Bible Study Predestination and Election in the Bible

[Nathan]

God compromised a bowl with a handle like a cup

That looks like the one my wife made in pottery class.

Rabbit trail here. I'll see if I can find it, but there is a really good video of a guy diving into the things of God using pottery as an example. I think years ago I posted a video of it. Well worth a look.

 

[Jim Parker]

The same reason i don't believe the creation had a choice but to be created... He spoke it.

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

The be able to choose requires that the chooser exist.
Before it was created, creation did not exist.
Since it did not exist, it could not choose.


iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)



DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[Jim Parker]

We were dead. Dead people cannot choose things, much less choose God.

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Jos 24:15 And if you be unwilling to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[Jim Parker]

God compromised a bowl with a handle like a cup

Does God bowl?

 

[JLB]

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

The be able to choose requires that the chooser exist.
Before it was created, creation did not exist.
Since it did not exist, it could not choose.


iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)



DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

Whom he foreknew, He predestined....

 

[reba]

Plus, the one 'fault' and potential pitfall of "traditional" predestination/election doctrine is the idea that God is going to take you into eternal life, no matter what, if you are one of the "ones" predestined and elected. This is dangerous, as I see it, on two points. And doesn't make any sense on a third.

My thoughts are not there... Back to the Chess game most are pawns Mary.. Judas Pharaoh are the big time pieces ..

 

[Nathan]

My thoughts are not there... Back to the Chess game most are pawns Mary.. Judas Pharaoh are the big time pieces ..

Right on. Don't forget Jacob and Esau :wink

 

[reba]

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Jos 24:15 And if you be unwilling to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

iakov the fool

(beaucoup dien cai dau)



You accept this passage of Joshua as written do you do the same for this one ..
Jos 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
Jos 21:44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
Jos 21:45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

 

[Jim Parker]

Whom he foreknew, He predestined....

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Finish the sentence, please.
"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren."

That verse does not say that God predestined anyone "to be saved" (as many attempt to force the verse to say) but, that those He knew would be saved He predestined "to be conformed" to the image of His Son. That is the goal of every believer. That is what the "5-fold" ministry was given to the Church to accomplish.

"...he ... predestined to be conformed ..."

Eph 4:11-13 ...(God's) gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness (pleroma) of Christ;

What is meant by the "fullness of Christ"?
What is Christ's "fullness"?

Col 2:9 For in him the whole fullness (pleroma) of deity dwells bodily,

Sela

iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)



DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[Nathan]

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Jos 24:15 And if you be unwilling to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

Yes, I think we had a error the last go around with this statement I made.

Let me explain again. I did not mean to intend that people are dead 'walkers' who have no choice. I meant the "dead" in a spiritual sense, a hard - dead to things of God - heart.

Romans 10:9 - because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Man does not seek God naturally. Man's heart is incapable of accepting the things of God, much less making a choice to accept Christ, apart from the call of God. Man cannot draw near to God(in an acceptance of faith - belief) until God 'sows' the seed of faith in man's heart.

Then, we can respond to God through belief. So God makes the first move on us.

 

[reba]

you stole my ...

 

[Nathan]

Nope it read as circles yes He predestines but not really ....it really foreknowledge ..then a reason for predestination (election) which can't be predestination if it is foreknowledge

In the chance you missed it...what about Pete? Post #105

added:
You slid ol peter into the post

I completely passed over this post. Maybe it doesn't matter now, but I'd like to reply anyways. In my mind its really not circles, but I understand if it might be seen that way. One of the things about us is we all process information differently. One of the skills I hope to 'hone' over the coming years is my ability to communicate clearly. Side note: I know I can be hard to understand sometimes on here, but I assure you in person it is even worse. My mind starts going a mile a minute, like a tornado......., and I often speak to others in incomplete sentences. Used to drive my coworkers nuts. Still does sometimes, but they give me grace and understand I am working on it.

To me, its clear. When I understand this simple(to me) line of 'logic' laid out in Romans;

Romans 8:29-30
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Foreknowledge ----> Predestination ----> Calling ----> Justification ----> Glorification

The word "also" - kai - conjunction(a word used to connect clauses or sentences or to coordinate words in the same clause) - a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force.

Laymans terms - a word used to indicate the order of things that are connected to each other, by increasing in successive addition. 'One thing leads to another, which leads to another".

Example - 1+1=2, 2+1=3, 3+1=4 etc.

 

[Jim Parker]

My thoughts are not there... Back to the Chess game most are pawns Mary.. Judas Pharaoh are the big time pieces ..

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

People are not God's little puppets.
Everyone is responsible for the choices he makes.
If God is responsible for what we do then God is guilty of our sins and is unjust to punish anyone for what He made them do.

