Preterism & Biblical Prophecy

[Lehigh3]

no.

i am stating that we once saved are subjects to the father and his kids by adoption. as whereby we cry abba father. we are ambassadors for christ. do ambassador stay in there own country or do they go to other lands to represent the king they serve(or pm or president). that is what i am saying. we are here to reconcile men to God before its too late.

Ok. So, some of us were meant to be evangelists. But I asked about this quote of yours:

Originally Posted by jasoncran duh, the kingdom in nigh even at the door. that is the spiriitual side, the physical is yet to come where there wont be any enemy to be dealt with.

Isn't the "enemy" the devil or "evil" in this world? And by "physical" what do you mean exactly? Seems like you described our spiritual status while on earth (in the kingdom James said was near 2,000yrs. ago) then you say the "physical" is yet to come. Physical meaning -the salvation of your soul in heaven, no?
Won't we be a little more than ethereal spirits in heaven? If "manna" was called "angels food" then we will have physicality & substance also.
This is what I thought you meant by "the physical is yet to come"

 

[jasoncran]

Ok. So, some of us were meant to be evangelists. But I asked about this quote of yours:
Isn't the "enemy" the devil or "evil" in this world? And by "physical" what do you mean exactly? Seems like you described our spiritual status while on earth (in the kingdom James said was near 2,000yrs. ago) then you say the "physical" is yet to come. Physical meaning -the salvation of your soul in heaven, no?
Won't we be a little more than ethereal spirits in heaven? If "manna" was called "angels food" then we will have physicality & substance also.
This is what I thought you meant by "the physical is yet to come"

satan is defeated as per this verse but he is still roaming the earth. why did peter say be sober and be viiligant for YOUR advisery the DEVIl is a roaring LION seeking whom he may DEVOUR. and with pauls statement give no place to the devil.

 

[Lehigh3]

satan is defeated as per this verse but he is still roaming the earth. why did peter say be sober and be viiligant for YOUR advisery the DEVIl is a roaring LION seeking whom he may DEVOUR. and with pauls statement give no place to the devil.

I think maybe looking at Who defeated Satan AND for who & when He crushed Satan's head is in order here.
Didn't we already discuss that it's possible that there is just "evil" in this present world & not necessarily "evil spirits" inhabiting & controlling people anymore?

Didn't we already say that it's possible that Satan's "influence" remains even though he was destroyed for us?

Aren't ppl capable of evil & sin today still? But Peter & Paul were both referring to that evil age that would come to an end in AD70.

Remember we spoke about the evil one before the thread was closed bc of spiritual warfare from someone on the outside?

This article explains why Satan is not incarnate or a literal evil spirit today:
The Binding of Satan | eschatology.org

 

[jasoncran]

I think maybe looking at Who defeated Satan AND for who & when He crushed Satan's head is in order here.
Didn't we already discuss that it's possible that there is just "evil" in this present world & not necessarily "evil spirits" inhabiting & controlling people anymore?

Didn't we already say that it's possible that Satan's "influence" remains even though he was destroyed for us?

Aren't ppl capable of evil & sin today still? But Peter & Paul were both referring to that evil age that would come to an end in AD70.

Remember we spoke about the evil one before the thread was closed bc of spiritual warfare from someone on the outside?

This article explains why Satan is not incarnate or a literal evil spirit today:
The Binding of Satan | eschatology.org

ever see a spirit and do the occult, astral project and ouija and see spirits or hear them i have.
satan is alive if so then can you explain to me the idea that i have never read any occultic book ,yet just meditated and ponder ki, would almost word for word match the ideas found in eastern thought.

satan wasnt defeated like that in ad 70, he wasnt cast into the abyss after the crucifixation as paul had a woman possesed following him telling the city what they were here for.

also you would think the ecfs would have noted that in their journals and diaries. the jews wouldnt be blind as they could believe, men dont just blind themselves, there a spirit that actively tries to kill the word being preached.

satan plants seed we act on that. you dont go to church if i recall. when you did did you ever noticed that you could listent to secular stuff all day every day yet can stand the word too long. you have to discipline your self to pray and hear the word.

satan is behind that.

