Questions Regarding Free WIll

[Not_Now.Soon]

That sure is complex. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Could it be simpler?
Could it be that the younger (spoiled) son, was at that rebellion age where they want a taste of the pleasures of life and go out and waste a whole lot of years learning how stupid they were to do that?
This is the life story of a lot of people, and not just males.
And then, we see now the Father understood all this, and was happy the "ruined" boy figured it out and came back home.
This is a picture of the Love of God, and how He deals with a backslider, or anyone who has "gone astray".
Its a picture of JESUS standing at the front door at 2am with the light on saying...."come back home, little lost sheep"....You are FORGIVEN......come HOME....

I like that idea.

 

[childeye]

That sure is complex. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Could it be simpler?
Could it be that the younger (spoiled) son, was at that rebellion age where they want a taste of the pleasures of life and go out and waste a whole lot of years learning how stupid they were to do that?
This is the life story of a lot of people, and not just males.
And then, we see now the Father understood all this, and was happy the "ruined" boy figured it out and came back home.
This is a picture of the Love of God, and how He deals with a backslider, or anyone who has "gone astray".
Its a picture of JESUS standing at the front door at 2am with the light on saying...."come back home, little lost sheep"....You are FORGIVEN......come HOME....

I agree with your analysis of a spoiled son, since it makes my point all the same. The will of a spoiled son is not free to choose not to be spoiled. Such a will lacks the knowledge necessary to be sincerely grateful. Your depiction of Jesus is also compelling. I would only add that Jesus takes on the role of the good shepherd tending His Father's sheep, and actually goes out and finds the lost sheep and brings them into the fold. Moreover, he lays down his life to protect the flock from the wolf.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

In my not-so-humble opinion, God made his gift of hope a pillar in our knowing Him, so you are standing in a good place on this.

Faith, Hope, and Love. I think your right. It's intreasting that wisdom and knowledge are valued highly in the bible but of the three things Paul credits to be lasting the list of three is faith hope and love, with love being the greatest.

Thankyou for your thoughts, and the thread to read other's thoughts on this matter also.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I don't see that at all. He imagined his life would be greater, and he could do better for himself outside of his Fathers house. After leaving, he found out that even the servants at his Fathers house ate better than him. Only then did he realize he had sinned against his Father. So the story of the prodigal son shows he was absolutely uninformed, which allowed him to imagine things that were never really true. This story is about relationships being built upon faith. If you wish to say he had no faith, then I agree.

I do not see that at all. I see a young man in lust.

 

[childeye]

I do not see that at all. I see a young man in lust.

I just said that to some degree. Then it's not a free will but a lusting will. Moreover and more importantly, it's lack of faith in the Father's providence.

 

[Kidron]

I agree with your analysis of a spoiled son, since it makes my point all the same. The will of a spoiled son is not free to choose not to be spoiled. Such a will lacks the knowledge necessary to be sincerely grateful. Your depiction of Jesus is also compelling. I would only add that Jesus takes on the role of the good shepherd tending His Father's sheep, and actually goes out and finds the lost sheep and brings them into the fold. Moreover, he lays down his life to protect the flock from the wolf.

-
Nicely stated.
Tho i would add that after he tasted the pig's food for a while, his "spoiled" matured into "OMG" what have i done."""
And well before he washed the pig smell from his body, using "Father's" soap, he was truly grateful to be found "at home".

----

 

[childeye]

-
Nicely stated.
Tho i would add that after he tasted the pig's food for a while, his "spoiled" matured into "OMG" what have i done."""
And well before he washed the pig smell from his body, using "Father's" soap, he was truly grateful to be found "at home".

----
Prodigal Son :

Thought you'd leave it behind
You thought you could run...
Now you say to yourself....OMG..
What have i done,
You'd made up your mind they'd never keep YOU in chains
You were strong they were wrong
You could stand the rain..

