Rapture and the Second Coming

[n2thelight]

I don't understand what you're asking.

You believe in the rapture being pre tribulation,yet you state that the Church goes through tribulation......That being the case,would place the rapture(our gathering) after the tribulation.....

No I didn't state that the church goes through the Great Tribulation.

We don't agree.

Blessings.

Originally Posted by farouk

As mentioned previously, the church certainly faces the tribulation principle (John 16.33), if not the great tribulation (Matthew 24.21).

So what did you mean by the above?

Also can you tell me at what point in time did Christ return become imminent?

 

[farouk]

Originally Posted by farouk

As mentioned previously, the church certainly faces the tribulation principle (John 16.33), if not the great tribulation (Matthew 24.21).

So what did you mean by the above?

Also can you tell me at what point in time did Christ return become imminent?

To the first question, I mean the church does go through the tribulation principle here and now, but the wording of Matthew 24.21 seems to show that the Great Tribulation is a unique, future event, associated with scenes of judgment on earth which are linked with the Lord Jesus's coming in power and glory, and not with His coming in the air for His church.

To the second question, there is no Scripture that I know of that must happen before His coming in the air for His church (1 Thess. 4).

Blessings.

 

[Brother Mike]

No matter what you say about that word apostate,it does not mean to be taken off this planet,ie,raptured.......

hard to follow this When Reba keeps deleting my post.

Lets get this right...................... Where did I say that Apostasia means rapture or to be taken off the planet?

We can't have a discussion if you can't stop making things up.

Also your still missing some scriptures I had asked for.

Let's start again.

Mike.

 

[n2thelight]

Originally Posted by farouk

As mentioned previously, the church certainly faces the tribulation principle (John 16.33), if not the great tribulation (Matthew 24.21).

So what did you mean by the above?

Also can you tell me at what point in time did Christ return become imminent?

To the first question, I mean the church does go through the tribulation principle here and now, but the wording of Matthew 24.21 seems to show that the Great Tribulation is a unique, future event, associated with scenes of judgment on earth which are linked with the Lord Jesus's coming in power and glory, and not with His coming in the air for His church.

To the second question, there is no Scripture that I know of that must happen before His coming in the air for His church (1 Thess. 4).

Blessings.

Gotcha on the first question

As for the second,could He have came in the air for His Church during the lifetimes of the Apostles?

 

[farouk]

Originally Posted by farouk

As mentioned previously, the church certainly faces the tribulation principle (John 16.33), if not the great tribulation (Matthew 24.21).

So what did you mean by the above?

Also can you tell me at what point in time did Christ return become imminent?

To the first question, I mean the church does go through the tribulation principle here and now, but the wording of Matthew 24.21 seems to show that the Great Tribulation is a unique, future event, associated with scenes of judgment on earth which are linked with the Lord Jesus's coming in power and glory, and not with His coming in the air for His church.

To the second question, there is no Scripture that I know of that must happen before His coming in the air for His church (1 Thess. 4).

Blessings.

Gotcha on the first question

As for the second,could He have came in the air for His Church during the lifetimes of the Apostles?

I haven't a clue what you mean by 'gotcha'.

And presumably the Apostles did not know that the Lord Jesus would not come again in their lifetime.

 

[n2thelight]

No matter what you say about that word apostate,it does not mean to be taken off this planet,ie,raptured.......

hard to follow this When Reba keeps deleting my post.

Lets get this right...................... Where did I say that Apostasia means rapture or to be taken off the planet?

We can't have a discussion if you can't stop making things up.

Also your still missing some scriptures I had asked for.

Let's start again.

Mike.

I can see like JLB your having issues with Greek words. This is the correct translation of that since "Falling away" has thrown you.

WEB:
2Th 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,
2Th 2:1 Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to him, we ask you

Most people I know who believe in a rapture use the word departure to mean taken of the earth to Heaven,what does it mean in your above post?