 

[Lehigh3]

ever see a spirit and do the occult, astral project and ouija and see spirits or hear them i have.
satan is alive if so then can you explain to me the idea that i have never read any occultic book ,yet just meditated and ponder ki, would almost word for word match the ideas found in eastern thought.

satan wasnt defeated like that in ad 70, he wasnt cast into the abyss after the crucifixation as paul had a woman possesed following him telling the city what they were here for.

also you would think the ecfs would have noted that in their journals and diaries. the jews wouldnt be blind as they could believe, men dont just blind themselves, there a spirit that actively tries to kill the word being preached.

satan plants seed we act on that. you dont go to church if i recall. when you did did you ever noticed that you could listent to secular stuff all day every day yet can stand the word too long. you have to discipline your self to pray and hear the word.

satan is behind that.

Jason, everyone is involved with the secular world. But we are "not of this world" in another sense, not in the reality sense.
We get spiritual warfare when we hang around & are unequally yoked with unbelievers. Have you ever had the Holy Spirit come to your spiritual rescue?
It's bc of spiritual warfare. And one should learn to avoid warfare.

I think engaging in the occult, knowing what you know as a Christian- is a dangerous game. One is giving power to the dark side & God may in turn grant your request. That's serious.

We give the devil & evil power when we believe in it.

The Bible says we are to be innocent when it comes to evil. Not sure of the exact verse. But it's a peaceful one.

Have a good night

 

[jasoncran]

Jason, everyone is involved with the secular world. But we are "not of this world" in another sense, not in the reality sense.
We get spiritual warfare when we hang around & are unequally yoked with unbelievers. Have you ever had the Holy Spirit come to your spiritual rescue?
It's bc of spiritual warfare. And one should learn to avoid warfare.

I think engaging in the occult, knowing what you know as a Christian- is a dangerous game. One is giving power to the dark side & God may in turn grant your request. That's serious.

We give the devil & evil power when we believe in it.

The Bible says we are to be innocent when it comes to evil. Not sure of the exact verse. But it's a peaceful one.

Have a good night

lol you said give the devil, isnt the devil gone? THATS MY POINT. HE AINT.

UH WE dont have to give him any fight, when we do the lords the enemy will come to attack.

believing in the devil gives him power? really? man thats silly, so reading up on what sin is means that i giving it authority. so i shouldnt put on the whole armor of god and learn and avoid what my tendency to sin in is so that i can avoid it! or that satan does lie and what his lies are.

the bible tells you what they are and we should know the wiles of the devil, we arent to overglorify him but we shouldnt just say oh dont worry he is so easily pushed over. he isnt. it takes prayer to overcome him and fasting and sometimes many a man together in prayer.

 

[Vic C.]

The subject is the source in the OP. Please relate to info in the OP source.

Please people, stop hijacking topics just to have two way conversations! Other members are complaining about. 2

 

[theLords]

The subject is the source in the OP. Please relate to info in the OP source.

Please people, stop hijacking topics just to have two way conversations! Other members are complaining about. 2

Back to topic

 

[Drew]

From the OP:

But Jesus speaks at least as clearly to the fact that there will be a "delay" before His coming, a delay of some duration. He spoke the parable in Luke 19:11-27 to explain this very thing. Luke gives us this interpretive clue when he says, "He spoke another parable because He was near Jerusalem and because they thought the Kingdom of God would appear immediately" (v.11). Jesus went on to speak not in terms of a short time but of a long journey to a "far country" for the purpose of "receiving His Kingdom" and to return to exercise the attending rights of it

I believe that the OP is mistaken here, if there is indeed the assertion that the Luke 19 parable refers to a second coming that has yet to occur. Here is a detailed argument:

Much of the gospel of Luke is the story of Jesus’ journey to Jerusalem. Towards the end of that journey, Jesus tells the parable of the returning king – the story of a king who goes away and then returns to call his servants to account. This parable is found in Luke 19:11 and following.

This parable has almost universally been understood to constitute a statement by Jesus that He will go away, though crucifixion, resurrection, and then ascension, only to return in the future (i.e. in the 2nd coming). On such a reading, Jesus sets Himself, as He tells the parable, in the role of the king who is about to leave.

I suggest this is not the correct reading. Instead, we should understand that in telling the parable, Jesus is setting Himself in the role of the returning king, not the departing one. On such a reading, the departing king represents YHWH leaving his people by abandoning the temple and sending the Jews into exile, something that lies in the past of Jesus’ audience. If this interpretation is correct, Jesus can logically fill only one role in the parable: YHWH returning to Zion as promised. And this means, of course, that Jesus is the embodiment of Israel’s God.

