Reasons Why Water Baptism is not for today

[Free]

Here is why baptism is for today:

John 4:1-2, “1 Now when Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John 2 (although Jesus himself did not baptize, but only his disciples)â€Â

Matt 28:19, “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,â€Â

First we see that Jesus' disciples were baptizing people and then we see that Jesus commands his disciples to continue doing it in making disciples of all nations.

Acts 10:47-48, “47 Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.â€Â

Acts 2:38-41, “38 And Peter said to them, Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself. 40 And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation. 41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.â€Â

Acts 8:12-16, “12 But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13 Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles performed, he was amazed.
14 Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, 15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.â€Â

Acts 8:35-38, “35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this Scripture he told him the good news about Jesus. 36 And as they were going along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized? 38 And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him.â€Â

Acts 16:13-15, 30-33, “13 And on the Sabbath day we went outside the gate to the riverside, where we supposed there was a place of prayer, and we sat down and spoke to the women who had come together. 14 One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul. 15 And after she was baptized, and her household as well, she urged us, saying, If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay. And she prevailed upon us.â€Â

30 Then he brought them out and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household. 32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family.

Here we see several instances of the Apostles carrying out the command of Christ.

1 Cor 1:13-17, “13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name. 16 (I did baptize also the household of Stephanas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.)
17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.â€Â

Additional evidence that the Apostles continued to baptize believers.

Rom 6:3-4, “3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.â€Â

Col 2:12, “12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.â€Â

In both of these instances Paul uses the analogy of Jesus' death and resurrection for being baptized into Christ. This supports immersion in water.

1Pet 3:20-21, “20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.
21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,â€Â

A much more clear analogy referencing baptism and water.


The natural progression is clear--Jesus was baptized, the disciples baptized people, Christ then commanded the disciples to go to all the nations and baptize, and the disciples then continued to baptize both Jews and Gentiles. Baptism was a continuous practice that showed no signs of ceasing since Jesus commanded it. It is something that all believers should do, first and foremost because it is a command of Christ for those who are his disciples.

 

[francisdesales]

Here is why baptism is for today:

A good compilation of the Scripture support of why we do what we do.

I would add the Scriptures of Christ's baptism by John in the Jordan. We Christians do what our Lord did - and even though He didn't NEED to be baptized (by the Spirit), we find that He went down into the waters and came out with the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove upon Him. At THAT point, He began His ministry.

I believe that Christ is our pioneer and we are to emulate Him as much as possible. These are related in Scriptures as signs for US. Thus, the baptism of Jesus is excellent support for the necessity of water/Spirit baptism, since it was HERE that the gates of heaven opened to man (as Jesus is our representative), it is HERE that Christ begins His ministry of doing the Father's work, it is HERE that Christ receives the Spirit in power and it is HERE that the Apostles clearly remember as they continued to teach the necessity of Baptism after Jesus had ascended to heaven.

Here, we become a "beloved son" of the Father, with whom He is well pleased.

I think meditating on the Lord's Baptism and our own baptism by water and the Spirit and how they are similar will be edifying.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Here is why baptism is for today:

I would like to add a few comments from those first Christians, as they were in an excellent position to know the sense of what the Apostles taught through the Scriptures. In every case I have come across, I find that "being born again" refers to being baptized in water and the Spirit...


For Christ also said, 'Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.' Now, that it is impossible for those who have once been born to enter into their mothers' wombs, is manifest to all. And how those who have sinned and repent shall escape their sins, is declared by Esaias the prophet, as I wrote above; he thus speaks: 'Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from your souls; learn to do well…And though your sins be as scarlet, I will make them white like wool; and though they be as crimson, I will make them white as snow...And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; he who leads to the layer the person that is to be washed calling him by this name alone…And this washing is called illumination, because they who learn these things are illuminated in their understandings. And in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name of the Holy Ghost, who through the prophets foretold all things about Jesus, he who is illuminated is washed." Justin Martyr, First Apology, 61 (A.D. 110-165).

"Moreover, the things proceeding from the waters were blessed by God, that this also might be a sign of men's being destined to receive repentance and remission of sins, through the water and laver of regeneration,--as many as come to the truth, and are born again, and receive blessing from God." Theopilus of Antioch, To Autolycus, 2:16 (A.D. 181).

" 'And dipped himself,' says [the Scripture], 'seven times in Jordan.' It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but it served as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: 'Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.'" Irenaeus, Fragment, 34 (A.D. 190).

"When, however, the prescript is laid down that 'without baptism, salvation is attainable by none" (chiefly on the ground of that declaration of the Lord, who says, "Unless one be born of water, he hath not life.'" Tertullian, On Baptism, 12:1 (A.D. 203).

"But give me now your best attention, I pray you, for I wish to go back to the fountain of life, and to view the fountain that gushes with healing. The Father of immortality sent the immortal Son and Word into the world, who came to man in order to wash him with water and the Spirit; and He, begetting us again to incorruption of soul and body, breathed into us the breath (spirit) of life, and endued us with an incorruptible panoply. If, therefore, man has become immortal, he will also be God. And if he is made God by water and the Holy Spirit after the regeneration of the layer he is found to be also joint-heir with Christ after the resurrection from the dead. Wherefore I preach to this effect: Come, all ye kindreds of the nations, to the immortality of the baptism." Hippolytus of Rome, Discourse on the Holy Theophany, 8 (A.D. 217).