Chorus.
--
Prodigal son Prodigal son
Out on the run under the gun
Please turn around while you can still come
Find your way back into the arms of the Son

When you jumped on that road
It wasn't easy like you'd thought
Illusions and dreams couldn't feed you
Or replace what you'd lost,
Noone was going to tell you what to do
You were the boss,
While you were running with the devil
You didnt count the cost

Chorus
----
Prodigal son prodigal son
Out on the run and under the gun
Please turn around while you can still come
Find you way back into the arms of the Son

To sincerely repent, one must be truly sorry. To be truly sorry, one must know what they did wrong. What the prodigal son did that was wrong overall, was to not have faith in the Father.

Everyone always says what we did wrong was disobey God. Of course this is true. But of course that's easy to say now that we have eaten of the knowledge of good and evil and experience sin and death. But what about addressing the hurt that we did to God? Shouldn't we be more sorry about that?

 

[childeye]

In my not-so-humble opinion,

The wisdom of a man who is humble enough to say he's not so humble, is wise enough to not think one's self wise.

 

[Hospes]

Free will gives me the choice to reject God's, unforced, love or I can accept it, as I eventually did.

You know, Mr Bill, I would never want to get you riled, so I proceed with great caution, caring more about you than any argument. Nonetheless, I have a question for you. When you think of your wonderful salvation, do you sense any bit of patting yourself on the back for making the right decision?

 

[Kidron]

To sincerely repent, one must be truly sorry. To be truly sorry, one must know what they did wrong. What the prodigal son did that was wrong overall, was to not have faith in the Father.

Everyone always says what we did wrong was disobey God. Of course this is true. But of course that's easy to say now that we have eaten of the knowledge of good and evil and experience sin and death. But what about addressing the hurt that we did to God? Shouldn't we be more sorry about that?

-
-
What we are ......causes what we do.
Choices are not accidents.
Repenting, is to be sorry, mostly, for what you are, as the deed is just a symptom of a "inner" condition.
What you are in your heart, explains what you have done with your life.
With some, their entire life needs to be repented of.....
With others, not quite as much.
But no matter the case, the Blood of Jesus is the eternal cure and heavenly pardon for all levels of sin and sinner that finds it in repentance and faith.

And should we be sorry for hurting God with our deeds?
Absolutely, but God also requires that we not live in condemnation, and that we forgive ourselves.
After all, He does not charge us with our sins after we are saved ... Romans 4:8..... and He does not remember them... Hebrews 8:12.
What He sees when He looks at us, is the Blood that was shed on a Cross on our behalf..
So, its good medicine to feel the sting of guilty conscience when we hurt our Father by our behavior, but its not good to let this sting ruin our tomorrow.

 

[childeye]

-
-
What we are ......causes what we do.
Choices are not accidents.
Repenting, is to be sorry, mostly, for what you are, as the deed is just a symptom of a "inner" condition.
What you are in your heart, explains what you have done with your life.
With some, their entire life needs to be repented of.....
With others, not quite as much.
But no matter the case, the Blood of Jesus is the eternal cure and heavenly pardon for all levels of sin and sinner that finds it in repentance and faith.

And should we be sorry for hurting God with our deeds?
Absolutely, but God also requires that we not live in condemnation, and that we forgive ourselves.
After all, He does not charge us with our sins after we are saved ... Romans 4:8..... and He does not remember them... Hebrews 8:12.
What He sees when He looks at us, is the Blood that was shed on a Cross on our behalf..
So, its good medicine to feel the sting of guilty conscience when we hurt our Father by our behavior, but its not good to let this sting ruin our tomorrow.

Truly these are excellent sentiments that you have expressed, Kidron. "What we are at every transient moment of our lives causes what we do". Those are words worthy to remember. But even so, my heart cannot let it go, even if it were my vanity. I don't seek pardon. For I want to hurt about it, as if the worth of who I am is only realized through the depth of His mercy and sacrifice. Even as the Holy Spirit is a sweet sorrow that cries within me at the foot of the cross. Only His embrace will ever make it right, and only His hand can dry my tears. Such is my hope, and my faith, and my Love, which He has afforded me through His own blood.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I just said that to some degree. Then it's not a free will but a lusting will. Moreover and more importantly, it's lack of faith in the Father's providence.