Why should we read the parable this way? Well, for starters, the parable does not really work on its traditional reading. Note what happens to the third servant – all that he has is taken from him. This really cannot be reconciled with the notion that the returning King is Jesus at his 2nd coming, calling his people to account. Nowhere in the New Testament is there even the slightest suggestion that any of Jesus’ followers will be cast out and lose all at Jesus’ 2nd coming as the parable would seem to suggest on the traditional reading. It is clear from the scriptures that that believers who “build with hay and stubble” will still be saved. So it is very hard to make the parable work with Jesus as the King about to go away and return at a 2nd coming.

Besides, consideration of what happens next makes it clear that Jesus is setting himself in the role of the returning king. Note what happens after parable is told – Jesus rides on to Jerusalem and, upon seeing it, says the following:

"If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes. 43"For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side, 44and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation."

Clearly, Jesus sees Himself as the King returning in visitation, returning to judge Jerusalem who is set in the role of the unfaithful 3rd servant. If, as many believe, the returning King in the parable is Jesus at His second coming, then it would be deeply misleading for Jesus to give the parable then immediately ride into Jerusalem as He does, to palm branches waving no less, with all the imagery of a returning King that this action clearly evokes. No. Jesus clearly intends his listeners to understand that He is the returning King, not the departing one. In giving this parable and then riding into the royal city as a king, Jesus is clearly telling us that He, through this teaching and these actions, is embodying the fulfillment of the hoped for return of YHWH to his people. And what does Jesus do next?:

Then he entered the temple area and began driving out those who were selling. 46"It is written," he said to them, " 'My house will be a house of prayer'; but you have made it 'a den of robbers.'

Note how this maps perfectly to this prophecy about the return of YHWH to his people:

Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming," says the LORD of hosts. 2"But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap.

The overall picture is clear. We have the strong Biblical tradition of the promised return of YHWH to Zion (and his temple) after the time of the exile. Now here, in Luke, we have the journey of a young Jew named Jesus to Jerusalem. As He is about to enter, He tells a parable of a king who goes away and then returns. Next, He laments over Jerusalem and declares that she is not recognizing His mission as a “visitation”. In the context of Jews who saw themselves still in exile, and still awaiting the return of YHWH, Jesus’ intended meaning is clear. In saying that Jerusalem has not recognized her visitation, He is saying that she has failed to recognize that, in His very actions, the promised return of YHWH to Zion is being fulfilled. And then Jesus enters the temple and overturns the tables in judgement, fulfilling the Malachi 3 promise that YHWH will come suddenly to the temple in judgement. The coherence of this picture is compelling. Jesus is embodying the return of YHWH to Zion.

The fact that Luke 19:11 tells us that the disciples expected the kingdom to come immediately does not necessarily mean that what Jesus goes on to say is a repudiation of the immediacy of such an inauguration of the kingdom. As I believe the above argument shows, the kingdom's inauguration was indeed immediate.

Of course, there were other ways in which the inauguration of the kingdom was "unexpected". But that's another story.

 

[Lehigh3]

lol you said give the devil, isnt the devil gone? THATS MY POINT. HE AINT.

UH WE dont have to give him any fight, when we do the lords the enemy will come to attack.

believing in the devil gives him power? really? man thats silly, so reading up on what sin is means that i giving it authority. so i shouldnt put on the whole armor of god and learn and avoid what my tendency to sin in is so that i can avoid it! or that satan does lie and what his lies are.

the bible tells you what they are and we should know the wiles of the devil, we arent to overglorify him but we shouldnt just say oh dont worry he is so easily pushed over. he isnt. it takes prayer to overcome him and fasting and sometimes many a man together in prayer.

Yes, & this thread is about Preterism & Biblical prophecy- so the devil being sent to the Lake of Fire in AD70 is relevant even more so!

And you say "we aren't to overglorify him" Are you kidding me?! There is no making "ugly" beautiful. There is no making darkness light- literally. Satan was our enemy. He represents all things evil & negative.

Did Jesus give us the power over snakes & scorpions? Or was it just to the 1st century Apostles Christians (that seem to be denied being the first resurrected by futurists also) Because you need to have some consistency & discernment on what is Christian doctrine & what is Prophecy!

