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Reasons Why Water Baptism is not for today

  • Thread starter Thread starter Tomlane
  • Start date Start date
Hi Duval, if there is no spiritual baptism today then one of three things have occurred or perhaps thre are in affect.

One-John the baptist was in error in when he said Christ will baptize with spirit and fire or John lied.

Two- Christ can't baptize with spirit because he can't and won't or perhaps he is dead or never existed.

Three- You Duval are in serious error.

Tomlane
 
Hi TOMLANE
No Tom, John the baqptist did not lie nor was he in error when he said Jesus would baptize with fire and the Holy Spirit. John told the TRUTH. I gave you Matt.25:41. Following the judgement Jesus will so baptioze with fire. Holy Spirit baptism has already occured and Jesus administered it: Jn.14:26; Jn.16:13,14. To His apostles Jesus reminded them of John's statement in Acts1:4-5 and vs. 8. Following that He ascended to heaven. The fulfillment of all this is in Acts 2. See vs.1-4. In Acts 10 and 11 the household of Cornelius ( to prove to the Jew that the Gentlle was accepted) the baptism of the Spirit occured again, Acts 10:44-47; Acts 11:15-17. There is no record of the baptism of the Holy Spirit occuring again.

Of your 3rd allegation I may be in error or you may be in error for we are human, but ONE thing is for sure WE BOTH CAN'T BE RIGHT! The Bible is always right.
 
Duval, I have been spiritually baptized so God must still be in business and I now of others who have been as well.

By the way, I have never been water baptized either or have I done communion, the Sabbath, or tithing or do I belong to any sectarian church. But I do belong to the Church that is mentioned in Acts 2:47 by the Christ's love for me and his endless grace. I've had it all given to me and I only had to believe.

And the scripture is taught to me by the Holy Spirit that is in me.

Tomlane
 
duval said:
Hi TOMLANE
No Tom, John the baqptist did not lie nor was he in error when he said Jesus would baptize with fire and the Holy Spirit. John told the TRUTH. I gave you Matt.25:41. Following the judgement Jesus will so baptioze with fire. Holy Spirit baptism has already occured and Jesus administered it: Jn.14:26; Jn.16:13,14. To His apostles Jesus reminded them of John's statement in Acts1:4-5 and vs. 8. Following that He ascended to heaven. The fulfillment of all this is in Acts 2. See vs.1-4. In Acts 10 and 11 the household of Cornelius ( to prove to the Jew that the Gentlle was accepted) the baptism of the Spirit occured again, Acts 10:44-47; Acts 11:15-17. There is no record of the baptism of the Holy Spirit occuring again.

Of your 3rd allegation I may be in error or you may be in error for we are human, but ONE thing is for sure WE BOTH CAN'T BE RIGHT! The Bible is always right.
Click to expand...

Hi Duval. If you say that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is not for today, what do you say it means to be 'born of the spirit'.
 
Tomlane said:
Duval, I have been spiritually baptized so God must still be in business and I now of others who have been as well.
Click to expand...

How do you know you are not just deluding yourself??? Seriously? Did the room light up and the heavens open to you and a dove flew to the top of your head??? Since satan can appear as an angel of light, how do you know you have not been duped?

Where is your evidence? Man does not save himself, God does. Thus, no matter how hard you wish it and think it, only God Himself baptizes. So how do you know you have been baptized from above, rather than just waking up one day and making the claim?

Tomlane said:
By the way, I have never been water baptized either or have I done communion, the Sabbath, or tithing or do I belong to any sectarian church. But I do belong to the Church that is mentioned in Acts 2:47 by the Christ's love for me and his endless grace. I've had it all given to me and I only had to believe.
Click to expand...

No, you don't. ALL of those were water baptized and you just said you haven't. Thus, you cannot belong to that same community. Anyone can say it, but by your works, you are known.

Tomlane said:
And the scripture is taught to me by the Holy Spirit that is in me.
Click to expand...

Again, even satan can appear as an angel of light. Man is easily deluded into thinking his thoughts are God's thoughts. "Here, drink the Kool-Aid, God told me to teach that..." Sorry, the Spirit is not one of confusion. He does not teach you "A" and everyone else "B". The Holy Spirit cannot be responsible for what you believe and what the Church has taught for 2000 years at the same time, since they oppose each other. Either billions did NOT have the Spirit and YOU do, or the other way around... Considering people were baptizing with water and the Spirit in the first century at the command of Christ, people who were taught DIRECTLY by the Apostles, your position doesn't look too secure.

I think with that evidence, most would agree that the Spirit is NOT leading you in this matter.

Out of love for you and your soul, I feel compelled to warn you of the potential destruction of misinterpreting Scriptures and rejecting Christ's commands.

This is why it is better to rely on the Church on such matters, the pillar and foundation of the truth, rather than yourself, which is easily deluded - and you cannot even prove that the Spirit HAS come to you via some "internal desire".

