Reasons Why Water Baptism is not for today

[francisdesales]

Scripture does say that to see or enter the kingdom of God man MUST be born of water AND be born of the Spirit.

No, it doesn't say that. You are dividing what Christ said. It says one must be born from above (one action) BY water and the Spirit. This is one act. Not "act one - water" and "act two - spirit", separated by many years. Nicodemus made that mistake and Christ corrected him. "What is flesh is flesh". He is not refering to things of the flesh, but the Spirit. Being born from above is clearly NOT refering to natural childbirth. And childbirth is NOT being born of water!

Being born of water I know to be natural birth – ie born of the flesh. Being born of the Spirit, is being born again.

Christ is ignoring the first birth of the flesh by His words 'what is flesh is flesh". In other words, "that is not what I am talking about". There is not a "rebirth", since we are only born ONCE from above - that is the whole point of the idea of original sin, being born WITHOUT God's Spirit.

The problem is the Greek adverb, that can be taken to mean "born again" or "born from above". Jesus corrects Nicodeumus misunderstanding, and by the context, it becomes clear He is speaking of being born from above, not again.

That is, when one is born of the Spirit he passes from death (the result of Adam’s sin) to life (made possible because Christ defeated sin and death, rose again and returned to the Father).

Yes, that is true, the womb and the tomb are different motifs of baptism.

Jesus said to the disciples that the spirit that was WITH them would be IN them because when he returned to the Father the Father would send the Spirit which would from that point on, dwell within them and endue with power. This event which many readily accept as the ‘baptism of the Holy Spirit’ is (to me) synonymous with being born again.

How can they be spiritually born again if the Spirit had not given birth to anyone, according to you. There is no "born again" in the spiritual world. It is "born from above" the first time.

Regards

 

[mutzrein]

duval & francisdesales

I realise that catholic tradition believes that being born of water is not physical birth. I don’t. The way I read it is this.

Nicodemus, having no concept of spiritual birth could only relate being ‘born again’ with the only birth he was aware of – natural birth. So when Jesus said you must be born again – he couldn’t fathom how this was possible – which is confirmed by his statement "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

So Jesus goes on to explain to him that there are two births. One is of water and one is of the Spirit. And then he leaves Nicodemus in no doubt as to what he is talking about. Flesh gives birth to flesh but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Now I realise that some don’t want to accept this because it denies a certain doctrine that many people cling to, but this is the way I see it. I haven’t been taught this. It is what I have always believed since reading it after coming to know Christ. And nothing that I have heard or experienced in the time since I was born again has persuaded me otherwise.

Blessings

 

[Imagican]

Hi IMAGICAN-

You wrote : "---we have a myriad of written instances of those who were Baptized with fire and Spirit--". Where are those "myriad of written instances"?

Acts 1 (King James Version)

Acts 1
1The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,

2Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

3To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

4And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

6When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

9And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

12Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

13And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.

14These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

15And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)

Firstly: Please note that verse five is worded in a way that is unmistakable. Note the word BUT and it's meaning becomes self explanatory.

Now, in answer to your question: Perhaps I worded my statement incorrectly. What I meant was that there were a myriad of peoples written of being Baptized through fire and Spirit.verse 15 states that there were about 120 persons present waiting on The Spirit. And here we have 120 persons Baptized through The Spirit at ONE TIME. While these may well have been Baptized previous in water, there is no mention of such being needed for their being Baptized through fire and Spirit.

Blessings.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Hi STOVEBOLTS

I understand the Bible to teach that water baptism is essential to salvation and that it is a part of being justified by faith. In fact without baptism for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38) there can be no justification by faith.

Duval,

Once again, a man involved in a shipwreck finds himself alone on an island. He has NO previous knowledge of God or Christ. One day, as he strolls upon the beach, he looks down and sees a book that has been washed ashore. He picks it up and begins to read. It is the Holy Bible. As he reads his heart is opened and he receives Christ into it. He dies on that island one day without ever seeing another living soul.