Yes, God can dig up the devil if you ask Him to. That's exactly why we shouldn't engage in the occult or horrorscope. Those things are NOT to be worshiped above God. That's what one learns in church, friend, or at least SHOULD be learning! Witchcraft is evil. If one engages in witchcraft he's giving the devil or better recognized in reality as temptation & sin - a foothold. This foothold is the result of chronic works of the flesh , against God's good guidance. And purposely doing it - is evil. Not bc we "sin" but bc our consciences should convict us from doing such things repeatedly- as the heathen do. Then it may be more than sin,- it may be "evil." And once saved, we are to do "good works" never evil.
It's like causing strife in one's household & inviting hatred & the results of that negativity in to one's household.

We need to look out for our own salvation. That is really all we can really control.

Peace

 

[Drew]

Another quote from the OP:

Similarly, talk of great cosmic disturbances involving the sun, moon, and stars would appear relatively meaningless and / or misleading if limited to the events of Jerusalem.

This, I suggest, is not a correct assertion. This "end-of-the-world" language is not to be taken literally - this is quite clear from Biblical precedent as I will argue presently. So the fact that actual cosmic disturbances have not occurred yet is not an argument against such language being used to describe events in AD 70. And the reason is precisely because any Biblically literate person of the first century, or of any century, should know that such language is not intended to refer to actual disruptions in the cosmos. Instead, and in harmony with how such language is clearly used in Old Testament, such language could be used to convey, via metaphor, the theological significance of the destruction of Jerusalem.

Here is the argument (please excuse the length):

I believe that Christians err when they read Biblical texts containing end of the world language – stars falling, the moon turning red, earthquakes, splitting mountains, etc. – and take such language literally. One common manifestation of this involves interpreting prophetic texts that use such language as having “end of the time” events as their referent - when it is believed that there will indeed be such cataclysmic events. Such readers rule out the possibility that these prophecies have already been fulfilled by basically arguing “That could not have happened in the past, since the stars did not full or the moon did not turn red”.

This entire position rests on a radical misunderstanding of how these texts are used in the Biblical tradition. We know for a fact that such language is not intended to be taken literally – it is a literary device used by the prophet to emphasize the theological significance of events that do not involve the end of the world but rather changes in the socio-political order, the rise and fall of specific nations and empires. There are many examples of this. Consider this from Isaiah 13:

10For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light

What was going on? Babylon was being destroyed, never to be rebuilt – check the context and consider the historical record. The world was not coming to an end and we are not take this text literally.
Here is another example from Isaiah concerning the fate of the nation of the Edomites:

And all the host of heaven will wear away,
And the sky will be rolled up like a scroll;
All their hosts will also wither away
As a leaf withers from the vine,
Or as one withers from the fig tree.
5For (K)My sword is satiated in heaven,
Behold it shall descend for judgment upon Edom

Has this prophecy already been fulfilled? Was Edom defeated? The historical record indicates that it indeed has. Did the sky roll up? Did the stars (the “host of the sky”) stop shining (wither away)? No, in both cases. But it doesn’t matter anyway. The point is that judgement specific to a nation is described in these globally apocalyptic terms. If the end of the world languages is taken literally, then it is not only Edom that is being judged, but the entire world. And yet it is otherwise clear that this is material specific to Edom. Consequently, we must see the end of the world language as being metaphorical.

Here is another example from yet a different prophet – Ezekiel:

2"Son of man, take up a lamentation over Pharaoh king of Egypt and say to him,
'You compared yourself to a young lion of the nations,
Yet you are like the monster in the seas;
And you burst forth in your rivers
And muddied the waters with your feet
And fouled their rivers.'"
3Thus says the Lord GOD,
"Now I will spread My net over you
With a company of many peoples,
And they shall lift you up in My net.
4"I will leave you on the land;
I will cast you on the open field.
And I will cause all the birds of the heavens to dwell on you,
And I will satisfy the beasts of the whole earth with you.
5"I will lay your flesh on the mountains
And fill the valleys with your refuse.
6"I will also make the land drink the discharge of your (I)blood
As far as the mountains,
And the ravines will be full of you.
7"And when I extinguish you,
I will cover the heavens and darken their stars;
I will cover the sun with a cloud
And the moon will not give its light.
8"All the shining lights in the heavens
I will darken over you
And will set darkness on your land,"
Declares the Lord GOD.