Regards
 
Fran,

In the above post, my responses are bolded.

Blessings,

MEC
 
Duval,

Since we have a myriad of written instances of those who were Baptized with fire and Spirit, it would stand to reason that this is not a 'future event' from NOW, but a future event that the apostles waited upon and received upon Pentacost.

Blessings,

MEC
 
Fran,

Let me offer an answer to your question directed at Tom.

I KNOW that I have been Baptized of the Spirit for I have experienced the 'transformation' of my heart beyond my capacity to perform. Christ LIVES in my heart THROUGH The Spirit.

There have been wrought, changes in my life, that I KNOW came about 'through The Spirit'.

And there are times that I KNOW emphatically that it is The Spirit that offers me guidance and assurance beyond ANYTHING that any 'man' has to offer.

Does The Spirit manifest itself physically before me? Of course not, (it is S P I R I T). But I am well aware of the difference between SELF delusion and the manifestation of The Spirit in my life. We have been promised as much as well. What kind of Spirit would be UNRECOGNIZABLE to those that TRULY seek it and allow it into their lives? Only an impotent spirit.

The difference in what YOU believe and what I KNOW is to be found in the teaching that one is to rely on the church for Salvation rather than God, His Son and the Holy Spirit. What I have been led to understand through a personal relationship is that our Salvation lies within OUR INDIVUAL RELATIONSHIP rather than 'someone elses'.

Once one is able to come to such an understanding, at this point is becomes utter apparent when the Spirit dwells within one's heart.

To YOU, this may well sound like rubbish. But that is the difference in what YOU believe and what I believe. And MOST of what I 'believe' I KNOW to BE true in my HEART.

Blessings,

MEC

And Fran, this 'Spiritual Baptism' did NOT take place upon my 'water Baptism', but MANY years later.

So you see, my offerings are NOT mere 'ramblings' or 'rhetoric' as you would lead others to believe, it is based on personal experience AND The Word. A winning combination in 'my book'. For there is MUCH contained within The Word that would have little if ANY meaning were it not for the WORDS being manifest in my heart and mind THOUGH The Spirit.
 
MEC said:
The difference in what YOU believe and what I KNOW is to be found in the teaching that one is to rely on the church for Salvation rather than God, His Son and the Holy Spirit. What I have been led to understand through a personal relationship is that our Salvation lies within OUR INDIVUAL RELATIONSHIP rather than 'someone elses'.
Click to expand...

Hey Mike, long time no see.

I just wanted to touch on something here, and I've bolded it for you. But before I touch on that, yes, our Individual Relationship is important, for everyone will be judged one by one, but community is also important and how you grow in your personal relationship will reflect on how you interact with the rest of the body.

Doesn't God use his Church for salvation? Didn't God Send Elijah to the starving widow in 1 Kings 17, and didn't God provide through Elijah food that saved the widow and her son? Be careful what your defining as salvation...

Baptism has always been a means of entering the Church... And the Church makes up the Body, where Christ is the head. So you see, you can't separate the body from the head, though a toe might say to a finger that they are move valuable... which of course wouldn't be true. ;)
 
Imagican said:
Fran,

Let me offer an answer to your question directed at Tom.
Click to expand...

I can see where this is going. Rather than continue and possibly scandalize you by questioning your "salvation" (which your response appears to believe that is what I am doing), I will not address your questions. I present the Word of God as-is, and it is not up to me to grill you and interrogate you on your level of union with the Spirit, if any. That is not my goal here.

The initial thread begins "why baptism is not for today". Mike, I did not start this thread, I am defending God's Word that states the opposite, and quite clearly. It is scandalous to Christians who try to follow God's Word and see Christ's own words that COMMAND us to be born from above by water and the Spirit TO ENTER the Kingdom of Heaven. Now, is God bound by this? No, we have discussed this. Ignorance does not prevent a person from entering heaven. Only willful disobedience to God's Word does - as Jesus states. And those who reject the Apostolic teachings are rejecting Christ and the One who sent Him. All Scriptures. It is my "calling", I feel, to destroy this notion of "water baptism is not for today". I am not posting the opposite, that one MUST receive water baptism "or else". Only your conscience can determine whether you are, indeed, disobeying Christ or not.

As such, the Holy Spirit must take over, and I will not be addressing anyone's personal walk or whether the Holy Spirit abides in them despite John 3:5 and rejecting this command. I do know from experience that man can be self-delusional, so I think one should take a long hard look at this before agreeing with the idea that "water baptism is not for today". Is God moving you to think that, or is it from you? Why would God command something - but hold those who are in disobedience to the command somehow free from it? Is there another way into the sheepfold besides Christ's Way? If so, let it be God's choice, not yours.

