Proof of Trinity

[brother Paul]

He is the fullness of the Godhead bodily...Colossians 2:9

 

[Eugene]

Hey people, all I did was ask a simple question.
Now 46 pages and 916 responses later, can't anyone answer it?

I thought Knotical answered that satisfactorily in Post #2.
http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/proof-of-trinity.51592/#post-878101

And what good is the doctrine of the trinity if the Bible cannot prove it?

The evidence of the trinity is in scripture. By faith I accept it.

 

[Brother Mike]

Firstly, you should cut the condescension. Secondly, your argument is a straw man. You should be addressing what Trinitarians actually believe.

You just go straight to the same folks that pray to Mary to get what they believe. Rome has all the answers.

Anthasian Creed 1600's about.
13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.

Trinity has to acknowledge there are 3, but being Catholic you can only say there is 1.

You can read the confusion in this, and it's just a small part of it. To be compelled by the "Christian" verity (Knowing that it's factual and true scriptures mentions 3 distinct beings over and over and over)
That we are going to conclude, despite their Christian VERITY of having to say there are 3, they are going to conclude there is just 1 out of some mystery of math.

So yes Free, we have the full original Modern Catholic Doctrine translated from Latin for us, can clearly read what Trinitarians believe. We understand that Catholic religion forbids them to say there is 1, despite acknowledging the truth that there are actually 3.

Mike.

 

[Brother Mike]

I thought Knotical answered that satisfactorily in Post #2.
http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/proof-of-trinity.51592/#post-878101

The evidence of the trinity is in scripture. By faith I accept it.

What document or text, or proof that those who made the Trinity Doctrine actually used scriptures? Would you post that document please. You say it's in scripture, but the ones that made have no evidience that I see or have been able to find that state any scriptures were considered in making the doctrine, no scriptures where used or any scripture given that was considered.

How's it possible you say it's in scripture, when those that made the doctrine did not even consider or give scripture. Hows that work?

Just post the document that proves scriptures where considered, because I have hunted, asked, and nobody has yet to give me any evidence of it. I am sure you have it, and would like to look it over.

Thank you Eugene, if you say it's in scripture, then I know you would not lie, and have that evidence for me. You can use the formation of the Anthasian Creed, as I know the 325ad original would be extremely hard to find extra writings on that.

Blessings.

Mike.

 

[eddif]

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I like this verse .

I can explain it in trinity speak, or I can explain it in other modes.

Repent
Believe in Jesus work
Receive power to witness

If this was the only plan of salvation, I do not see how we could do anything but love each other. Take away our favorite words, and we are on the same page / program. We all are the same.

eddif

 

[dianegcook]

What document or text, or proof that those who made the Trinity Doctrine actually used scriptures? Would you post that document please. You say it's in scripture, but the ones that made have no evidience that I see or have been able to find that state any scriptures were considered in making the doctrine, no scriptures where used or any scripture given that was considered.

How's it possible you say it's in scripture, when those that made the doctrine did not even consider or give scripture. Hows that work?

Just post the document that proves scriptures where considered, because I have hunted, asked, and nobody has yet to give me any evidence of it. I am sure you have it, and would like to look it over.

Thank you Eugene, if you say it's in scripture, then I know you would not lie, and have that evidence for me. You can use the formation of the Anthasian Creed, as I know the 325ad original would be extremely hard to find extra writings on that.

Blessings.

Mike.

I admit, I didn't read, the 47 pages, so if what I say, has been said, forgive me.
In Isa.9:6, it reads,
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government shall be upon His shoulder, and His Name, shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.
Now, Jesus was God in the flesh, Yahshua, God salvation.
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God.
They are one and the same, but carries different roles, as Satan carries different roles.
We all consist of flesh, soul and spirit.
We are one, but have different dimensions.
3 in 1

 

[Free]

You just go straight to the same folks that pray to Mary to get what they believe. Rome has all the answers.

Anthasian Creed 1600's about.
13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.

Trinity has to acknowledge there are 3, but being Catholic you can only say there is 1.

You can read the confusion in this, and it's just a small part of it. To be compelled by the "Christian" verity (Knowing that it's factual and true scriptures mentions 3 distinct beings over and over and over)
That we are going to conclude, despite their Christian VERITY of having to say there are 3, they are going to conclude there is just 1 out of some mystery of math.

So yes Free, we have the full original Modern Catholic Doctrine translated from Latin for us, can clearly read what Trinitarians believe. We understand that Catholic religion forbids them to say there is 1, despite acknowledging the truth that there are actually 3.

Mike.

Again, this is another straw man.

 

[Free]

Many are starting with a creed made 100's years after the NT as your understanding of the trinity. May I suggest you start with the NT and Jesus. Nothing has changed as Jesus is all that is written of Him and no new revelation is needed for such understanding. You may have to believe in Him though, that is HIS words. But as Jesus stated first on some answers "If you can accept it..."