Do you NOT see that 'water Baptism' has no bearing on his FAITH? Or do you believe that the day this man was marooned, he was doomed for eternity for the lack of 'some man' to dunk him in water and mumble some 'magic words'?

The churches have taught for hundreds upon hundreds of years that 'water Baptism' is MANDATORY to Salvation. But then these 'churches' are 'man-made' institutions that have made MANY mistakes in interpretation since the day they began to claim to BE 'experts' in their attempted representation of God or Christ.

If you choose to believe and follow what the churches have taught, then you may as well believe that the earth is the center of the universe, that you MUST be a 'part' of THEIR congregation, that YOU have no means of interpreting The Word, and that you MUST give THEM money in order to PLEASE God. The list goes on and on including, in my understanding and belief, that you MUST be Baptized in water in order to be 'saved'.

The TRUTH of the matter is; men have a tendency to err. And most have a tendency to remain in that error so long as they refuse to accept the truth. When we take into consideration that MUCH of the theology that we find in the churches only remotely resembles that which is written in The Word, we can clearly see that much of these beliefs are 'man-made' and often have little in common with the 'truth'. For if MEN were able to come to the truth 'on their own', then there would have been little need for God to communicate with mankind to begin with.

Water may well have it's place in the lives of those that choose to follow this path. I personally HAVE BEEN Baptized in water. But I can attest that it had LITTLE if ANY effect on my life. I was simply DOING what men told me I MUST. I honestly THOUGHT that it was what I NEEDED to do for that is what I had been CONVINCED of 'others' that I MUST.

It was MANY years later before I became born in Spirit and NOT through 'water' and not BY 'men'.

And I can ASSURE you that those things which are offered through Spirit are MUCH more potent than ANYTHING offered through the minds or mouths of 'men'. And the power of this can be seen EVERYWHERE in scripture. For we are told over and over to beware of those that 'use us' for the sake of 'filthy lucre'. That 'false prophets' would abound in their time and ours. And that our hearts desire that which we 'lust after' and we tend to follow those that offer what is able to appease our lusting hearts.

It would be really NICE to believe that ALL one NEED do is have someone 'dunk them in water' and everything is NOW OK. People have a tendency to follow the path of least resistence. But the truth is that NOTHING that we are able to do PHYSICALLY is able to 'save us'. We MUST be born of Spirit in order to LED in Spirit.

Do you believe that Jim Jones could have Baptized you or anyone else IN TRUTH or Spirit by dunking one in water? Or how about this: some churches believe that all it takes is to 'sprinkle' water in one's face. If this is the case, how about if I just 'IMAGINE' being sprinkled with water. in my heart, would this not serve the SAME purpose. Or do you believe that the PHYSICAL is more powerful than that Spiritual?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Oh, and look how DANGEROUS it would BE to believe that 'Salvation' is as simple as having someone 'dunk you in water'.

We have Paul warning his students OVER AND OVER to 'grow up'. And I can assure you that these that he warned HAD been 'Baptized in water'. But still, they remained but 'babes' in Christ. WHY? Because they began to believe that ALL they NEEDED were the mere 'acts' and were able to ignore The Spirit.

One more question: Do you BELIEVE that all that have been 'Baptized in water' HAVE received The Holy Spirit?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[stovebolts]

Hey Duval and Mutz,

Really quick, and I probably won't be back until Monday, but.

Do you believe there is a difference between being Justified by Faith and Saved by baptism? I know that this isn't the thread, but it seems like in your posts that salvation and justification are being used synonymously.

Cheers,

Hi StoveBolts

I don't see them as being synonymous. Water baptism is not necessary for salvation. Faith is.

Hope the weekend is going / went well.
Blessings

Hey Mutz,
Well, I had a chance to sneak on this am. :D

Anyway, I think you misunderstood my question.
You see, your trying to draw a line in the sand, and that's dangerous.
We are justified by faith. What does this mean to you? I'd really like to know.
Baptism now saves. What does that mean to you as well?