"But you will perhaps say, What does the, baptism of water contribute towards the worship of God? In the first place, because that which hath pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because, when yon are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so at length you shall be able to attain salvation; hut otherwise it is impossible. For thus hath the true prophet testified to its with an oath: 'Verily I say to you, That unless a man is born again of water, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Therefore make haste; for there is in these waters a certain power of mercy which was borne upon them at the beginning, and acknowledges those who are baptized under the name of the threefold sacrament, and rescues them from future punishments, presenting as a gift to God the souls that are consecrated by baptism. Betake yourselves therefore to these waters, for they alone can quench the violence of the future fire; and he who delays to approach to them, it is evident that the idol of unbelief remains in him, and by it be is prevented from hastening to the waters which confer salvation. For whether you be righteous or unrighteous, baptism is necessary for you in every respect: for the righteous, that perfection may be accomplished in him, and he may be born again to God; for the unrighteous, that pardon may he vouchsafed him of the sins which he has committed in ignorance. Therefore all should hasten to he born again to God without delay, because the end of every one's life is uncertain." Recognitions of Clement, 6:9 (A.D. 221).

"'But perhaps some one will say, What does it contribute to piety to be baptized with water? In the first place, because you do that which is pleasing to God; and in the second place, being born again to God of water, by reason of fear you change your first generation, which is of lust, and thus you are able to obtain salvation. But otherwise it is impossible. For thus the prophet has sworn to us, saying, 'Verily I say to you, Unless ye be regenerated by living water into the name of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven. Wherefore approach. For there is there something that is merciful from the beginning, home upon the water, and rescues from the future punishment those who are baptized with the thrice blessed invocation, offering as gifts to God the good deeds of the baptized whenever they are done after their baptism. Wherefore flee to the waters, for this alone can quench the violence of fires. He who will not now come to it still bears the spirit of strife, on account of which he will not approach the living water for his own salvation." Pseudo-Clementines, Homily 11:26 (A.D. 221).

"The Church received from the Apostles the tradition of giving Baptism even to infants. For the Apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of divine mysteries, knew that there is in everyone the innate stains of sins, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit." Origen, Commentary on Romans, 5:9 (A.D. 244).


Of course, these are not the inspired Word of God, but they do provide commentary on God's Word by the first Christians who were clearly in a good position to know what the Apostles taught. Note how these Fathers used Scriptures to prove their positions, recognizing that God was prefiguring Baptism even in the OT. I would highly recommend reading the Fathers, since they open the door in so many ways to the heart of the Scriptures, which is Jesus Christ Himself.

Regards

 

[duval]

TOM pleasegive attention to my post that obedience and the confession that Jesus is the Christ are all involved together in water baptism as seen in the case of the eunuch in Acts 8.

 

[Imagican]

You would contend, (due to what you havre been TAUGHT to believe), that they ARE the SAME. Problem is, the Bible offers the distinction in NUMEROUS places. Do you truly understand WHAT; 'a better way' MEANS?

You are confused. You think water baptism ONLY refers to John's baptism. Clearly, the Apostles ALSO baptized with water... AND THE SPIRIT. Where do you find in the Scriptures that water was "withheld" once they received the Spirit?

Not at all. I don't think confusion plays any part in my understanding. The apostles surely did Baptize as THEY were commanded. I simply recognize the TRUTH in that the apostles were commanded to do MANY things in their time. The difference is that you don't realize that the apostles were 'for a time' and that time has past. While there are certainly those today and yesterday that have 'pretended' to be apostles, the truth is that when the apostolic era ended, so did the NEED for apostles. The apostles were assigned to BEGIN the Church, not to maintain it. We have their words today to use to discern the TRUTH as to the teachings of 'churches'.

I have used Scriptures over and over. If you cannot see that, the problem is yours. I have cited Scriptures on numerous occasions. John 3:5 tells us that to be born again, from above, one must be born of water AND the Spirit. The Apostles were commanded to BAPTIZE. How? With water. And God baptizes with the Spirit at the same time the Church baptizes with water. Read the Acts of the Apostles, chapters 9-10 and you'll find several examples. Sprinkled throughout the NT, you'll find there is a distinction between John's water-only baptism and the Apostles' water and the Spirit baptism.

I am not the one that has accused you of 'not' using scripture.

But scripture CAN be used incorrectly to prove points by those that have LEARNED how to manipulate them for their own purposes. Scriptures also state that all one NEED do is 'confess' Christ as their Savior. It also states that belief itself is able to save. Faith. But you choose one to be of MORE import than the other. Or that in order to HAVE faith, one must follow the teachings of men.

Why are you being obtuse? We aren't discussing water-only baptism of John. Using water in baptism does not necessarily indicate a water-only baptism in the mode of John's.

Nor does a 'sinner today' dunking another sinner offer anything guaranteed as you would have us believe. With or without Baptism in water, the love offered to God and each other goes MUCH further in an adherance to the commandments than ANY physical ritual we can produce or participate in

Or do you think Jesus and John's baptism are equal, both being ordinances? Did the baptism that Jesus commanded His followers to conduct with Matthew 28:19 a mere ordinance?