There is only one God the Father and One Lord Jesus Christ. God's Christ the one who set Jesus above all except Himself.

Jesus:
The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.

Starting with the NT, we can very clearly see that Jesus is God yet he is not the Father. Throughout the OT and NT, we clearly see that there is only one God; you provided a verse as proof of that.

The Creeds are simply summaries of biblical teachings, summarized for easy memory. They do not give new revelation or create new doctrines. Like you said, there is no new revelation needed.

 

[Brother Mike]

Again, this is another straw man.

We can stay straw man all day long, but it's your Creed. I will back everything I say with the actual doctrine, actual scriptures line upon line. If it's right.

Just saying it's a straw man is not doing a very good job at backing up anything. I am fully prepared though.
It's your Creed Free, Word for Word translated from Latin. It says exactly what it says. I posted it so there would be no misrepresentation on my part.

You said only those that know what Trinitarian is, and I posted it, I am not sure what more your asking here.

Your going to believe in this Roman Catholic Doctrine despite any evidence, or what people say. I respect that, you believe what you want, but I have scriptures and the doctrine itself to refute it's validity.

The thread is "Proof of the Trinity" No doubt it's real, I posted it, it's a real creed people believe. I just question with lots of facts how true the creed is.

Mike.

 

[Brother Mike]

I admit, I didn't read, the 47 pages, so if what I say, has been said, forgive me.
In Isa.9:6, it reads,
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government shall be upon His shoulder, and His Name, shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.
Now, Jesus was God in the flesh, Yahshua, God salvation.
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God.
They are one and the same, but carries different roles, as Satan carries different roles.
We all consist of flesh, soul and spirit.
We are one, but have different dimensions.
3 in 1

Isaiah 6:9 in Hebrew says Jesus is the Father of eternity. Actual Hebrew and He is, the author and Father of eternal life. He is also God, though the Hebrew word "EL" was used in this case, but John and the Father Called him God, good enough.

Husband and wife also are one flesh, now How that works? Who knows, but if the scripture says it, then Husband and wife only have ONE Flesh, and not two fleshes.

All I am pointing out is the Trinity doctrine itself says there are 3, and the reason to believe and say there is just 1 is because your Catholic. that is in the doctrine.

Jesus said I am ONE with the Father, but He also said we are ONE in HIM. The Oneness doctrine uses these types of scriptures, not Trinity, and we certainly not the Father despite being ONE with both of them.

i believe in God the Son, God the Father. I see no scripture or Doctrine that has a right to Mash them together into One being. We have an advocate with the Father, His name is Jesus, he is not His Father, otherwise we be lost.

Blessings.

Mike.

 

[Free]

God is Spirit. Jesus has His own spirit. Not God. And you didn't answer my question with any reasonable sense to the question.

Jesus calls the Father the ONE true God. If Jesus always was and always was GOD then how do you believe in ONE God for Jesus stated on the cross "Father into your hands I commit my spirit"

Your question does not show anything. Jesus is the God-man, God incarnate (John 1:1-3,14; Phil. 2:6-8), so there is no conflict with Jesus saying to the Father that he commits his spirit into his hands.

The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord or Holy Spirit or Spirit of truth is the Fathers Spirit. The Spirit Jesus poured out or sent He received from the Father. Again Jesus has His own spirit as a firstborn Son should. So how do you believe in ONE God if Jesus always was and always was God as Jesus calls the Father the One true God.

Because that is the clear teaching of Scripture--three persons who have always coexisted coequally, yet there is one God. And, no, that is not a contradiction.

I thought I was very clear only because the fullness of God was pleased to dwell IN Jesus He is the image of the invisible God and the exact representation of Gods being. ALL that the Father is. If Jesus was God He wouldn't need that fullness. HE WOULD BE THAT FULLNESS. Again why the need for the fullness of God to dwell in the God who always was. (your premise)

Again, the answer to your question is found in the Incarnation, particularly Phil. 2:6-8.

And you might claim to hold to one God but you don't if you state Jesus always was God since He has His own spirit. Also its clear to me the Son that was (His Spirit) was in the tent of the body prepared for Him by God.

Are you not aware that the Holy Spirit is also called the Spirit of Jesus? Do you know what the Incarnation is?

The FATHER's Fullness (Gods Spirit) is in the SON and in that Jesus can be ALL that the Father is.
Jesus=>It is the Father living in me doing His work...
Jesus=>I live by the living Father. Why isn't He God who always was? Nope. He is Gods Firstborn.

Again, this is contradictory. According to what you have stated, Jesus simply cannot be all that the Father is since the Father is a necessary being.

Needless to state the scriptures never make a claim Jesus aways was nor that the Father always was. God was very specific since He uses truth in how He reveals Himself. No God formed before Him nor One after Him.