How can we be justified by faith, yet saved through baptism? Well, if you look at saved as a one time event, then what your actually talking about is justification, not salvation.

Simply put, we are justified by faith, which is to say come judgment day, we are justified in God's presence, but faith is also the instrument God uses to bring about salvation, not only salvation for you, but those around you, here, today, now.

Being saved is holistic where the operative is the word "Being". Being saved, isn't about what happens come the day of judgment, again, that's justification. Being saved is about transformation, here, now. God wants to 'save' everything about you, here, now, tomorrow and the next day and the next throughout eternity.

Through faith (not by faith, but by Grace), Baptism serves this function, and when we start drawing lines in the sand interchanging justification with salvation then baptism starts to look like man's work, instead of God's work.

Grace and peace.

Jeff

 

[duval]

Hello IMAGICAN

For the record I am not Cathkolic in the sense I belong to the Roman Catholic church, nor have I ever been.

Have you ever heard of your hypothetical question having TRULY happened? I doubt it. Does God hold one responsible for what one cannot do? Could not the man have immersed himself?

With the exception of "fire" baptiosm which occures after the judgment (Mt.25:41) if I remember correctly all the examples you cited were at Pentecost. The 120 were not the ones who receved the baptism of the Holy Spirit, only the apostles. Study the antecedent.

Yes, according to Acts 2:38 one does recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit. Such is NOT Spirit baptism, there are various measures of the Spirit, for example study I Cor.13.

God bless

 

[francisdesales]

duval & francisdesales

I realise that catholic tradition believes that being born of water is not physical birth. I don’t. The way I read it is this.

It is much more than the "catholic tradition". It is unanimous from the writings of the first Christians. Can you point to one source that tells us your version?

Nicodemus, having no concept of spiritual birth could only relate being ‘born again’ with the only birth he was aware of – natural birth. So when Jesus said you must be born again – he couldn’t fathom how this was possible – which is confirmed by his statement "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

So Jesus goes on to explain to him that there are two births. One is of water and one is of the Spirit. And then he leaves Nicodemus in no doubt as to what he is talking about. Flesh gives birth to flesh but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

First of all, Nicodemus SHOULD have known the concept of spiritual birth. Jesus HIMSELF says this, since Nicodemus was a teacher of the Law!!!

No, there is only ONE birth in the spiritual realm. Jesus corrects Nicodemus' idea of fleshy birth from the get-go. Secondly, we are not born of water when we are naturally born! Ever witness a live birth? There is no "water". Lots of blood and gunk. No water.

Now if you can find me one Scriptural metaphor that says man is born of water refering to natural birth, I might actually consider your idea. However, it is clear that the hearers of Scriptures would not consider Jesus as speaking of two births one physical and one spiritual, since there is no concept of being born of water in the Bible.

The Jews would not understand Christ's words in that way. Hearing Christ's words would not conjure up "physical birth" when He mentions WATER... He is speaking of baptism, because the Jews WERE familiar with water baptisms of repentance, which is the beginning of a spiritual "born again" experience, since such a public declaration often did lead to a change in life...

As I said, Christ's words could be taken to mean "born again" or born from above". It is clear from the context, though, that Christ is not speaking of being born again, because Jesus ignores Nicodemus' question. If He was considering the physical birth, it would be a redundant absurd consideration. OF COURSE a person must be "physically born"! That is not what Christ is talking about.

He is speaking of being born from above. We are not BORN AGAIN in the spiritual realm. What is spirit is spirit. There is only one spiritual birth. Christ is not concerned about being physically born here. Everyone in existence has been physically born - so it is silly to even make that link. No, Jesus is clearly speaking of being born spiritually, from God. The Jews should have known that only when one is born from God, from His Spirit, could they become pleasing to God. The context doesn't support your interpretation.

Regards

 

[shad]

First of all water baptism is a Jewish, ceremonial baptism of repentance.

Hi tomlane,

You seem to indicate that we don't need repentance anymore?

I apologize if it is already being discussed. I did not go though with the whole thread.