 

[n2thelight]

To the first question, I mean the church does go through the tribulation principle here and now, but the wording of Matthew 24.21 seems to show that the Great Tribulation is a unique, future event, associated with scenes of judgment on earth which are linked with the Lord Jesus's coming in power and glory, and not with His coming in the air for His church.

To the second question, there is no Scripture that I know of that must happen before His coming in the air for His church (1 Thess. 4).

Blessings.

Gotcha on the first question

As for the second,could He have came in the air for His Church during the lifetimes of the Apostles?

I haven't a clue what you mean by 'gotcha'.

And presumably the Apostles did not know that the Lord Jesus would not come again in their lifetime.

Gotcha ,meaning I unerstand what you were saying,as to the apostles,my question was,could He(Christ)had came in their lifetime?

 

[farouk]

To the first question, I mean the church does go through the tribulation principle here and now, but the wording of Matthew 24.21 seems to show that the Great Tribulation is a unique, future event, associated with scenes of judgment on earth which are linked with the Lord Jesus's coming in power and glory, and not with His coming in the air for His church.

To the second question, there is no Scripture that I know of that must happen before His coming in the air for His church (1 Thess. 4).

Blessings.

Gotcha on the first question

As for the second,could He have came in the air for His Church during the lifetimes of the Apostles?

I haven't a clue what you mean by 'gotcha'.

And presumably the Apostles did not know that the Lord Jesus would not come again in their lifetime.

Gotcha ,meaning I unerstand what you were saying,as to the apostles,my question was,could He(Christ)had came in their lifetime?

Well, presumably from their perspective they didn't know, from the Lord's perspective He chose not to reveal to individuals the extact time when.

Blessings.

 

[n2thelight]

I haven't a clue what you mean by 'gotcha'.

And presumably the Apostles did not know that the Lord Jesus would not come again in their lifetime.

Gotcha ,meaning I unerstand what you were saying,as to the apostles,my question was,could He(Christ)had came in their lifetime?

Well, presumably from their perspective they didn't know, from the Lord's perspective He chose not to reveal to individuals the extact time when.

Blessings.

What I'm asking is COULD He had returned in their lifetime????In other words,when did His(Christ)return become imminent??????

 

[Deborah13]

Also,please note at which trumpet satan appears....

As for Ephesians,I'll just respond to this in a question.....When one goes to war,what is the purpose of the armour?Why would we need this if we not here,when the war with satan,really breaks out?

This war is now, and will be,a spiritual one....

Your response here makes it quite clear that the understanding of scripture can be clouded by what we already previously believe even as our understanding of another person's beliefs can.
We are suppose to be using that armor even right now, are we not?

Tell me what greater evil can satan do in this world than he has not already done in the past? What new atrocities could be committed in the world? Man even, while being controlled by satan, betrayed the Lord of Glory.

The reason why satan has not been kicked out of Heaven yet,is for the simple fact that had he been,he would now be sitting on the throne pretending to be Christ......

??? Not disagreeing, just wondering about scripture that leads you to this conclusion? What throne? A literal throne, where?

 

[Brother Mike]

Most people I know who believe in a rapture use the word departure to mean taken of the earth to Heaven,what does it mean in your above post?

The Word from it's root means departure. That is from the Verb used 15 times in the NT, the action verb apostasia was made from just means to depart. The noun Apostasia is a Female Greek noun and it means depart from a previous standing.

That is all the Word means, there is nothing in the Word that denotes Rapture, or leaving the Earth. ZERO!!! In fact the Word can't mean that because a Female noun does not define the Greek object after itself.

If we remove the Greek Word (Except)

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The it would read that We must depart away from the Son of Perdition with the idea that we once followed after him. Son of Perdition is the Male Noun and a Greek Title used twice.

This is why the translators added.......... for that day shall not come because of that Female Noun not having a clear object after to follow. Paul by the Holy Spirit made it something that must occur first before the Object and a bit confusing, so the extra text was added for clarification.

Apostasia only means to leave something that was once stood by. From the Latin translation of Apostasia we get the English Word Apostasy. Someone that deflects from what is true.