CE,
Lusting is a thing I know well. I spent twenty-five years playing around on stage lusting after the women, after the fame, and after the lth to be found there for any man or woman with half as much talent and with as good or often better sense of timing.

Lust is not a sexual thing any more than rape is. Lust and rape are directly linked to one another and are centered on the self-controlled desire for satisfaction and nothing more... Lust! Since we are busy discussing scripture and any student of scripture knows that all scripture is the inspired Word of God.

I know that many, foolishly, try to use History, Science and all other man-made forms of proof texting to prove the scriptures and knowing and being familiar with the longs and the shorts of those, I know it all depends on where one places their Mand-Made Faith as to where the result falls.

On the other hand, any man or woman that places their faith, neither in written words nor in, apparent, products of hand maneuvered product, and there are a small number with such faith in God, God and what the indwelling Holy Spirit proves to be true are the only proof for or of anything spiritual.

This of course leaves us with what God has wrought for a study of what has been and what will be. How about we stick there and not try to provoke me into one more string, with me expressing my concerns for your soul resulting in me being awarded a Coffee Break or permanent removal. Let's leave that to the Father and on His timing.

I can find no supporting scripture for your conclusions and in all honesty, your opinion matters no more than mine does. Neither of us are God.

 

[Hospes]

Another question: Is free will necessary for the sanctification of a born-again person?

Before death, for a child of God, the process of becoming like him is the on-going work of sanctification. Upon death, God transforms them "to be like him."

Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. (1 John 3:2 ESV)​

If you believe free-will is necessary for sanctification, isn't the transformation of a believer upon death done without the exercise of free will, i.e. given free will as necessary, would it be a violation of a person's free will?

 

[th1b.taylor]

A very good question but because God and the angels have and have exercised free will I can find no reason to believe our translation into the Spirit World will remove our free will.

Bible Verses About Free Will
Bible verses related to Free Will from the King James Version (KJV) by Relevance
- Sort By Book Order



Proverbs 16:9 - A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

Joshua 24:15 - And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

John 7:17 - If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself.

Revelation 3:20 - Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

1 Corinthians 10:13 - There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

John 1:12-13 - But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: (Read More...)

2 Timothy 2:26 - And [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Galatians 5:16-17 - [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. (Read More...)

Romans 10:9-10 - That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (Read More...)

Genesis 2:16-17 - And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: (Read More...)

Psalms 37:23 - The steps of a [good] man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way.

Deuteronomy 30:19-20 - I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: (Read More...)

Romans 13:2 - Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

Mark 8:34 - And when he had called the people [unto him] with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Ezekiel 18:30-32 - Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn [yourselves] from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. (Read More...)

As found at https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Bible-Verses-About-Free-Will/

 

[Hospes]

Another question:

If you are influenced to choose a certain way, does the influence rob you of your free will? Here's an analogy to help clarify my question:

If I offered you $5 to sleep in a tent for a year, you'd probably scoff at me and resist my influence. (Of course, those of you who come cheap can stop reading now! ) If I keep upping the $$ offered, I bet there is some point you'd say, "I'll do it." Did my influence of offering you $$ rob you of your free will?

Full disclosure, this is not an innocent question; I am laying out a trap with it.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Another question:

If you are influenced to choose a certain way, does the influence rob you of your free will? Here's an analogy to help clarify my question:

If I offered you $5 to sleep in a tent for a year, you'd probably scoff at me and resist my influence. (Of course, those of you who come cheap can stop reading now! ) If I keep upping the $$ offered, I bet there is some point you'd say, "I'll do it." Did my influence of offering you $$ rob you of your free will?

Full disclosure, this is not an innocent question; I am laying out a trap with it.

Absolutely not, it is still my choice to live that way or to reject it. Actually I might be a bad person for this one, I joined for sixty some dollars a month to stand in the line of fire but that, also, was my choice.

 

[chessman]

If you are influenced to choose a certain way, does the influence rob you of your free will?

No, not in accordance with the definition you stipulated in the OP:

First, I will define free will as the ability for a person to choose to do good or evil, regardless of the influences, for good or for evil, that may work upon them.