Regarding your comments on the Church and Christ, all I am going to say is that you again present a false dichotomy, separating the Head from the Body. Whether you realize it or not, the Church IS Christ in the world today. You cannot separate the Church from Christ. Who was Saul persecuting when Jesus stopped him on the way to Damascus? WHO? Did Jesus say "why do you persecute ME" or "why do you persecute my followers"? Christ has wedded Himself to His Church in a most intimate way. Why do you try to bring about divorce?

The Bible is clear on this. We can debate the verses, if you like.

Regards
 
TOMLANE I fear you are being too subjective.Its not what we feel but what the scriptiure teaches. Faith comes by hearing the word of God, Rom.10:17
 
Hi Mutzein
Hi Mutzrein
Thank you for your question of Jn.3:5.
Please note the passage does NOT say we are born of water and the baptism of the Holy Spirit but rather of the "water and of the Spirit."
Holy Spirit baptism was a PROMISE not a COMMAND.
Since Holy Spirit baptism occured but twice (Acts 2 and 11and 12) if one must be baptized of the Holy Spirit to be saved then only the apostles on Pentecost (Acts 2) and Cornelius' household could be saved which would be nonsense.
Faith comes by hearing the word of God, Rom.10:17. Jesus told His apostles the Holy Spirit would guide them into all truth. JN.14:26 and Jn.16:13. This began to be fulfilled in Acts 2 when the apostles began to speak as the Spirit gave them utterance. The Holy Spirit, which the apostles received in the baptismal measure guided them into all truth and the writing of the NT. Please read I Pet.1:22-26 in this regard as it pieces together the Spirit, the word of God and being born again.
God bless
 
Hey Duval and Mutz,

Really quick, and I probably won't be back until Monday, but.

Do you believe there is a difference between being Justified by Faith and Saved by baptism? I know that this isn't the thread, but it seems like in your posts that salvation and justification are being used synonymously.

Cheers,
 
duval said:
Hi Mutzein
Hi Mutzrein
Thank you for your question of Jn.3:5.
Please note the passage does NOT say we are born of water and the baptism of the Holy Spirit but rather of the "water and of the Spirit."
Holy Spirit baptism was a PROMISE not a COMMAND.
Since Holy Spirit baptism occured but twice (Acts 2 and 11and 12) if one must be baptized of the Holy Spirit to be saved then only the apostles on Pentecost (Acts 2) and Cornelius' household could be saved which would be nonsense.
Faith comes by hearing the word of God, Rom.10:17. Jesus told His apostles the Holy Spirit would guide them into all truth. JN.14:26 and Jn.16:13. This began to be fulfilled in Acts 2 when the apostles began to speak as the Spirit gave them utterance. The Holy Spirit, which the apostles received in the baptismal measure guided them into all truth and the writing of the NT. Please read I Pet.1:22-26 in this regard as it pieces together the Spirit, the word of God and being born again.
God bless
Click to expand...

Scripture does say that to see or enter the kingdom of God man MUST be born of water AND be born of the Spirit. Being born of water I know to be natural birth – ie born of the flesh. Being born of the Spirit, is being born again. That is, when one is born of the Spirit he passes from death (the result of Adam’s sin) to life (made possible because Christ defeated sin and death, rose again and returned to the Father).

Up till this point no-one was born of the Spirit (except for Christ). Jesus said to the disciples that the spirit that was WITH them would be IN them because when he returned to the Father the Father would send the Spirit which would from that point on, dwell within them and endue with power. This event which many readily accept as the ‘baptism of the Holy Spirit’ is (to me) synonymous with being born again.

It is the Spirit which gives life. This is the ‘new birth’. This same Spirit which led the disciples into all truth, is to this day still being poured upon those who believe and leading them into all truth. I am testimony to this fact. In the same way that the disciples of old were baptised in the Spirit, so too am I . . . and many others with me.

Blessings
 
StoveBolts said:
Hey Duval and Mutz,

Really quick, and I probably won't be back until Monday, but.

Do you believe there is a difference between being Justified by Faith and Saved by baptism? I know that this isn't the thread, but it seems like in your posts that salvation and justification are being used synonymously.

Cheers,
Click to expand...

Hi StoveBolts

I don't see them as being synonymous. Water baptism is not necessary for salvation. Faith is.

Hope the weekend is going / went well.
Blessings
 
Tomlane,

You don't have me on ignore, do you? I am still waiting for your reply...
 
Nicodemus made the mistake in John 3 in that he too thought water meant the natural birth.
 
Hi IMAGICAN-

You wrote : "---we have a myriad of written instances of those who were Baptized with fire and Spirit--". Where are those "myriad of written instances"?
 
Hi STOVEBOLTS

I understand the Bible to teach that water baptism is essential to salvation and that it is a part of being justified by faith. In fact without baptism for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38) there can be no justification by faith.
 
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