Again, the material in verses 7 and 8, if not earlier verses, is not to be taken literally. If it were, judgement specific to Pharoah would be carried out against the entire world – you cannot cover the sun and darken the stars for Egypt only.

Jesus was born into this tradition, he was steeped in this tradition. No first century Jew (who knew his Old Testament) would take such language literally as denoting literal end of the world events. He would have interpreted such language in accordance with Biblical precedent – as a literary device to ascribe theological significance to non end of the world events.

Isaiah uses end of the world language. What is his real intent? To describe judgement against Babylon and Edom, not worldwide “end of the world” judgement.

Ezekiel uses end of the world language. What is his real intent. To describe judgement against Egypt, not worldwide “end of the world” judgement.

And, of course, it should be no mystery what the real referent of Jesus’ judgement is in Mark 13 and Matthew 24. It is not about the end of the world. It is about coming judgement against, of course, a specific nation (following in the nation-specific use of such language by the prophets). Which nation? Israel. Those to whom He was speaking saw that judgement in 70 AD – within one generation, just as Jesus has said.

 

[Elijah674]

Yes, & this thread is about Preterism & Biblical prophecy- so the devil being sent to the Lake of Fire in AD70 is relevant even more so!

And you say "we aren't to overglorify him" Are you kidding me?! There is no making "ugly" beautiful. There is no making darkness light- literally. Satan was our enemy. He represents all things evil & negative.

Did Jesus give us the power over snakes & scorpions? Or was it just to the 1st century Apostles Christians (that seem to be denied being the first resurrected by futurists also) Because you need to have some consistency & discernment on what is Christian doctrine & what is Prophecy!

Yes, God can dig up the devil if you ask Him to. That's exactly why we shouldn't engage in the occult or horrorscope. Those things are NOT to be worshiped above God. That's what one learns in church, friend, or at least SHOULD be learning! Witchcraft is evil. If one engages in witchcraft he's giving the devil or better recognized in reality as temptation & sin - a foothold. This foothold is the result of chronic works of the flesh , against God's good guidance. And purposely doing it - is evil. Not bc we "sin" but bc our consciences should convict us from doing such things repeatedly- as the heathen do. Then it may be more than sin,- it may be "evil." And once saved, we are to do "good works" never evil.
It's like causing strife in one's household & inviting hatred & the results of that negativity in to one's household.

We need to look out for our own salvation. That is really all we can really control.

Peace

Rhetorical?
I see the TV commercials come up all the time here in S.C. and one that tel's of the S.C. Education Lottery. And it just seems imposible how the Bible Belt ones could be sold this bill of goods??? But, yes I know that after Matt. 24's 'the sign of thy coming and the end of the world' we 'see' verse 21-26. And this time surely will be something ealse to cause 'Deception' to 'deceive the very ellect if it were possible!

--Elijah

 

[jasoncran]

Yes, & this thread is about Preterism & Biblical prophecy- so the devil being sent to the Lake of Fire in AD70 is relevant even more so!

And you say "we aren't to overglorify him" Are you kidding me?! There is no making "ugly" beautiful. There is no making darkness light- literally. Satan was our enemy. He represents all things evil & negative.

Did Jesus give us the power over snakes & scorpions? Or was it just to the 1st century Apostles Christians (that seem to be denied being the first resurrected by futurists also) Because you need to have some consistency & discernment on what is Christian doctrine & what is Prophecy!

Yes, God can dig up the devil if you ask Him to. That's exactly why we shouldn't engage in the occult or horrorscope. Those things are NOT to be worshiped above God. That's what one learns in church, friend, or at least SHOULD be learning! Witchcraft is evil. If one engages in witchcraft he's giving the devil or better recognized in reality as temptation & sin - a foothold. This foothold is the result of chronic works of the flesh , against God's good guidance. And purposely doing it - is evil. Not bc we "sin" but bc our consciences should convict us from doing such things repeatedly- as the heathen do. Then it may be more than sin,- it may be "evil." And once saved, we are to do "good works" never evil.
It's like causing strife in one's household & inviting hatred & the results of that negativity in to one's household.

We need to look out for our own salvation. That is really all we can really control.