Judas repented, thereby, taking responsibility for his actions. (Mat 27:3)
Pharaoh hardened his heart before God did. Pharaoh's choice; pharaoh's responsibility. (Exo 8:32; Exo 9:12)
Mary consented to God's purpose in her life. (Luk 1:38)

No. We are not just pawns. Although God knows from eternity what we will do, WE choose our path and WE are responsible for the choices we make. If we are not then justice is a farce.

iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)



DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[Jim Parker]

(beaucoup dien cai dau)



You accept this passage of Joshua as written do you do the same for this one ..
Jos 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
Jos 21:44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
Jos 21:45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Yes. But, I don't get your point.


iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)




DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[reba]

That question was a simple one never mind that should be in another thread..

 

[Jim Parker]

I did not mean to intend that people are dead 'walkers' who have no choice. I meant the "dead" in a spiritual sense, a hard - dead to things of God - heart.

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Ah SO des ka!

Man does not seek God naturally. Man's heart is incapable of accepting the things of God, much less making a choice to accept Christ, apart from the call of God. Man cannot draw near to God(in an acceptance of faith - belief) until God 'sows' the seed of faith in man's heart.

Jhn 12:32 “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.”
So, according to Jesus, all of mankind is drawn to Him.

Then, we can respond to God through belief. So God makes the first move on us.

Yup. He already has. Jesus was lifted up.


iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)



DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[Jim Parker]

That question was a simple one never mind that should be in another thread..

To whom is that epistle addressed?

 

[Nathan]

Romans 9:19-24
You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump done vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

I can relate to Paul. He likes to ask questions.

The question asked "who can resist his will" is in regards to the previous statements Paul made, and a pre-statement(question) based on what he is about to give examples of. He started the discourse with a heavy heart about his unbelieving Jewish brothers. Then letting the reader know that God has a plan, and just because they did not receive Christ as the Messiah when He came, it does not mean that God does not have a plan for them anymore.

Then by a series of 'examples', He shows how God's foreknowledge of the events fits directly in with His plan. The plan of election.

Romans 9:11
- in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls -

Romans 9:15-16
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

That "so" is a 'therefore' statement. A conclusion drawn based on the previous statement. God has mercy on who He wants, and doesn't on others, so that it is not based on human will or exertion - so its not a works based mercy.

We have to see that this is all about the election process. The fact that God calls us, we don't call on Him, to save us. We cannot 'will' God to call us is what Paul is saying.

Some pots have a lot of bad stuff happen to them, and some have a lot of good stuff. This pot example, and the other ones before it, is given to parallel the Jew and Gentile calling by God.

The question asked "who can resist His will?" is in relationship to the partial hardening that came on the Jews in order that He would extend His mercy to the Gentiles. But we know this is not a 'terminal' will of God, "predestining" them to eternal damnation, but rather just part of the plan.

God gives, and will give, the Jews a chance to believe. Paul switches over to this aspect in the following passages, momentarily slowing down to make the point that the believing Gentiles should not get too 'boastful' of this position that God worked out for them.

 

[Nathan]

Here is the summation of the previous thoughts and questions(used to make the reader turn on their thinking cap).

Romans 9:30-33; Romans 10:1-4
What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, as it is written,

“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;

and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”

Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Gentiles 'attain' Gods righteousness(mercy) because of faith. That faith was only made possible because God partially hardened the Jews heart - again, not fully to make them unable to believe.

God foreknew they would harden their hearts, and not submit to His righteousness, so He used that in His plan for the Gentiles.

God wanted them to submit. Don't think He did not. But they would not. However, if they don't continue in this unbelief, and do submit to God, then He will restore them to their place He has made.

We know that the pots 'fitted' for destruction are those not of the faith. In the OT they would be known as Gentiles. But God decided(predestined) them to receive mercy even while they are predisposed to wickedness. The other pots, which God made to carry on the lineage of the Messiah and all the laws and commandments, were predisposed to righteousness.

All those years(and even still now) God has patience on the Gentiles(and unbelieving Jews). In order that He can show His power through ones He who were made for righteousness - not only Jews but also Gentiles.

Romans 9:25-26
“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’

and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”

“And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’

there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

Isn't God's plan wonderful? How merciful for God to tolerate bad pots, and to fill them with good things, if they come to Him through faith in belief.

2 Timothy 2:21 - Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work.

I am not sure if anyone has heard or read what all this "dishonorable" and "honorable" pot thing is all about. But the terminology used is that in those days a dishonorable pot was used as a 'waste' pot, a 'chamber' pot. And the other pot was used for water, oil, and food.

I am not sure I would, but it shows the powerful working of God, to take a pot that used to be used for waste and cleanse it good enough to be used for food. Only God can do that. We have no power in ourselves to do that.

 

[JLB]

My thoughts are not there... Back to the Chess game most are pawns Mary.. Judas Pharaoh are the big time pieces ..

How about Jesus?

Does He fit in to your chess game?