Nor by the Biblical examples of man's free will either.

1 Chronicles 21:10-12 (LEB) “Go, you must speak to David, saying, ‘Thus says Yahweh: “Three choices I offer to you. Choose one of them for yourself that I will do to you.”’” So Gad came to David and said to him, “Thus says Yahweh: ‘Choose for yourself: whether three years of famine or three months of devastation by your enemies while the sword of your enemies overtakes you, or three days of the sword of Yahweh, with disease in the land and the angel of Yahweh destroying throughout all the territory in Israel.’ So now, see what word I should return to my sender.”​

Evidently God's definition of free will choice does NOT preclude there being external influences upon us.

 

[smaller]

I don't seek pardon. For I want to hurt about it, as if the worth of who I am is only realized through the depth of His mercy and sacrifice. Even as the Holy Spirit is a sweet sorrow that cries within me at the foot of the cross. Only His embrace will ever make it right, and only His hand can dry my tears. Such is my hope, and my faith, and my Love, which He has afforded me through His own blood.

Excellent observation!

There ain't a freewill on the planet who can change this fact by a course of their will:

Romans 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

It is upon this law that the bed of Gods Mercy and Grace in Christ is built, because of our perpetual NEEDS for same, because of Romans 7:21.

When we recognize our "truthful" state, we will come to the conclusion of GUILT. A lot of believers like to come to the conclusion of "not guilty." God will not be making that conclusion. We are guilty and because of this, the need for Divine Mercy. Gods Will is a demand from God, for His Mercy upon us.

Romans 3:19
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

We are not exempt.

 

[chessman]

Here's an example of a born again believer being influenced by opposing pressures and making a free choice.

http://www1.cbn.com/inspirationalteaching/communion-on-the-moon-july-20-1969

Talking about taking the Gospel to the ends of the "Earth".
"...on the silent surface of the moon, 250,000 miles from home, he read a verse from the Gospel of John, and he took communion."

 

[childeye]

Excellent observation!

There ain't a freewill on the planet who can change this fact by a course of their will:

Romans 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

It is upon this law that the bed of Gods Mercy and Grace in Christ is built, because of our perpetual NEEDS for same, because of Romans 7:21.

When we recognize our "truthful" state, we will come to the conclusion of GUILT. A lot of believers like to come to the conclusion of "not guilty." God will not be making that conclusion. We are guilty and because of this, the need for Divine Mercy. Gods Will is a demand from God, for His Mercy upon us.

Romans 3:19
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

We are not exempt.

I know that you, and perhaps Hospes, are very understanding towards where I'm coming from.

Yes I agree we are guilty. But guilty of what? While I believe that we are guilty of pondering whether God is trustworthy, are we not also guilty of believing in free will? What if God only lives in us by grace through trust? Notice that in my first post #16 on this thread, I ask this question. "how would a person who chose to do good, know it was their free will and not a spiritual quality endowed by their Maker?" I believe that we are guilty of not acknowledging God as the source of all wisdom, and therefore we are not recognizing His Spirit as the source of our goodness. It seems to me that only through believing in free will could we be gullible enough to ponder that He may be untrustworthy. I've noticed in my life that empathy is a shared Spirit. Only through empathy can we feel what others feel. That is why free will in the moral/immoral sense is so problematic to me. Notice these scriptures:

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened......We should all wonder what it is that we were unthankful for that would also rob God of His Glory?

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.......If we think that we freely choose to do good or evil, when it is actually God/Love that moves us to will to do good, then wouldn't that make God into a lie and be worshipping and serving the creature over the Creator?

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:......This word "dishonor" in the blue letter lexicon means this, "to dishonour, insult, treat with contempt". So what is this lust in our hearts? It seems to me that it's to put down others in vain comparisons over who is the more righteous. This can only occur in a free will mindset where every person is responsible for their moral or immoral actions.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;.......Finally, if we have moral/immoral free wills, how is it possible for God to have the power to give us over to a reprobate mind? If we had a free will that was freely choosing between good and evil, then we could just simply choose to not become all of these things:
9 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.