Peace

tell me why then was and is porn, homosexuality and all manner of sin if its just mere habits after we can quit smoking, porn and even deny homosexuality if we so choose without God if that was the case.

yet.. some force seems to tempt us on these things. i never said we didnt have the victory but to deny the facts that the devil around and doing his evil is like saying hitler wasnt real.

satan tempts man all the time. i didnt make what did on the occult on my own. its odd the more i got into the better i got and also would meet others that were into the way of things as i drew them or was lead to them..

yes satan is defeated, but oddly i can talk on this forum all day, yet at times it becomes God to me. go figure.

 

[jasoncran]

Another quote from the OP:


This, I suggest, is not a correct assertion. This "end-of-the-world" language is not to be taken literally - this is quite clear from Biblical precedent as I will argue presently. So the fact that actual cosmic disturbances have not occurred yet is not an argument against such language being used to describe events in AD 70. And the reason is precisely because any Biblically literate person of the first century, or of any century, should know that such language is not intended to refer to actual disruptions in the cosmos. Instead, and in harmony with how such language is clearly used in Old Testament, such language could be used to convey, via metaphor, the theological significance of the destruction of Jerusalem.

Here is the argument (please excuse the length):

I believe that Christians err when they read Biblical texts containing end of the world language – stars falling, the moon turning red, earthquakes, splitting mountains, etc. – and take such language literally. One common manifestation of this involves interpreting prophetic texts that use such language as having “end of the time†events as their referent - when it is believed that there will indeed be such cataclysmic events. Such readers rule out the possibility that these prophecies have already been fulfilled by basically arguing “That could not have happened in the past, since the stars did not full or the moon did not turn redâ€.

This entire position rests on a radical misunderstanding of how these texts are used in the Biblical tradition. We know for a fact that such language is not intended to be taken literally – it is a literary device used by the prophet to emphasize the theological significance of events that do not involve the end of the world but rather changes in the socio-political order, the rise and fall of specific nations and empires. There are many examples of this. Consider this from Isaiah 13:

10For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light

What was going on? Babylon was being destroyed, never to be rebuilt – check the context and consider the historical record. The world was not coming to an end and we are not take this text literally.
Here is another example from Isaiah concerning the fate of the nation of the Edomites:

And all the host of heaven will wear away,
And the sky will be rolled up like a scroll;
All their hosts will also wither away
As a leaf withers from the vine,
Or as one withers from the fig tree.
5For (K)My sword is satiated in heaven,
Behold it shall descend for judgment upon Edom

Has this prophecy already been fulfilled? Was Edom defeated? The historical record indicates that it indeed has. Did the sky roll up? Did the stars (the “host of the skyâ€) stop shining (wither away)? No, in both cases. But it doesn’t matter anyway. The point is that judgement specific to a nation is described in these globally apocalyptic terms. If the end of the world languages is taken literally, then it is not only Edom that is being judged, but the entire world. And yet it is otherwise clear that this is material specific to Edom. Consequently, we must see the end of the world language as being metaphorical.

Here is another example from yet a different prophet – Ezekiel:

2"Son of man, take up a lamentation over Pharaoh king of Egypt and say to him,
'You compared yourself to a young lion of the nations,
Yet you are like the monster in the seas;
And you burst forth in your rivers
And muddied the waters with your feet
And fouled their rivers.'"
3Thus says the Lord GOD,
"Now I will spread My net over you
With a company of many peoples,
And they shall lift you up in My net.
4"I will leave you on the land;
I will cast you on the open field.
And I will cause all the birds of the heavens to dwell on you,
And I will satisfy the beasts of the whole earth with you.
5"I will lay your flesh on the mountains
And fill the valleys with your refuse.
6"I will also make the land drink the discharge of your (I)blood
As far as the mountains,
And the ravines will be full of you.
7"And when I extinguish you,
I will cover the heavens and darken their stars;
I will cover the sun with a cloud
And the moon will not give its light.
8"All the shining lights in the heavens
I will darken over you
And will set darkness on your land,"
Declares the Lord GOD.

Again, the material in verses 7 and 8, if not earlier verses, is not to be taken literally. If it were, judgement specific to Pharoah would be carried out against the entire world – you cannot cover the sun and darken the stars for Egypt only.

Jesus was born into this tradition, he was steeped in this tradition. No first century Jew (who knew his Old Testament) would take such language literally as denoting literal end of the world events. He would have interpreted such language in accordance with Biblical precedent – as a literary device to ascribe theological significance to non end of the world events.