The only other use of the Word comes in acts translated Forsake. In this case we have the Higher Male noun object so we know what Apostasia has departed from.

Act 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake (Apostasia) Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

Here Paul is being accused of teaching to Leave (Forsake- Apostasia ) what Moses taught about circumcision and following the law.

If the Word meant to deflect from the truth of the gospel then Paul was in error.

The Word does not mean that though, it just means to depart a previous position. Which is how it was properly used in Acts..................

The definition by Strong's and Thayer gave the definition according to the English word.

Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”): - falling away, forsake.

It's properly leaving a state of something once stood. Normally used in Ancient Greek writing to leave a government or go away from what the majority believed. Hence it gets it's definition by some and others it was just translated depart.

The word Apostasy came from the Latin Word

merriam-webster

Middle English apostasie, from Late Latin apostasia, from Greek, literally, revolt, from aphistasthai to revolt, depart from apo- + histasthai to stand — more at stand

It means to revolt, leave, depart from a position once stood.

Quote Originally Posted by n2thelight View Post
The reason why satan has not been kicked out of Heaven yet,is for the simple fact that had he been,he would now be sitting on the throne pretending to be Christ......
??? Not disagreeing, just wondering about scripture that leads you to this conclusion? What throne? A literal throne, where?

What throne would that be? I don't see any scripture where Satan gets a throne, and Have lots of scriptures to prove Satan is on the Earth with his Angles causes lots of Havoc. The make believe is just amazing.



Mike.

 

[Deborah13]

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The it would read that We must depart away from the Son of Perdition with the idea that we once followed after him. Son of Perdition is the Male Noun and a Greek Title used twice.

This is why the translators added.......... for that day shall not come because of that Female Noun not having a clear object after to follow. Paul by the Holy Spirit made it something that must occur first before the Object and a bit confusing, so the extra text was added for clarification.

What day shall not come? The day that is spoken about in verse 2, "the day of Christ".

There is no Greek word 'except'.... it says... "ean mE" = ean =if ever, mE= no
So the translators used the English word 'except' but they could have said, 'not unless' or something else like that. ( below the NASB translation).

And on top of that they put the adverb 'first' after the noun instead of near the verb 'come' OLD English poetic I guess you could call it. It simply says, 'first come' or 'come first'.

So lets take it all out, the added words, and arrange in more modern English.
" Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;" KJV original

Same verse in the NASB,
3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for [it will not come] unless the [a]apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

So we are correct in saying that within the context of the verse we cannot say what the 'apostasian' is from. So we have to go to the context of the whole discussion of what Paul is talking about. Can we find it?
verse 15
15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter [s]from us.

So if the danger is in a state of 'away standing' and here Paul is saying so 'stand firm', I have to think that the 'away standing' is from the Christian faith.
What about the ones in the state of 'away standing', how are they described? verse 10
10 and with [i]all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

I think these are the ones that are described here...

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

 

[Brother Mike]

What day shall not come? The day that is spoken about in verse 2, "the day of Christ".

Why do you have to get so DEEEEEEP!!!!!

Do I do this? Do I get to Deeeep so I somehow sow this and have to reap it back? Let's examine this with the Word.

Apostasia means to leave, depart a previous standing or place.

They day mentioned is the Day of Christ.

This Day of Christ must take place before the Son of perdition is revealed. Something about this day must happen so that the one that withholds is taken out of the way.

So we are correct in saying that within the context of the verse we cannot say what the 'apostasian' is from. So we have to go to the context of the whole discussion of what Paul is talking about. Can we find it?
verse 15
15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.

We are all told to stand firm, keep our standing. My question would be, how many have to leave this standing before the Son of Perdition is revealed? That is a problem I have because nothing indicates who, or the amount that have to leave the standing. Right now, if you look at all the dead Churches, Methodist taking votes to allow Gay Pastors, and just the people that were on fire for God but are not anymore. (Love of many wax cold) then I would say we have a good enough number now for the Son of Perdition to be revealed.