Not at all. And I'm glad you brough it up. For earlier you stated there is but ONE Baptism. Yet here you offer admission that there have been MORE than one. Christ commanded the Apostles to Baptize. I have yet to find ONE statement that "I" am to Baptize in HIs name. Your biggest obtacle is buying into beliefs of men created in order to CONTROL 'religion'. I have not followed such a path.

I will stop here and await your answer. A quick perusal of the rest of your post is more of the same Imagican rhetoric on how you are right and everyone else is wrong, the same old "me vs the religions of man" baloney, as if we are to believe God speaks to you directly and blinds everyone else...

Regards

Fran, we've been through this before. If my memory serves me correctly, I seem to remember that those that INSISTED, in the beginning, that one MUST be Baptized in water, after much discussion, were FORCED to recant and openly admit that God IS able to DO what He CHOOSES to do regardless of the teachings of 'churches'. Regardless of water or ANYTHING ELSE. Once again, my scenario of the 'man on the deserted island' COMPLETELY negates what YOU would teach as MANDATORY.

There was a time when things were of NECESSITY, different than they are today. Christ chose a mere TWELVE indivuals to START His Church, (establish the body of believers). No slight task for a thousand men yet He chose a mere 12, (and one of them was of the devil). And for this purpose, these individuals, (they that that REMAINED faithful), were given the TOOLS that they needed to form ENOUGH of a stable foundation to be built upon, (to carry on).

We today are bound by FAITH, not our ability to heal others or raise the dead. Those deeds have ALREADY served their purpose and ours is but to BELIEVE. Ours is to have faith that these events happened and were inspired by God.

I have openly admitted over and over again that Baptism may well be a means to strengthen one's faith. But create it or a mandatory impliment of it? Hardly. The degree in significance that the churches have placed upon it is for THEIR benefit, not mine. This is obvious in their teachings pertaining to it, (and the beliefs of those that have bought into their teachings).

Christ stated OPENLY that ALL that has been offered mankind was for but ONE reason and purpose. For those that believe otherwise, they have obviously 'missed the boat' and STiLL have need of a 'teacher', (the laws of the Hebrews/Jews, and ordinaces set down by men).

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Tomlane]

One thing people miss, Christ only baptizes with fire and spirit.

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Matthew 3:11

Its so ludicrous for anyone to attach symbolism, or salvation to baptism that stood for repentance only. That is adding to God's word and that makes it a sin.

And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
Romans 14:23

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 10:17

Yes water baptism was for Jews only and the way its done today is a sin and is not of faith but is an act done with the flesh and God tells us not to have any confidence in the flesh.

For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
Philippians 3:3

Not once in scripture is it recorded that Christ ever personally water baptized anyone.

So why the big deal about water when everyone should be seeking Christ's spiritual baptism? The answer is the god of this world wants us to get our eyes off of Christ and onto our miserable sinful flesh. We worship God in spirit.

For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
Philippians 3:3

 

[Tomlane]

One thing people miss, Christ only baptizes with fire and spirit.

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Matthew 3:11

Its so ludicrous for anyone to attach symbolism, or salvation to baptism that represents repentance only. That is adding to God's word and that makes it a sin.

And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
Romans 14:23

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 10:17

Yes water baptism was for Jews only and the way its done today is a sin and is not of faith but is an act done with the flesh and God tells us not to have any confidence in the flesh.

For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
Philippians 3:3

Not once in scripture is it recorded that Christ ever personally water baptized anyone.

So why the big deal about water when everyone should be seeking Christ's spiritual baptism? The answer is; the god of this world wants us to get our eyes off of Christ and onto our miserable sinful flesh. We worship God in spirit.

For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
Philippians 3:3

And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Ephesians 4:23

Not once does God tell us to become closer to him spiritually with our flesh bur rather putting off of the flesh and we worth God in spirit and in truth. {Ephesians 4:24  And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.} That sure is not symbolic. God is worshiped from His word and Paul gives us the instructions for this present time of the gentiles and our instructions are not given from not Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, but rather those scriptures are for our learning.

Romans 15:4  For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

Believers today are to nourish the inner man with the word of God and not with symbolism or water with sinful flesh

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Romans 8:3

That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
Ephesians 3:16

Ephesians 2:15  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Ephesians 4:24  And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Realistically there is no way anyone can water baptize the new man that is already righteous. You can only feed it with the word of God and you sure can't baptize it as it is an established fact and you can't add to that. Man's fleshly act of immersion only gets the flesh wet. It also sends a message that what God has already done for us is not good enough and we have to add to it. What a lie by the god of this world.

Tomlane

 

[francisdesales]

One thing people miss, Christ only baptizes with fire and spirit.

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Matthew 3:11

My persistent friend, I ask you to open your mind and heart to this, as I tire of this repetition.

If I may, please consider that Christ NEVER said His baptisms were ONLY with fire and spirit. The English language doesn't require that the above verse to be interpreted to rule out EVERYTHING BUT fire and spirit. It merely focuses on the DIFFERENCE between John and Jesus' baptisms. The former AND the later include water. BUT the later includes something more: Fire and Spirit.