 

[Tomlane]

Postby Free on Fri Jan 30, 2009 8:13 pm
Tomlane,

You don't have me on ignore, do you? I am still waiting for your reply...

lol, no you are not on my ignore list, not yet. :rolling

I just saw your question that was addressed to me. So what it that I'm ignoring?

Thanks, Tomlane

 

[Tomlane]

First of all water baptism is a Jewish, ceremonial baptism of repentance.

Hi tomlane,
You seem to indicate that we don't need repentance anymore?
I apologize if it is already being discussed. I did not go though with the whole thread.

All I am saying is we need repentance from the heart and not a public show of it with our carnal flesh that can't please God.[/quote]

Repentance is before salvation, not a show of it with carnal flesh after salvation with a Jewish baptism. Doesn't make sense. It didn't to Paul either for he said we only have one baptism Ephs 4:5 so that would have to be spiritual baptism that is an operation of god.

Colossians 2:12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

We have to have repentance first not after salvation and that has to be from the heart and not with the flesh as the pharisees did.

2 Corinthians 7:10  For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Notice not once is water mentioned in conjunction with repentance except for this next verse.

Hebrews 6:1  ¶Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Tomlane

 

[shad]

Thank you tomlain, you make sense.

 

[francisdesales]

Colossians 2:12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.


Notice not once is water mentioned in conjunction with repentance except for this next verse...

Wrong again. The concept of being "buried with him in Baptism" has NO MEANING WITHOUT BEING BURIED IN WATER. The symbolism gives meaning to the phrase. A person is buried under water, as was Christ was buried in the tomb. The man rises from the water, as Christ rose from the tomb. Without the water baptism, how are we "buried with Him in Baptism"??? That makes no sense. By faith, we rise with Christ, symbolically represented by coming out of the water.

Regards

 

[A-Christian]

All I am saying is we need repentance from the heart and not a public show of it with our carnal flesh that can't please God

One day you should read what the earliest Christians were doing in regard to Baptism. This will help you see that your bible interpretations are much differnet than those of men that personally knew the apostles and were taught by the apostles. To say that baptism isn't pleasing to God is yet another distorition of the New Testament as well as Church history. Lead not these little ones astray.

 

[Tomlane]

A-Christian & Francis, I believe the reason we have such a vast difference in religion is I believe a relationship with God is based on faith alone and you two advocate good works and walk by sight. These verses I believe will explain why to me but I would be surprised if they would to anyone else.

John 8:47  He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

1 John 5:6  ¶This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth

1 John 5:9  If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

1 John 5:10  ¶He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

 

[Imagican]

Hello IMAGICAN

For the record I am not Cathkolic in the sense I belong to the Roman Catholic church, nor have I ever been.

Ok.

Have you ever heard of your hypothetical question having TRULY happened? I doubt it. Does God hold one responsible for what one cannot do? Could not the man have immersed himself?

I will offer a direct answer: NO. Now, I have a question that I would appreciate JUST as direct an answer: Do you believe that it COULD happen?

With the exception of "fire" baptiosm which occures after the judgment (Mt.25:41) if I remember correctly all the examples you cited were at Pentecost. The 120 were not the ones who receved the baptism of the Holy Spirit, only the apostles. Study the antecedent.

Acts 1
15And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)

Nothing is offered that ANYTHING changed between this day and the next other than location.

Acts 2
1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

I find nothing to indicate that ONLY the apotles received The Holy Spirit. And when we pass through the text, we also find Peter offering this:

17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

19And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

20The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

21And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

To take this a step further, after Peter preaches to the multitude that witnessed the tongues being spoken, there were 3000 that received the Holy Spirit that SAME day............... So why you choose to believe that ONLY the apostles received the Holy Spirit is confusing to me.


Yes, according to Acts 2:38 one does recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit. Such is NOT Spirit baptism, there are various measures of the Spirit, for example study I Cor.13.