I don't know that because I have no indication.

Paul never one time had any message that any part of the real church would fail. Just the opposite that we can come to the knowledge of the truth, be like Jesus complete that the Lord does present himself a church without spot or blemish. The Gates of Hell don't stand a chance against the Church.

So anyones that departed or left (Which there are lots already) would not effect the over all effect of the Church.

That is the issue I have with that. I would need at least a scripture that tells me that most the church as a whole is going to blow it big time, but I have scriptures that say opposite.

What about the ones in the state of 'away standing', how are they described? verse 10
10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

These folks can't be counted in Deb............... They never received the knowledge of the truth. We have to look for those that once stood in the Christian faith and then left.

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Once again, I have to ask if they were ever right? They came with and went out but were they ever counted as ones that were in the truth (Standing in Christian faith) then left?

So we are correct in saying that within the context of the verse we cannot say what the 'apostasian' is from. So we have to go to the context of the whole discussion of what Paul is talking about. Can we find it?
verse 15
15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.

The Problem is that the Object normally follows right after the Female noun. If we seriously read it with Greek rules applied it would read like this.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together (Female noun to collect in one place) unto him,

The object is Him.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Except (Before, not until, If not, unless)
First (Order of importance, more of a rank of things)

Using just the Greek rules, it reads that first there must come a departure from those standing with the Son of Perdition.

Son of Perdition would be the object.

The day of Christ?

We have to look before in the Article then to get what is Departed from that once stood.

Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

The day of Christ seems to end something here.

1Co_1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Php_1:10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;
Php_2:16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

It appears that when the Day of Christ gets here, we get with Jesus.

So your points make sense, I just have the issues with what I mentioned, Apostasia should have had an object, or it's meaning comes before in the Article.

I believe that Apostasia is defined by our Gathering Together and the Day of Christ. Both to the reader would mean leaving with Jesus and after that saying,

How I read it. If we make Apostasia mean to leave the standing of the truth, then it does not cover the subject Jesus coming, our gathering and what is in the way.

Don't be shaken in mind or worried, because our departure from here with Jesus at the day of Christ will come first, then the Son of perdition revealed.

Now you know what is holding back the son of perdition because Jesus must take away Us (His body) Then the Son of Perdition is revealed.

For the mystery of Lawlessness and sin is already working in the Word but restrained until He (Jesus, His body and light of the World) is taken out of the way.

This is the only way I can fit the Greek words and get the understanding for where Sin abounds, Grace abounds more and more....... There is sin in the World but the World has a light, and grace.

Blessings.

If that don't make sense, I am sorry, but after looking at this passage for the last 3 years, it's the only thing that makes sense when comparing other scriptures. Apostasia can mean to leave the truth, but I just don't see it in the Article and I don't believe you just throw up Female nouns without having them defined in the Article before or object after.

Does not mean I am right, but It's what makes the most sense and to be honest.......... "Seems right inside" you know what that means, some won't.

Mike.

 

[reba]

When is the resurrection?

 

[Brother Mike]

When is the resurrection?

Checking with the scribes now. Will have day time and exact hour once they get it figured out. Be ready!!!

Mike.

 

[farouk]

There's a verse in the New Testament which says that no one knows the exact hour of His coming.

Blessings.

 

[Brother Mike]

There's a verse in the New Testament which says that no one knows the exact hour of His coming.

Blessings.

Sorry, I had to fire those scribes.

This Event:

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

This Event releases the sixth seal. We won't know the day or hour, so this can't be the Event here.
We know this Event sounds the 7th Angelic Trumpet to end Tribulation (Mystery of God)

So just counting we know almost the exact day, and Jesus said you won't know the day or hour.

After the 6th seal the 7th seal is also released.

Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

So everything goes dark, the sun, moon and stars and the earth waits this 1/2 hour for lights to burst through the clouds and the coming of Jesus.


Event 2:
Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


This Event nobody knows the day or even the Hour. He comes as a surprise it seems as people are working in the field.