In summary, the bible never says that Christian baptisms are by fire and spirit alone. Quite the opposite, as I have already cited and you have promptly ignored. Such obtuseness is akin to the Pharisees, who also thought they were beyond the teachings of Christ.

Baptism has no meaning WITHOUT the water, since the definition IS a dunking in water...

Its so ludicrous for anyone to attach symbolism, or salvation to baptism that stood for repentance only. That is adding to God's word and that makes it a sin.

WHY is it ludicrous? God has chosen to act this way THROUGHOUT man's history! Thus, the offering of blood, for example. The washing of hands and pots. The abstinence from particular foods. All of these are outward symbols of inner intent. In the beginning of revelation, God commanded these things of His people to prepare themselves for TRUE worship, worship in Spirit. Christians CONTINUE to use signs and symbols to draw men to Christ, since symbolism is powerful motivators. A picture or action is worth a thousand words. The symbolism has meaning.

For example, the hovering of the Spirit above the waters at creation - they prefigure the Spirit hovering over the waters of the baptismal font just as a NEW creation is being brought forth.

The floods of Noah's time. They bring out the destructive capacity of water and they prefigure the destructive power of Baptism over the sinful nature of man, just as evil men were destroyed during the flood.

The Exodus of the Jews, God's People, from the land of slavery, is a prefigurement of Baptism. Again, God's People are washed from the slavery (of sin) and the way to the Promised Land is opened to them (as in the OT).

I have already mentioned Namaan and his washing that removed his disease. In the spiritual realm, sin is a disease that we are washed of by the waters of baptism and the Spirit of God.

I could go on, but as you should be able to see, the OT was written for OUR (Christian) sake to teach us about Christ and how the OT prefigured or anticipated what God would bring to fulfillment in the New Covenant.

And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. Romans 14:23

Naturally, Tomlane, you are taking this citation out of context. This is talking about refraining from eating certain foods, a Jewish custom, and whether it was sinful to scandalize other, weaker Christians.

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.Romans 10:17

Yes, not from reading, but from hearing God's Word. What is interesting is that commentators see this section as a baptismal formula, words said during the rite. In addition to the water, we also proclaim (or our proxy, if infants) our belief in God, opposition to Satan, and beliefs in the teachings of the Church.

Yes water baptism was for Jews only and the way its done today is a sin and is not of faith but is an act done with the flesh and God tells us not to have any confidence in the flesh.

You have yet to prove that. Merely repeating it without any sort of Scriptural evidence is unconvincing. That is why your preaching is hollow to the discerning Christian. Not only does it fly in the face with a primary teaching once given, your point is not even backed by Scriptures. Thus, it is to be refuted over and over again.

As an aside, again, things of the flesh refer to being wedded to things of the world VS. things of God. Or do you also deny the Flesh of our Lord and Savior and have no confidence in it? Clearly, Paul was not saying that he had no confidence in the flesh in THAT way, but things that satisfied the flesh, money, things, pride, etc...

Not once in scripture is it recorded that Christ ever personally water baptized anyone.

This is inconsequential (and not accurate, according to Scriptures) since the Spirit would NOT be poured out until AFTER Christ returned to the Father. Only THEN would the Advocate be sent. Any baptisms performed by Christ BEFORE the Spirit came were of the nature of John's baptisms to prepare them for the Christian baptisms.

So why the big deal about water when everyone should be seeking Christ's spiritual baptism? The answer is the god of this world wants us to get our eyes off of Christ and onto our miserable sinful flesh. We worship God in spirit.

You again present a false dichotomy that NO Christian maintains. NO ONE, as far as I know, seeks after water baptism WITHOUT the Spirit!!! Again, your arguments have no force.

It is understood that when Christ baptizes through His Body, the Church, it is with water AND the Spirit. Water alone is of no value. I have said this before - and if you cannot understand this by now, it is either extreme obtuseness or satan is blindling you from understanding such simplicity.

Regards

 

[Imagican]

Without going through the entire post, Fran, allow me to offer this:

All that you mention, the blood, the washing of hands, the ten commandments themselves, ALL of these were for GUIDANCE. They were a 'teacher'. And meant for ONE purpose that seems to STILL be lost on most.

The ordinances that you suggest we are bound to are NO LONGER able to bind, (unless you CHOOSE to be bound to them). Paul makes this PERFECTLY clear in his writtings. He even goes a step further and explains how DANGEROUS it was for those to CONTINUE in their practice. The biggest REASON that the other apostles refused to accept him was that THEY were convinced in a continuation of such ordinances and utterly refused to accept the truth. But eventually THEY DID.

I'm not here to support or deny ANYTHING so far as this debate is concerned. Whether or not Baptism was for the Jews ONLY I will not debate. But that it has little to do with TRUE Salvation I will UTTERLY defend. Only in the minds and hearts of those that 'DESIRE A SIGN' would anything such as 'water Baptism' be accepted and adhered to. And we ALL know what Christ said about that.........