Isaiah uses end of the world language. What is his real intent? To describe judgement against Babylon and Edom, not worldwide “end of the world†judgement.

Ezekiel uses end of the world language. What is his real intent. To describe judgement against Egypt, not worldwide “end of the world†judgement.

And, of course, it should be no mystery what the real referent of Jesus’ judgement is in Mark 13 and Matthew 24. It is not about the end of the world. It is about coming judgement against, of course, a specific nation (following in the nation-specific use of such language by the prophets). Which nation? Israel. Those to whom He was speaking saw that judgement in 70 AD – within one generation, just as Jesus has said.

ok so the man noah was a figure and the flood never happened ? right and that peter alluded to a figure of speech when recalled the flood and how the world of old was destroyed and that God was going to burn the elements up in same context.


God isnt going to just say high when he returns and shake our hands and let the sinner be when he arrives. the earth will have some changes , as its clearly stated by peter in his 2 epistle.

 

[Lehigh3]

tell me why then was and is porn, homosexuality and all manner of sin if its just mere habits after we can quit smoking, porn and even deny homosexuality if we so choose without God if that was the case.

I don't understand your question or thinking. Sin is still around. The lusts of the flesh didn't end. But salvation in this life is reserved for those who believe Christ died for their sins & do His commands. And smoking isn't a sin as the lust of pornography & homosexuality are. It's just a bad habit that wrecks one's health, like overeating. I see nothing in the Bible that says what goes in is what defies a man. Only with lustful habits like porn do we commit adultery & sexual sin with our eyes, etc.

yet.. some force seems to tempt us on these things. i never said we didnt have the victory but to deny the facts that the devil around and doing his evil is like saying hitler wasnt real.

No. Nature (like the natural man Adam) makes us or entices us to sin. We are pathetically, in the natural state- sinful. And that's not an analogy. Hitler WAS a devil. The devil represents what is evil. And there are too many around. Especially on halloween!
James 1:13-17 NKVJ,
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by Godâ€; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

satan tempts man all the time. i didnt make what did on the occult on my own. its odd the more i got into the better i got and also would meet others that were into the way of things as i drew them or was lead to them..

Same as above. God created "evil" - hence- the tree of the knowledge of good & evil. & God doesn't tempt anyone. He wants everyone to come into repentance - so sending demons or evil, when He came to destroy the devil's works- would contradict His love for us.

yes satan is defeated, but oddly i can talk on this forum all day, yet at times it becomes God to me. go figure.

Maybe bc you WERE influenced at one time by him, But now you have been forgiven. Christ went around healing ppl & telling them to what? "Go and sin no more."

Romans 12:1-2 NKJV,
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

 

[jasoncran]

I don't understand your question or thinking. Sin is still around. The lusts of the flesh didn't end. But salvation in this life is reserved for those who believe Christ died for their sins & do His commands. And smoking isn't a sin as the lust of pornography & homosexuality are. It's just a bad habit that wrecks one's health, like overeating. I see nothing in the Bible that says what goes in is what defies a man. Only with lustful habits like porn do we commit adultery & sexual sin with our eyes, etc.
No. Nature (like the natural man Adam) makes us or entices us to sin. We are pathetically, in the natural state- sinful. And that's not an analogy. Hitler WAS a devil. The devil represents what is evil. And there are too many around. Especially on halloween!
James 1:13-17 NKVJ,
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by Godâ€; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.
Same as above. God created "evil" - hence- the tree of the knowledge of good & evil. & God doesn't tempt anyone. He wants everyone to come into repentance - so sending demons or evil, when He came to destroy the devil's works- would contradict His love for us.
Maybe bc you WERE influenced at one time by him, But now you have been forgiven. Christ went around healing ppl & telling them to what? "Go and sin no more."

Romans 12:1-2 NKJV,
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

can you tell me when that which is perfect is come and why wouldnt need the gift of the spirits why jesus said in the parable of the seed and sower (which btw is a description of mens hearts when they recieve the word) what that means now as satan is dead?

surely God would have said that and why is there still sorrow? death.

where do we go when we die?

and in light of this all

the meek shall inherent the earth. man was meant for the earth not hell, not heaven. what did paul mean when we die ,we are raised in incorruption? why would paul and jesus and the verse be stated with this warning if its only to ad 70? pray therefore that the lord establish your hearts at his coming.. and also the old world is passing way and all things in it. that isnt and cant be a reference to isreal alone.rome wasnt destroyed in ad70. not even touched. they acted on God's behalf!

