. It was just something that was going to happen. Jesus foreknew this, and told Peter specifically so that Peter would use this knowledge to strengthen the brothers.

 

[reba]

Hope that helps you see my mind/heart here?

Nope it read as circles yes He predestines but not really ....it really foreknowledge ..then a reason for predestination (election) which can't be predestination if it is foreknowledge

In the chance you missed it...what about Pete? Post #105

added:
You slid ol peter into the post

 

[reba]

I'm just curious why it is hard to believe that Peter had a choice? Do we think that God had to make Peter deny Jesus in order for it to happen? It was not a Scripture that had to be fulfilled. It was just something that was going to happen. Jesus foreknew this, and told Peter specifically so that Peter would use this knowledge to strengthen the brothers.

The same reason i don't believe the creation had a choice but to be created... He spoke it.

 

[reba]

We seems to disagree but i really enjoy the exchange ...

 

[Nathan]

edited as a reply to a deleted post

 

[Nathan]

The same reason i don't believe the creation had a choice but to be created... He spoke it.

Ah yes. Well, "creation" is a different critter. The same as angels. They cannot receive forgiveness. Humans are different than creation(although we are a creation of Him). So I agree, creation had no choice.

 

[Nathan]

We seems to disagree but i really enjoy the exchange ...

Most definitely! I am learning new things that I had never seen before. But I have to admit, each time I start down the 'trail' after the rabbit, the trail always leads back to my original thoughts. As in, just when I think that maybe man has no choice to believe in God, it turns out that the passage leads right back to mans choice.

So yes, I am very much enjoying this. Hey, you never know, maybe one of these trails will lead me to an area of the field I have never seen before and it will become clear. This I know, you can't know until you go.(down the trail that is)

 

[reba]

More circles we are creation ...as you said.. He is the potter while according to what you are saying we are not clay.. The potter is throwing a cup and the clay says nope i am a bowl .. wait no He fore knew it to be a cup but not predestined it to be so He let the clay choose ...

This does not matter as it is not a point of salvation IMO

 

[Nathan]

Be careful with this line of reasoning.

Spiritually dead people make choices everyday.

Their soul, mind, will and emotions still fuction.

JLB

Right. I do believe this 100%. I just understand that while they make choices, it is impossible for them to 'choose' God apart from Him drawing them to Him.

Man can't just go down the road thinking "I'll choose God when I am good and ready too".

 

[reba]

God compromised a bowl with a handle like a cup

 

[Nathan]

More circles we are creation ...as you said.. He is the potter while according to what you are saying we are not clay.. The potter is throwing a cup and the clay says nope i am a bowl .. wait no He fore knew it to be a cup but not predestined it to be so He let the clay choose ...

This does not matter as it is not a point of salvation IMO

No, not intrinsically a point of salvation. But it is a matter of faith. I'd rather talk about this than watch a movie.

I don't think we say what we are going to be, or what will happen to us. I fully believe that He creates some pots for filling with 'bad' stuff, and some for filling with 'good' stuff.

If I am a pot that was made to be filled with bad stuff, then why does that mean He cannot give me the choice to believe in Him? What if I am the pot made for good stuff, can He not allow me the choice to believe in Him?

I like to know things like this so when I am talking with others(not online) I can carry on a conversation without the "I'll have to get back to you on that one" statements.

Plus, the one 'fault' and potential pitfall of "traditional" predestination/election doctrine is the idea that God is going to take you into eternal life, no matter what, if you are one of the "ones" predestined and elected. This is dangerous, as I see it, on two points. And doesn't make any sense on a third.

1. It lends to doubt in weak believers who are unsteady in their faith. If they are not 'sure' of their faith because they don't 'feel' like God predestined them, then there is potential to walk away.

2. It lends to those who are predisposed to sinful pride in having them believe that no matter what they do in life, it won't effect the end outcome.

3. It negates the need for all the NT letters to believers. If God has a plan(He does) but we don't have a choice in any of it, then once we believe we are "predestined" there is no need for anything else. We just have to wait till we die.

So that's why I like to talk about it.