There are those that believe that they see the face of Christ on loaves of bread. There are others that 'claim' to have seen statues 'cry blood'. And even those that bow to such and pray to them. For these, perhaps there is an inherent NEED for signs to the point that they create such in their minds and hearts. Personally, I believe that these are following 'something other than' the One True God and Father of our Savior: Jesus Christ. That they 'say' that they follow God or believe in Christ has little bearing on anything other than the 'words' that they choose to use in reference to their diverse religions.

While what we DO will certainly BE transformed upon the acceptance of God through His Son, NOTHING we can outwardly DO is able to bring about 'rebirth'. So, believe what you will and teach what you will but the truth is that John himself offered that there was a Baptism coming that was greater than that he had to offer.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

The ordinances that you suggest we are bound to are NO LONGER able to bind, (unless you CHOOSE to be bound to them).

The ordinances we are bound to are those promulgated by the same authority that has been given to "bind and loosen", and in addition, accepted by God in heaven. Christians are bound to Christian ordinances. Jews are bound to Jewish ordinances. Sectarians of no community are bound to themselves and their understanding of things. As such, your words overlook what you bind yourself to. For example, you bind yourself to not having pictures of Jesus Christ.

Paul makes this PERFECTLY clear in his writtings. He even goes a step further and explains how DANGEROUS it was for those to CONTINUE in their practice.

Paul says we as Christians are no longer bound to JEWISH customs and practices, not Christian ones. You are mistaken and forget that Paul HIMSELF binds his communities to HIS teachings, which he claims come from God. He passes on the traditions given to him and binds his communities to that particular interpretation.

The biggest REASON that the other apostles refused to accept him was that THEY were convinced in a continuation of such ordinances and utterly refused to accept the truth. But eventually THEY DID.

Which of the Apostles of Christ did not accept Paul? Perhaps the Jews did not accept Paul, but the Apostles of Christ agreed with Peter and Paul in that no Gentile was bound to Jewish practices, such as circumcision, in Acts 15. Some customs were retained for the sake of not scandalizing particular Jewish/Christians, but alone or outside of such mixed company, the Christian could eat whatever he wanted.

I'm not here to support or deny ANYTHING so far as this debate is concerned. Whether or not Baptism was for the Jews ONLY I will not debate.

That's good, because the Bible never states that Baptism was only for the Jews! You would again be merely interjecting your own customs and traditions (the tradition of ignoring the Church of Christ) into the mix, which are clearly against what Scriptures relate.

But that it has little to do with TRUE Salvation I will UTTERLY defend. Only in the minds and hearts of those that 'DESIRE A SIGN' would anything such as 'water Baptism' be accepted and adhered to. And we ALL know what Christ said about that.........

The wind blows where it wills, and you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. Such is the Spirit that comes. The visible sign of baptism, water, allows men to know that the Spirit has indeed come. We don't need to baptize over and over because we are unsure whether the Spirit came or not, such as people who follow your line of thought do. We KNOW that the Spirit has come when the Church, the Body of Christ, pours water and the Spirit upon us.

Your allusion to Jesus giving a sign to the Pharisees is out of context and doesn't apply. The Pharisees WERE given signs. Miracles and fulfillment of Scriptures. They refused to believe DESPITE the signs given. John calls these miracles SIGNS. Jesus refused to make a more obvious and heavenly sign because the Pharisees wouldn't have believed anyway. They did not have true faith. Thus, He gave them the sign of Jonah and left it at that.

Those who believe that the Spirit works invisibly behind the visible signs DO have faith. Big difference.

There are those that believe that they see the face of Christ on loaves of bread. There are others that 'claim' to have seen statues 'cry blood'. And even those that bow to such and pray to them. For these, perhaps there is an inherent NEED for signs to the point that they create such in their minds and hearts.

I am not about to comment on the state of mind of those who make such claims, nor is it impossible that God Himself has NOT presented Himself in such fashion privately. The fact that some are superstituous about things divine or numinous does not denigrate the efficaciousness of signs and symbols, since WE are creatures of our five senses. Such signs powerfully move our mental and spiritual self towards God in ways that cannot be done in any other way.

Personally, I believe that these are following 'something other than' the One True God and Father of our Savior: Jesus Christ. That they 'say' that they follow God or believe in Christ has little bearing on anything other than the 'words' that they choose to use in reference to their diverse religions.

You would fall into the same boat, since NO ONE has seen God, nor is God entirely wrapped up in a concept of the intellect. We can not ascertain entirely God or His attributes. Thus, you are no different from anyone else. You call to mind your own personal picture of God in your mind, not the actual God Himself. Whether HE HIMSELF reveals ANYTHING to you is subject to interpretation, since men are self-delusional on such matters. One can SWEAR that God is speaking to them, and even feed Kool-Aid to their followers with poison in it because "God told them to"...

Read the great mystics of Christianity, and you will find we know God by what is NOT God, rather than KNOWING Him as He is.

While what we DO will certainly BE transformed upon the acceptance of God through His Son, NOTHING we can outwardly DO is able to bring about 'rebirth'. So, believe what you will and teach what you will but the truth is that John himself offered that there was a Baptism coming that was greater than that he had to offer.