No one is saying that another God was formed after him, except for the non-Trinitarians, including you.

Does not state always was.

That God has always existed is a basic foundational truth of Christianity. He is the "I Am," which speaks of his always having existed. This notion is throughout Scripture.
Paul
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

There is a distinction being made between God and Lord that is not captured by man made trinity statements.

It most certainly is. To be God is to be Lord.

To me as well just as Paul wrote Jesus is the firstborn of every creature.

Which, when speaking of Jesus, refers to his preeminence over all creation (a legitimate understanding of the word as used in Scripture), not his coming into being, as that would contradict John 1:1-3 and Phil 2:6-8, among others.

The God of all gave Jesus life. In that God is the God of Jesus and His heavenly Father. Seems like Jesus should have stated that. On wait! Jesus did in so many ways. Given authority; The Father is greater then Him; The Father granted Jesus life in Himself. The Father is His God. Jesus always does what pleases the Father and remains in the Fathers love in the same CONTEXT that we are to obey Jesus's command and remain in Jesus's love.

None of this shows the Trinity to be false but it does show that you are not taking John 1:1-3,14 and Phil 2:8-6 into consideration.

Now perhaps you can reply to my query: Please show me precisely how context can change whether or not Jesus is God.

 

[Free]

We can stay straw man all day long, but it's your Creed. I will back everything I say with the actual doctrine, actual scriptures line upon line. If it's right.

Just saying it's a straw man is not doing a very good job at backing up anything. I am fully prepared though.
It's your Creed Free, Word for Word translated from Latin. It says exactly what it says. I posted it so there would be no misrepresentation on my part.

You said only those that know what Trinitarian is, and I posted it, I am not sure what more your asking here.

Your going to believe in this Roman Catholic Doctrine despite any evidence, or what people say. I respect that, you believe what you want, but I have scriptures and the doctrine itself to refute it's validity.

The thread is "Proof of the Trinity" No doubt it's real, I posted it, it's a real creed people believe. I just question with lots of facts how true the creed is.

Mike.

You are just posting straw man arguments and not dealing with what the Bible actually says regarding the statements that form the doctrine of the Trinity.

 

[dianegcook]

Isaiah 6:9 in Hebrew says Jesus is the Father of eternity. Actual Hebrew and He is, the author and Father of eternal life. He is also God, though the Hebrew word "EL" was used in this case, but John and the Father Called him God, good enough.

Husband and wife also are one flesh, now How that works? Who knows, but if the scripture says it, then Husband and wife only have ONE Flesh, and not two fleshes.

All I am pointing out is the Trinity doctrine itself says there are 3, and the reason to believe and say there is just 1 is because your Catholic. that is in the doctrine.

Jesus said I am ONE with the Father, but He also said we are ONE in HIM. The Oneness doctrine uses these types of scriptures, not Trinity, and we certainly not the Father despite being ONE with both of them.

i believe in God the Son, God the Father. I see no scripture or Doctrine that has a right to Mash them together into One being. We have an advocate with the Father, His name is Jesus, he is not His Father, otherwise we be lost.

Blessings.

Mike.

Wow, learn something every day, I'm Catholic, I would never thought....2

 

[brother Paul]

Deuteronomy 10:17 identifies the one and only YHVH as Lord of lords

David worships and prays to Him (Psalm 136) also calling Him Lord of lords

Now reading Revelations 17:14 we hear why the Lamb can defeat Satan and his host…

Why? Because He IS….(fil in the blanks)

 

[brother Paul]

Zechariah 2

2:10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of you, says the LORD(Yah’hoveh).

YHVH says, in this day He is going to come, and He is going to dwell in the midst of (among or within) the daughter of Zion (the post-exhilic children of Judah? The Church?)…in the feminine

2:11 And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people (not just Jewish people, but those of many nations shall be His people):

and I will dwell in the midst of you (the LORD), and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you.

He (the YHVH Who is speaking) repeats the promise of His coming…the “you” are the daughter of Zion, and ends by declaring “the Lord of Hosts has sent me”…..

So here is YHVH sending YHVH but there is only one YHVH….

 

[brother Paul]

Now turn to Isaiah 48 where YHVH is definitely speaking…

“For my name's sake will I defer mine anger (YHVH’s), and for my praise will I refrain and not cut you off. Behold, I have refined you, but not with silver; I have chosen you in the furnace of affliction. For my own sake, even for my own sake, I will do it: for how should my name be polluted? I will not give my glory unto another. Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last. My hand has also laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand has spanned the heavens. When I call unto them, they stand up together. All of you assemble yourselves and hear…which among them has declared these things? The LORD hath loved him: he will do his pleasure on Babylon, and his arm shall be on the Chaldeans.

