Rapture Theory

[Kathi]

Curiosity question,why do you say they are in the grave,when they appeared with Christ on the Mount?

Good question.

 

[Kathi]

Another question,if all the saved are raptured,who will satan try and fool that he's Christ,for that's his sole purpose,deception,which is claiming to be Christ?

See it's my understanding that the world will be deceived into following him,not forced......

The Antichrist will come as a very charming,attractive and very,very intelligent person.He will charm the world and have them eating out of the palm of his hand.These would be the people during the tribulation.

 

[n2thelight]

The Antichrist will come as a very charming,attractive and very,very intelligent person.He will charm the world and have them eating out of the palm of his hand.These would be the people during the tribulation.

And he will explain the disappearence of millions,how?So you feel the anti christ will be a man possesed by satan,if so when does satan himself show up....I ask because I feel the antichrist is satan.....

 

[n2thelight]

One of my curiosity questions again....Throughout history Christians have gone through persecutions of all types,horrible deaths and torture...My question is why do you all think you will escape?

 

[for_his_glory]

Curiosity question,why do you say they are in the grave,when they appeared with Christ on the Mount?

Enoch, Moses and Elijah were not taken up to the third Heaven as some teach that when they were seen (not Enoch) of Peter, James and John in Matthew 17:1-9 it was only a transfiguration like a vision that they saw Jesus transfigured as was Moses and Elijah. There is no one in the third heaven except God and Jesus as 1Thessalonians 4:13-18 says we who have died are only asleep unto the coming of the Lord in the clouds and those who are asleep before us who are still alive will be taken up first and we who are alive will meet them in the clouds.

Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
(Does not say where God took him)

Heb 11:5 by faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Deu 34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
Deu 34:6 and he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Beth-peor: but no man knoweth of his sepulcher unto this day.

2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. (Heaven here means atmosphere)

Elijah, having ascended into the air by a whirlwind was carried away out of sight beyond the horizon. Several years after he was taken away King Jehoram received a letter from him! How long after? There are some difficulties in figuring the exact chronology as it varies from 2 to 10 years or more. A note in Josephus who a Jewish historian of the first century A.D. says 4 years, while the JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA figures it at 7 years.

Regardless of the exact number of years there came writing to Jehoram from Elijah the prophet, saying..." (2Chron 21:12). Now the wickedness of Jehoram, for which he was being rebuked in the letter, took place after Elijah was taken away, yet the letter speaks of these things as past events, and the punishment to come upon him as yet future. So the idea of some, that Elijah wrote the letter before he was removed by the whirlwind, is proved wrong.

Elijah was taken up by the whirlwind into the first heaven and transported to another location on Earth. God did not see fit in His purpose to reveal his whereabouts. What some people do not know is that there are three heavens. The first heaven is the Atmosphere, the air surrounding the earth. Birds fly "in the heaven" - certainly not to God's throne. We read in Genesis l:2 of "foul that may fly above the Earth in the open firmament of heaven." Jacob, when blessing Isaac, said: "God give you of the dew of heaven," and Moses was joyful that the "heavens shall drop down dew" (Gen.27:28; Deut.33:28). The dew comes from the first heaven - the atmosphere. The second heaven is the expanse of this awesome universe - where the stars, moon and planets are. The Psalmists often wrote about the "Heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon, and the stars, which you have ordained" (Ps.8:3; Gen.1:15-17). The third heaven is where the throne of God exists, where the heavenly temple is found and the heavenly Jerusalem. It is the heaven where Paul and John were caught up to in vision (2 Cor.12: l-4; Rev.4: l-2).

 

[for_his_glory]

Another question,if all the saved are raptured,who will satan try and fool that he's Christ,for that's his sole purpose,deception,which is claiming to be Christ?

See it's my understanding that the world will be deceived into following him,not forced......

I do not believe in a pre-trib rapture as I believe we will go through all things of Revelation up to Chapter 19 when Christ returns for his Bride and then we come back down to earth with him as He sets his feet on the Mt of Olives to fight the final battle when he cast Satan, the beast and the false prophets into the lake of fire forever and then making thie present Earth renewed for the ushering down of the new heaven and new Jerusalem.

 

[veryberry]

Enoch, Moses and Elijah were not taken up to the third Heaven as some teach that when they were seen (not Enoch) of Peter, James and John in Matthew 17:1-9 it was only a transfiguration like a vision that they saw Jesus transfigured as was Moses and Elijah. There is no one in the third heaven except God and Jesus as 1Thessalonians 4:13-18 says we who have died are only asleep unto the coming of the Lord in the clouds and those who are asleep before us who are still alive will be taken up first and we who are alive will meet them in the clouds.

Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
(Does not say where God took him)

Heb 11:5 by faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Deu 34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
Deu 34:6 and he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Beth-peor: but no man knoweth of his sepulcher unto this day.

2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. (Heaven here means atmosphere)

Elijah, having ascended into the air by a whirlwind was carried away out of sight beyond the horizon. Several years after he was taken away King Jehoram received a letter from him! How long after? There are some difficulties in figuring the exact chronology as it varies from 2 to 10 years or more. A note in Josephus who a Jewish historian of the first century A.D. says 4 years, while the JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA figures it at 7 years.

Regardless of the exact number of years there came writing to Jehoram from Elijah the prophet, saying..." (2Chron 21:12). Now the wickedness of Jehoram, for which he was being rebuked in the letter, took place after Elijah was taken away, yet the letter speaks of these things as past events, and the punishment to come upon him as yet future. So the idea of some, that Elijah wrote the letter before he was removed by the whirlwind, is proved wrong.

Elijah was taken up by the whirlwind into the first heaven and transported to another location on Earth. God did not see fit in His purpose to reveal his whereabouts. What some people do not know is that there are three heavens. The first heaven is the Atmosphere, the air surrounding the earth. Birds fly "in the heaven" - certainly not to God's throne. We read in Genesis l:2 of "foul that may fly above the Earth in the open firmament of heaven." Jacob, when blessing Isaac, said: "God give you of the dew of heaven," and Moses was joyful that the "heavens shall drop down dew" (Gen.27:28; Deut.33:28). The dew comes from the first heaven - the atmosphere. The second heaven is the expanse of this awesome universe - where the stars, moon and planets are. The Psalmists often wrote about the "Heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon, and the stars, which you have ordained" (Ps.8:3; Gen.1:15-17). The third heaven is where the throne of God exists, where the heavenly temple is found and the heavenly Jerusalem. It is the heaven where Paul and John were caught up to in vision (2 Cor.12: l-4; Rev.4: l-2).

2 Cor 5: 8 - We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

What does this mean? I take it as, when I die, I am with the Lord where he is. If he is in the third level, then I am in the third level.

2 Cor 12:2 - I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Paul has been there...

 

[veryberry]

Enoch, Moses and Elijah were not taken up to the third Heaven as some teach that when they were seen (not Enoch) of Peter, James and John in Matthew 17:1-9 it was only a transfiguration like a vision that they saw Jesus transfigured as was Moses and Elijah. There is no one in the third heaven except God and Jesus as 1Thessalonians 4:13-18 says we who have died are only asleep unto the coming of the Lord in the clouds and those who are asleep before us who are still alive will be taken up first and we who are alive will meet them in the clouds.

Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
(Does not say where God took him)

Heb 11:5 by faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Deu 34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
Deu 34:6 and he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Beth-peor: but no man knoweth of his sepulcher unto this day.

2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. (Heaven here means atmosphere)

Elijah, having ascended into the air by a whirlwind was carried away out of sight beyond the horizon. Several years after he was taken away King Jehoram received a letter from him! How long after? There are some difficulties in figuring the exact chronology as it varies from 2 to 10 years or more. A note in Josephus who a Jewish historian of the first century A.D. says 4 years, while the JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA figures it at 7 years.

Regardless of the exact number of years there came writing to Jehoram from Elijah the prophet, saying..." (2Chron 21:12). Now the wickedness of Jehoram, for which he was being rebuked in the letter, took place after Elijah was taken away, yet the letter speaks of these things as past events, and the punishment to come upon him as yet future. So the idea of some, that Elijah wrote the letter before he was removed by the whirlwind, is proved wrong.

Elijah was taken up by the whirlwind into the first heaven and transported to another location on Earth. God did not see fit in His purpose to reveal his whereabouts. What some people do not know is that there are three heavens. The first heaven is the Atmosphere, the air surrounding the earth. Birds fly "in the heaven" - certainly not to God's throne. We read in Genesis l:2 of "foul that may fly above the Earth in the open firmament of heaven." Jacob, when blessing Isaac, said: "God give you of the dew of heaven," and Moses was joyful that the "heavens shall drop down dew" (Gen.27:28; Deut.33:28). The dew comes from the first heaven - the atmosphere. The second heaven is the expanse of this awesome universe - where the stars, moon and planets are. The Psalmists often wrote about the "Heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon, and the stars, which you have ordained" (Ps.8:3; Gen.1:15-17). The third heaven is where the throne of God exists, where the heavenly temple is found and the heavenly Jerusalem. It is the heaven where Paul and John were caught up to in vision (2 Cor.12: l-4; Rev.4: l-2).