That is not what Scriptures say. Throughout the NT, Christians are told that people seek out baptism. People are told to seek baptism. And Christ COMMANDED that His followers baptize. CLEARLY, the Apostles do not send the Holy Spirit!!! Their role is the pouring of water and the faith in Christ's promise that He WOULD send the Advocate WHEN the rite of baptism was performed. That is why the first Christians were INSISTENT that someone was water baptized along with their Spirit baptism, combined into one event.

Regards

 

[duval]

TOM LANE, please don't forget to answer my post.

There is only ONE baptism, Eph.4. That means one at a time. There cannot be fire baptism and spirit baptism simultanesly.

I believe fire baptism to be hell, yet future. Spirit baptislm was a promise, occured only twice (once to the Jew, once to the gentile), and has been fulfilled. John's baptism is no longer valid, leaving only water baptism which lasts until the end of the world.

 

[Tomlane]

Hi Duval, you stated:

There is only ONE baptism, Eph.4. That means one at a time. There cannot be fire baptism and spirit baptism simultanesly.

I partially agree Duval, only I have never found where a Gentile was ever had water baptism forced upon them and they wanted to adhere to Judaism then that person was known as a proselyte. Also don't we have fire or spiritual baptism today? Hell or to be with the Lord?

Do you have scripture showing where water was forced upon Gentiles? I believe spirit baptism began at Pentecost and the gentiles were added in around Acts 10 or there about and now Jew and Gentile are one in christ now that the law and its ordinances have been abolished and we are in the time of the Gentile.

Ephesians 2:15  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

God would have broken his own laws had he made Jew and gentile a new creation if he hadn't nailed the law to His cross and make it complete. So why are people trying to symbolize and complete a law that is no longer imposed any anyone? As Paul said they are fed with the milk of the word and that could be part of the reason for this vast misunderstanding Satan has created.

Fire baptism is here I think for the unsaved since the word baptize means, put into or immerse so when a soul is cast into hell, I would think that would be immersion right there. Actually the unsaved will have two baptisms of fire. Hell first then cast into the lake of fire or bottomless pit. What to you think Duval?
God bless, Tomlane

 

[Free]

Care to address the Scriptures I posted Tomlane?

 

[francisdesales]

...Chapter 7: Now about baptism: this is how to baptize. Give public instruction on all these points, and then "baptize" in running water, "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." If you do not have running water, baptize in some other. If you cannot in cold, then in warm. If you have neither, then pour water on the head three times "in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." Before the baptism, moreover, the one who baptizes and the one being baptized must fast, and any others who can. And you must tell the one being baptized to fast for one or two days beforehand.

Didache, c.70-100 AD.

The first Christians in action... The same ones willingly going to the lions for the name of Christ.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

...Baptism Instituted in Place of Sacrifices.

"But when the time began to draw near that what was wanting in the Mosaic institutions should be supplied, as we have said, and that the Prophet should appear, of whom he had foretold that He should warn them by the mercy of God to cease from sacrificing; lest haply they might suppose that on the cessation of sacrifice there was no remission of sins for them, He instituted baptism by water amongst them, in which they might be absolved from all their sins on the invocation of His name, and for the future, following a perfect life, might abide in immortality, being purified not by the blood of beasts, but by the purification of the Wisdom of God. Recognitions, Clement I, c. 90 AD.

The first Christians in action... The same ones willingly going to the lions for the name of Christ.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

CHAPTER XIV -- RIGHTEOUSNESS IS NOT PLACED IN JEWISH RITES, BUT IN THE CONVERSION OF THE HEART GIVEN IN BAPTISM BY CHRIST.

"By reason, therefore, of this laver of repentance and knowledge of God, which has been ordained on account of the transgression of God's people, as Isaiah cries, we have believed, and testify that that very baptism which he announced is alone able to purify those who have repented; and this is the water of life. But the cisterns which you have dug for yourselves are broken and profitless to you. For what is the use of that baptism which cleanses the flesh and body alone? Baptize the soul from wrath and from covetousness, from envy, and from hatred; and, lo! the body is pure..."

Dialogue with Trypho, Justin the Martyr, c. 150 AD.

And finally:

Chapter LXI --- CHRISTIAN BAPTISM

I will also relate the manner in which we dedicated ourselves to God when we had been made new through Christ; lest, if we omit this, we seem to be unfair in the explanation we are making. As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we praying and fasting with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, Unless you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. (John 3:5) Now, that it is impossible for those who have once been born to enter into their mothers' wombs, is manifest to all. And how those who have sinned and repent shall escape their sins, is declared by Esaias the prophet, as I wrote above; he thus speaks: Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from your souls; learn to do well; judge the fatherless, and plead for the widow: and come and let us reason together, says the Lord. And though your sins be as scarlet, I will make them white like wool; and though they be as crimson, I will make them white as snow. But if you refuse and rebel, the sword shall devour you: for the mouth of the Lord has spoken it. (Isaiah 1:16-20)

And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; he who leads to the laver the person that is to be washed calling him by this name alone. For no one can utter the name of the ineffable God; and if any one dare to say that there is a name, he raves with a hopeless madness. And this washing is called illumination, because they who learn these things are illuminated in their understandings. And in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name of the Holy Ghost, who through the prophets foretold all things about Jesus, he who is illuminated is washed.