 

[Lehigh3]

by jason,

God isnt going to just say high when he returns and shake our hands and let the sinner be when he arrives. the earth will have some changes , as its clearly stated by peter in his 2 epistle.

As far as the timing of the fulfillment of Peter's prophecies- he said it was time (then -2,000 yrs. ago) for the judgment to begin at the house of God. AND he didn't know where the "sinner" would appear. Now God already & for the last time (once more) shook the heavens & the earth & removed those things which defile. So, the kingdom of God is where righteousness dwells. The earth had it's changes & they were covenantal.
And God judges those on the outside. So, we do not know if when they die & their spirit returns to God- exactly WHAT God has in store for them. Whereas, we are made more sure by the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of life beyond death of our bodies.

 

[jasoncran]

by jason,

As far as the timing of the fulfillment of Peter's prophecies- he said it was time (then -2,000 yrs. ago) for the judgment to begin at the house of God. AND he didn't know where the "sinner" would appear. Now God already & for the last time (once more) shook the heavens & the earth & removed those things which defile. So, the kingdom of God is where righteousness dwells. The earth had it's changes & they were covenantal.
And God judges those on the outside. So, we do not know if when they die & their spirit returns to God- exactly WHAT God has in store for them. Whereas, we are made more sure by the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of life beyond death of our bodies.

in this epistle? he openly stating what is going to happen? so you dont believe in any past earth destructive judgments ie global flood? or sodoma and gommorah. i

you cant just say its all spiritual and assume that jesus isnt going to make his presence KNOWN. he aint coming back quietly at all.

2 peter 3.
1This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

2That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 18But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.







he is stating that he is coming as he said he would!

 

[Lehigh3]

can you tell me when that which is perfect is come and why wouldnt need the gift of the spirits why jesus said in the parable of the seed and sower (which btw is a description of mens hearts when they recieve the word) what that means now as satan is dead?

surely God would have said that and why is there still sorrow? death.

where do we go when we die?

and in light of this all

the meek shall inherent the earth. man was meant for the earth not hell, not heaven. what did paul mean when we die ,we are raised in incorruption? why would paul and jesus and the verse be stated with this warning if its only to ad 70? pray therefore that the lord establish your hearts at his coming.. and also the old world is passing way and all things in it. that isnt and cant be a reference to isreal alone.rome wasnt destroyed in ad70. not even touched. they acted on God's behalf!

Jesus was speaking to Old Covenant Israel (not gentiles) in the parable you cite. (actually all the parables refer to Israel)
1/3 received the Word, but as a whole Israel rejected her Messiah. Satan was active in that period. He WAS bound for those to receive the gospel.

We are raised incorruptible when we die physically. The old world was the old covenant - as in Hebrews.No one said Rome was destroyed by AD70. But the "beast" or corporate Rome was. The beast turned on the harlot when she rebelled. This is poetic history!

The sorrow & death is directed to Israel's faithful in Rev.21. The New Jerusalem is like Psalm 1. Eternal life had come. God fulfilled his promises to Israel.

 

[jasoncran]

ok, well if i was jew at the time who heard that and had the tanakh in hand to turn i would refer to this incident that predates isreal by oh say several thousands yrs.

this verse in the tanakh taught to me by the local rabbi and once i converted peter here also read this to me an explained the correlation of the statment by yeshua that says as in the days of noah so shall it be when the son of man cometh.

genesis 6.

5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.


now then peter here directly states in like manner God again will judge man and the whole earth but this time with fire. is that so hard to grasp that if God deluged the earth so that only 8 lived he will again. peter says what is happening now. we have the scoffers, thost that say he aint a comin and also those that deny the flood willfully( i can if you wish show what geologist admit on that idea of the earth at one time in all areas, though they say not all at once, the earth is under water.)

the flood wasnt local to the levant as if a mountian such as say nebo in the sinai pennisula(800mt approx 2400ft) is totally covered how much of the earth would also be and even higher mountains were covered in that region.

so if peter was telling us that why was the flood in your beliefs a spirutal thing?