We know a tribulation is coming because Jesus said......

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

After that tribulation He comes.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: (For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. )

and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

At the time we don't know the day or hour but a tribulation is coming this World has never seen before or since a resurrection event takes place before and at the same time we are delivered.

Luk_21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

So we watch a pray to stand worthy to Escape "ALL" those things for as two are plowing in the field, one is taken, one is left. We don't know the day or hour but when that comes, just like Noah who the people did not expect a thing until Noah closed up the boat so shall the whole world know.

Mike.

 

[n2thelight]

Also,please note at which trumpet satan appears....

As for Ephesians,I'll just respond to this in a question.....When one goes to war,what is the purpose of the armour?Why would we need this if we not here,when the war with satan,really breaks out?

This war is now, and will be,a spiritual one....

Your response here makes it quite clear that the understanding of scripture can be clouded by what we already previously believe even as our understanding of another person's beliefs can.
We are suppose to be using that armor even right now, are we not?

Tell me what greater evil can satan do in this world than he has not already done in the past? What new atrocities could be committed in the world? Man even, while being controlled by satan, betrayed the Lord of Glory.

The reason why satan has not been kicked out of Heaven yet,is for the simple fact that had he been,he would now be sitting on the throne pretending to be Christ......

??? Not disagreeing, just wondering about scripture that leads you to this conclusion? What throne? A literal throne, where?

Yes we are suppose to be using that armor right now,however it's gonna get worse when satan arrives here in person,not spirit,we will see him....

satan can't do nothing more evil than has been done to Christians in the past,that's been one of my points for not believing in a rapture.....Even then it won't be him that shall be killing people,it will be those who think they do God a service

John 16:2

King James Version (KJV)

2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.


satan can't go around killing people,while having them believe he is Christ...

That's the whole purpose of the tribulation ,deception,and that deception is ,satan pretending to be Christ.....

II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

The reason I say he has not been kicked out yet is because when he is kicked out,we will see him........

Also we are yet to have a one world government,(first beast)that satan wil heal(satan,2nd beast)he does that when he comes,ie gets kicked out of heaven....

Just to add,satan does not get kicked out of Heaven until the 6th trump....

 

[Brother Mike]

Yes we are suppose to be using that armor right now,however it's gonna get worse when satan arrives here in person,not spirit,we will see him....

So Satan being a Person is going to make him Worse. Giving him a limited flesh body where he just can't zip from one place to another just makes Satan so awesome.

Oh my................. I am thinking that there won't be much left to do for you here.

I would ask for the scripture, but there are none saying that Satan is coming as a person. ZERO.

satan can't do nothing more evil than has been done to Christians in the past,that's been one of my points for not believing in a rapture.....Even then it won't be him that shall be killing people,it will be those who think they do God a service

Well that Would have to be in the Future for sure!!! Now if we could just get that idea over the the Muslims. ............ Amazing......just amazing.

satan can't go around killing people,while having them believe he is Christ...

Scripture that states Satan thinks He is going to be anointed of God............... give the scripture. The word Christ is not evem a Proper male noun It's a Greek Adjective like Anionios.

Scripture please!!!

The reason I say he has not been kicked out yet is because when he is kicked out,we will see him........

So when Satan walks up to you and introduces himself, then you know he just got kicked out of Heaven.... Got it!!!


I have just got to ask. Who the heck you listen to, or you just make this stuff up?

You know the drill, please provide all the backing scriptures please.

Mike.

 

[Deborah13]

They never received the knowledge of the truth. We have to look for those that once stood in the Christian faith and then left.

When I read it quickly I saw 'receive knowledge of the truth' but that is not what it says. It says, " love of the truth".
Isn't the last church age the 'lukewarm' church?

I'm just really glad that what we believe about the end times is not about our salvation. We'd really get desperate about this and we shouldn't. I think we should just be ready all the time and be witnessing the Gospel message of Christ and His work, to anyone who will listen.