Justin the Martyr, First Apology, c. 150 AD

This pretty much says it all. This is a Christian writing to the Roman Emperor, explaining what Christians do. The first Christians were taught that to enter the Kingdom, they must be baptized with water and the Spirit. This teaching continues to this very day. Only sectarians and the proud continue to ignore the Scriptural and historical evidence.


Regards

 

[Imagican]

The ordinances that you suggest we are bound to are NO LONGER able to bind, (unless you CHOOSE to be bound to them).

The ordinances we are bound to are those promulgated by the same authority that has been given to "bind and loosen", and in addition, accepted by God in heaven. Christians are bound to Christian ordinances. Jews are bound to Jewish ordinances. Sectarians of no community are bound to themselves and their understanding of things. As such, your words overlook what you bind yourself to. For example, you bind yourself to not having pictures of Jesus Christ.

Since I know of ONLY one branch of Christianity that teaches such, you, once again, place me in a position to find myself UNABLE to offer a PROPER answer. Suffice is to say, I don't believe what YOU believe.

I CANNOT have pictures of Christ for I know NOT what Christ looked like. I can't have pictures of God either for He IS Spirit, and being such, is not ABLE to be depicted in the Flesh.

Paul makes this PERFECTLY clear in his writtings. He even goes a step further and explains how DANGEROUS it was for those to CONTINUE in their practice.

Paul says we as Christians are no longer bound to JEWISH customs and practices, not Christian ones. You are mistaken and forget that Paul HIMSELF binds his communities to HIS teachings, which he claims come from God. He passes on the traditions given to him and binds his communities to that particular interpretation.

And in this he states that He CAN be all things to ALL men so that he may save a few. He also states that NOTHING is forbidden him. He also tells us NOT to judge others, and he continually warns those that he teaches NOT to return to the place that they were BEFORE. To GROW UP and not remain children in Christ. All these things he states to show that there is MORE to following Christ than 'warm fuzzies' and 'following laws'. And another thing that he mentions is taking the Lords supper in context as to righteusness. Never does he offer that the supper is to be LED by those wearing goofy looking robes that are pretending to BE Christ Himself.

The biggest REASON that the other apostles refused to accept him was that THEY were convinced in a continuation of such ordinances and utterly refused to accept the truth. But eventually THEY DID.

Which of the Apostles of Christ did not accept Paul? Perhaps the Jews did not accept Paul, but the Apostles of Christ agreed with Peter and Paul in that no Gentile was bound to Jewish practices, such as circumcision, in Acts 15. Some customs were retained for the sake of not scandalizing particular Jewish/Christians, but alone or outside of such mixed company, the Christian could eat whatever he wanted.

ONLY after receiving a vision directly from God did Peter accept that the Gentiles were offered the same forgiveness as the Jews. Peter still believed in BEING a Jew by ordinance until Paul was able to convince him that this was NOT condusive to a deeper relationship. And even then, after the apostles took Paul in, Paul separated himself from the Jews and struck out to spread his message to the Gentiles.

I'm not here to support or deny ANYTHING so far as this debate is concerned. Whether or not Baptism was for the Jews ONLY I will not debate.

That's good, because the Bible never states that Baptism was only for the Jews! You would again be merely interjecting your own customs and traditions (the tradition of ignoring the Church of Christ) into the mix, which are clearly against what Scriptures relate.

I have never stated such. I have no such customs for I do NOT follow 'ritual' for the SAKE of 'ritual'.

But that it has little to do with TRUE Salvation I will UTTERLY defend. Only in the minds and hearts of those that 'DESIRE A SIGN' would anything such as 'water Baptism' be accepted and adhered to. And we ALL know what Christ said about that.........

The wind blows where it wills, and you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. Such is the Spirit that comes. The visible sign of baptism, water, allows men to know that the Spirit has indeed come. We don't need to baptize over and over because we are unsure whether the Spirit came or not, such as people who follow your line of thought do. We KNOW that the Spirit has come when the Church, the Body of Christ, pours water and the Spirit upon us.

Fran, HOW do you KNOW this? If your answer is; by faith, then I have the same to offer in regards to the lack of such being the case. I don't believe that water Baptism is NECESSARY to start with, so why would I offer that it need be done MORE than once. I was simply offering observation. And once again, HOW do you KNOW?

IN the past, did those that chose to burn people alive believe that the Spirit had come when the Chruch, the Body of Christ, (as you would claim), poured water and the Spirit upon them? That it was The Spirit that GUIDED them in their practices of torture and murder?

Your allusion to Jesus giving a sign to the Pharisees is out of context and doesn't apply. The Pharisees WERE given signs. Miracles and fulfillment of Scriptures. They refused to believe DESPITE the signs given. John calls these miracles SIGNS. Jesus refused to make a more obvious and heavenly sign because the Pharisees wouldn't have believed anyway. They did not have true faith. Thus, He gave them the sign of Jonah and left it at that.

Those who believe that the Spirit works invisibly behind the visible signs DO have faith. Big difference.