2 Cor 5: 8 - We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

What does this mean? I take it as, when I die, I am with the Lord where he is. If he is in the third level, then I am in the third level.

2 Cor 12:2 - I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Paul has been there...

 

[Kathi]

And he will explain the disappearence of millions,how?So you feel the anti christ will be a man possesed by satan,if so when does satan himself show up....I ask because I feel the antichrist is satan.....

onelove I do not know how the antichrist will explain the many people who will disappear.There has been alot of speculation but that is all it is.I do know that it will be very convincing.Yes,I do believe the antichrist will be satan Revelation 13:1-18.
I believe that the antichrist will be revealed in what is called "The Great Tribulation" which is the last three years Matthew 24:21.

 

[n2thelight]

Enoch, Moses and Elijah were not taken up to the third Heaven as some teach that when they were seen (not Enoch) of Peter, James and John in Matthew 17:1-9 it was only a transfiguration like a vision that they saw Jesus transfigured as was Moses and Elijah. There is no one in the third heaven except God and Jesus as 1Thessalonians 4:13-18 says we who have died are only asleep unto the coming of the Lord in the clouds and those who are asleep before us who are still alive will be taken up first and we who are alive will meet them in the clouds.

So do you think Christ was just talking with visions?As for the sleeping,I don't believe anyone is in the grave,scripture tells me that at death the soul returns to the Father, Ecclesiastes 12:7...Also the souls under the alter Revelation 6:9
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:....I don't believe in soul sleep,to me the Richman and the Beggar proves that all return to Heaven,and exactly what happens when they get there....Some dismiss this as simply a parable,I can't as find it to imformative......

 

[Kathi]

One of my curiosity questions again....Throughout history Christians have gone through persecutions of all types,horrible deaths and torture...My question is why do you all think you will escape?

We have all gone through trials and tribulations in history.Their have been many "antichrists" which means a person who is against Christ but not the Antichrist who shows up in the Great Tribulation.
I feel that I will escape the tribulation because when I read the Bible literally that is what it tells me.It is an act of deliverance 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17,5:9.

 

[reba]

I believe that the antichrist will be revealed in what is called "The Great Tribulation" which is the last three years Matthew 24:21.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The scriptures do not say ... the great tribulation .... that phrase is mans idea.... the scripture says 'great tribulation' a subtil but real difference

 

[reba]

The Biblical definition of antichrist is found in the 'little books of John....

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

 

[Kathi]

I believe that the antichrist will be revealed in what is called "The Great Tribulation" which is the last three years Matthew 24:21.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The scriptures do not say ... the great tribulation .... that phrase is mans idea.... the scripture says 'great tribulation' a subtil but real difference

reba I read the Bible as literally as I can whenever possible.The tribulation will last 7 years.Daniel 9:24-27 tell me this.
The great tribulation will be the last 31/2 years of the tribulation.I get this from the following verses:
Matthew 24:21
Matthew 24:29-30
Daniel 12:1
Jeremiah 30:7

 

[reba]

I understand where the idea comes from... Spending the first 40 years of my life believing/being taught this very thing..

Daniel does not literally say 7 years

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Matt does not give that time frame

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Nor Dan
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
and Jeremiah says 'that day.'..
Jer 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

How long was the earthly ministry of Jesus?

 

[Kathi]

I have given my views.

 

[reba]

 

[Kathi]

Back at cha....

 

[n2thelight]

reba I read the Bible as literally as I can whenever possible.The tribulation will last 7 years.Daniel 9:24-27 tell me this.
The great tribulation will be the last 31/2 years of the tribulation.I get this from the following verses:
Matthew 24:21
Matthew 24:29-30
Daniel 12:1
Jeremiah 30:7

So what do you think the time will be shortened too?

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.Matthew 24:22

Also,the Elect of God will be here,but the rest of the Church,shall be raptured,dosn't sound right....

 

[Kathi]

So what do you think the time will be shortened too?

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.Matthew 24:22

Also,the Elect of God will be here,but the rest of the Church,shall be raptured,dosn't sound right....

I have given my views on what I believe of the rapture.I do not think their are alot of pretribbers here so I will not continue.