God bless

Acts 1
1The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,

2Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

3To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

4And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

If this is not a clear distinction offered in there BEING a 'different baptism', then I guess there isn't one.

Once again: To BELIEVE that one MUST be Baptised in water, ( a physical event), in order to be 'saved' is equal to believing that ANYTHING you can Physically DO is able to 'bring about' forgiveness. Instead of hashing it out over and over, there will be those that insist that they can create works that are able to benefit themselves and teach this to others. I don't believe this. Nor would I be inclined to teach it to others. I simply accept that God is able to DO what He chooses to DO and I am but required to accept Him as my Creator and the Father of my Savior; Jesus Christ. (Oh, and asking for forgiveness is NOT what I would consider a 'work'. Neither would I consider PRAYER to be a 'work').

Blessings,

MEC

 

[shad]

Hi everyone in this thread.

I don't understand why so many people hang up on the subject of the Baptism. Jesus says it clearly "Baptize them in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit". What is the problem about it?

thank you

 

[francisdesales]

A-Christian & Francis, I believe the reason we have such a vast difference in religion is I believe a relationship with God is based on faith alone and you two advocate good works and walk by sight. These verses I believe will explain why to me but I would be surprised if they would to anyone else.

You consider Baptism a "work", when it is only efficacious because it is GOD who sends the Spirit.

Have you not realized that yet???

Who are you to tell God He is doing it wrong? This is what He commanded. Accept it, if you truly say you love God.

Furthermore, off topic, where does the Bible say our relationship is based upon faith alone??? I see you again invent your own ideas of the meaning of God's Word.

John 8:47  He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

So get off the pot and obey God and His Words and get baptized by water and the Spirit...

Or are you not of God?

1 John 5:6  ¶This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth

This is a verse that witnesses to the Christ. On the cross, blood and water flowed, and the Spirit bore witness. We participate in this through Baptism and the Eucharist. How does this back up your false doctrines?

1 John 5:9  If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

??? Speaking of Christ, not you.

1 John 5:10  ¶He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

You "believe" but refuse to obey Him... Go and read Matthew 7:21! Keep saying "Lord, Lord" and disobey the Father's Will. Keep telling yourself that you love Christ while disobeying Him, you might be able to delude yourself into believing it...

IF He is the Lord and King of your life, you would submit to His will. If not, you are the King of your own life, not Christ.

Regards

 

[Tomlane]

Francis, The way you spout off with no scripture or next to none, all I read is the gospel according to Francis. :yes

I hope one day you may come to know the Lord's saving grace without works since we are all sinners and need the free gift God will give us If we let him.

Romans 3:23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 5:15  But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Romans 5:16  And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Romans 5:18  Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Tomlane

 

[francisdesales]

Francis, The way you spout off with no scripture or next to none, all I read is the gospel according to Francis. :yes

Funny, I was thinking the same of you. What is a shame is your scripture posts do not even speak of baptism, but some misplaced idea that the Scriptures are written about you...

I hope one day you may come to know the Lord's saving grace without works since we are all sinners and need the free gift God will give us If we let him.

Ditto.

Maybe you'll come to realize that to love God requires obedience to God?

Romans 3:23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

I don't recall where I said I haven't sinned. Not sure of the applicability of this verse to anything we have discussed.

Romans 5:15  But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

I haven't denied that either, so I don't know what why you post this...

The work of God is to obey Him.

Try to obey this one:

Unless a man is born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

or

Unless ye eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, ye shall have no life in you.

Here's the deal:

if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church; but if he neglects to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a worldly man and a publican Mat 18:15-17

Well, I have done that. I have tried myself, others have tried. You refuse to hear what the Church has to say... Remember all those posts on fleshy men? There you have it. Those who neglect to hear the Church, Scriptures says, are worldly men. I'll let the Spirit convict you and your conscience on whether you are indeed doing the work of the Lord by your continued disobedience. You apparently are not going to listen to common sense, logic, or the Church - so there is nothing more for me to do for you, then to pray for your soul and its conversion to the Way, the Truth, and the Life...

Regards