I don't doubt this in the least, that they have faith. But the question is concerning the validity of 'WHAT' they believe. The NEED for a sign is NOT taken out of context. For some, even today, insist on 'seeing signs' in order to feel content in their religion. Hence, the reason for the next quote:

There are those that believe that they see the face of Christ on loaves of bread. There are others that 'claim' to have seen statues 'cry blood'. And even those that bow to such and pray to them. For these, perhaps there is an inherent NEED for signs to the point that they create such in their minds and hearts.

I am not about to comment on the state of mind of those who make such claims, nor is it impossible that God Himself has NOT presented Himself in such fashion privately. The fact that some are superstituous about things divine or numinous does not denigrate the efficaciousness of signs and symbols, since WE are creatures of our five senses. Such signs powerfully move our mental and spiritual self towards God in ways that cannot be done in any other way.

And the same could be said for those that claim to believe in aliens and Big Foot and Nessy. But the truth is, there WiLL be those that CHOOSE to follow lies, and for these, God Himself will offer STRONG DELUSION so that they will BELIEVE the lies. Self delusion, while one is most certainly able to be faithful in, has little bearing on truth except in their OWN minds and their OWN hearts.

Personally, I believe that these are following 'something other than' the One True God and Father of our Savior: Jesus Christ. That they 'say' that they follow God or believe in Christ has little bearing on anything other than the 'words' that they choose to use in reference to their diverse religions.

You would fall into the same boat, since NO ONE has seen God, nor is God entirely wrapped up in a concept of the intellect. We can not ascertain entirely God or His attributes. Thus, you are no different from anyone else. You call to mind your own personal picture of God in your mind, not the actual God Himself. Whether HE HIMSELF reveals ANYTHING to you is subject to interpretation, since men are self-delusional on such matters. One can SWEAR that God is speaking to them, and even feed Kool-Aid to their followers with poison in it because "God told them to"...

Firstly, I have NO personal picture of God in my mind. While to many my understanding may indeed be 'wrong', but only for the fact that they have chosen to be led of men rather than through Spirit.

I think here that i MUST have a deeper understanding than what you have offered. For YOU profess a belief that such as James Jones BELIEVED that God told him to poison his followers. I believe that Jimbo was following a DIFFEFRENT God and was completely and utterly aware of the difference. He was not 'blindly following a false god', he was following the god that he CHOSE to follow and doing it willingly. Much like MANY leaders fo the past and present, they desire what they desire and are willing to DO what they MUST in order to obtain their desires. For the Bible is clear to those that KNOW God and there is NO way that one is able to follow false Gods if the truth has been revealed to them.

So, either Jimbo had NEVER read The Word, or he was well aware of the convictions of The Spirit and chose to follow something else regardless.

Read the great mystics of Christianity, and you will find we know God by what is NOT God, rather than KNOWING Him as He is.

I'm not much into 'mystics', or 'phychics', or 'palm readers' so I'll pass.

While what we DO will certainly BE transformed upon the acceptance of God through His Son, NOTHING we can outwardly DO is able to bring about 'rebirth'. So, believe what you will and teach what you will but the truth is that John himself offered that there was a Baptism coming that was greater than that he had to offer.

That is not what Scriptures say. Throughout the NT, Christians are told that people seek out baptism. People are told to seek baptism. And Christ COMMANDED that His followers baptize. CLEARLY, the Apostles do not send the Holy Spirit!!! Their role is the pouring of water and the faith in Christ's promise that He WOULD send the Advocate WHEN the rite of baptism was performed. That is why the first Christians were INSISTENT that someone was water baptized along with their Spirit baptism, combined into one event.

So you say. But Fran, what about those that are saved without water Baptism? That throws a wrench in your whole structure of belief. I personally believe that there is Baptism in Spirit WITHOUT water. Heck, the ability exists for this event to happen without the presence of another living soul. And OH, while this thought is present: Can one Baptize themselves in water?

Regards

Voodoo, mumbo jumbo has NOTHING but roots in 'other religions'. Some have certainly been 'offshoots' of Christianity but mostly have been 'added to'. We can see many examples of the combining of 'different beliefs' and 'customs' into versions of Christianity. I believe these to be 'false religions'. God wants for us to understand certain things and without an understanding of these things, one cannot even KNOW Him. And if one does not know Him and LOVE Him, then they certainly are not able to worship Him in TRUTH. And once one begins to follow that which is NOT the 'True God', then they are ONLY able to grow deeper and deeper bonds to 'something else'.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

Imagican,

Can you reformat your most recent post here? I cannot follow it.

Thanks

 

[duval]

Hi TOMLANE

You use the expression "forced baptism". I am unaware that scripture teaches or infers a forced baptism upon any, Jew or gentile. Of course some religions today DO "force" what they call baptism upon infants by sprinkling or pouring whcih is not baptism.

If you are saying that when a gentile today submits to baptism he becomes a spiritual jew then you and I have some agreement. However, he does not become a part of spiritual Israel UNTIL AFTER baptism.

No, I do not believe there is a spiritual baptism today. Fire baptism will be administered by Jesus following the judgemnt, Mt.25:41.

God bless

 

[Free]

Still waiting Tomlane for your rebuttal of the Scriptures I posted. First you complain because I wasn't using any, then when I post some you don't respond.