I, even I, have spoken it. I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous. Come near unto me, hear this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.”

Again we have YHVH speaking who is sent by YHVH bit there is only one YHVH...

YHVH speaks and has been seen (has appeared to many) yet Jesus says No man had ever seen the Father or heard His voice, the only begotten Son has declared Him (made Him manifest to us)....

Paul

 

[WIP]

Okay, some have been straying off topic, not following the forum guidelines, and teetering on RCC discussion. Let's get back to offering proof of trinity and following the guidelines.

Thanks.

 

[Drew]

Although I have only skimmed a few posts, I will bet that one line of argument for the "Jesus is God" part of the Trinity has not been addressed. In other words, as a believer in the doctrine of the Trinity, I suggest that while it is admittedly conceptually tricky to say Jesus and God are two persons within a single "God-substance", there is a much clearer route to go down, even if it means we have to know our Bible story rather well.

It is this: In the Old Testament, we have the sub-narrative of God abandoning the Temple (at its destruction by the Babylonians) and not returning even after Herod built the second temple coupled with prophecies that He (God) will indeed return to His people. Now fast-forward to the gospels and perhaps in particular the gospel of Luke. In that book, Jesus arguably intentionally enacts the return of God to His people through His final march into Jerusalem. Given the things Jesus says en route, and the symbolic power of such a trek, a case can be made that Jesus is saying this: My life, my ministry, and this very last march of mine constitute the promised return of God to Israel.

And that is effectively Jesus saying: I, Jesus, am fulfilling this promised return of your God.

And that is as close a claim to co-divinity as I think you could expect.

 

[Brother Mike]

Although I have only skimmed a few posts, I will bet that one line of argument for the "Jesus is God" part of the Trinity has not been addressed. In other words, as a believer in the doctrine of the Trinity, I suggest that while it is admittedly conceptually tricky to say Jesus and God are two persons within a single "God-substance", there is a much clearer route to go down, even if it means we have to know our Bible story rather well.

It is this: In the Old Testament, we have the sub-narrative of God abandoning the Temple (at its destruction by the Babylonians) and not returning even after Herod built the second temple coupled with prophecies that He (God) will indeed return to His people. Now fast-forward to the gospels and perhaps in particular the gospel of Luke. In that book, Jesus arguably intentionally enacts the return of God to His people through His final march into Jerusalem. Given the things Jesus says en route, and the symbolic power of such a trek, a case can be made that Jesus is saying this: My life, my ministry, and this very last march of mine constitute the promised return of God to Israel.

And that is effectively Jesus saying: I, Jesus, am fulfilling this promised return of your God.

And that is as close a claim to co-divinity as I think you could expect.

If you just did not skim through the Post Drew, you would have found that Jesus being God was covered, many times, by me and others. God the Father Called Jesus God, so there would be no question about Jesus being God and that is found in Hebrews. John also Called Jesus the True God, and Thomas Called Jesus God, saying, "my God"

Your also taking parts of the original Doctrine, and this thread seems to be about the more modern Trinity Doctrine. The Original never made a One God after the mystery of Faith was applied or stated that if your Catholic you could only say there is ONE, Despite saying there are 3.

So, Jesus coming to Earth, already called God does not do anything to prove or disprove how a mystery removes 2 of them and says there is just 1 of them.

You have to explain how the mystery of Christian Faith part, because they don't become ONE, even in the doctrine until you apply the Mystery part.

 

[Drew]

If you just did not skim through the Post Drew, you would have found that Jesus being God was covered, many times, by me and others. God the Father Called Jesus God, so there would be no question about Jesus being God and that is found in Hebrews. John also Called Jesus the True God, and Thomas Called Jesus God, saying, "my God"

But this is precisely the problem of arguing the point through concepts - it gets overly technical. I may elect to delve into this whole "concepts-based" argument, but you are simply evading my argument. Let me explain. Even if you are right in your arguments, you need to show that my argument is incorrect. Because if a reasonable reader - if such exists - will see two conflicting positions being established.

Conclusion: Error in Scripture.

Your also taking parts of the original Doctrine, and this thread seems to be about the more modern Trinity Doctrine. The Original never made a One God after the mystery of Faith was applied or stated that if your Catholic you could only say there is ONE, Despite saying there are 3.

So, Jesus coming to Earth, already called God does not do anything to prove or disprove how a mystery removes 2 of them and says there is just 1 of them.

You have to explain how the mystery of Christian Faith part, because they don't become ONE, even in the doctrine until you apply the Mystery part.

Sorry, cannot make sense of this - perhaps I need to read the thread through more carefully. But, apart from all else, if, repeat if, Jesus acts and says things that clearly show that He believes He is fulfilling the promised return of God to Israel, that establishes the very strong "equality" with God the Father that is, I believe, central to the doctrine of the Trinity.