Revelation Chapter 20

[jasoncran]

ok, so when its says and the dragon made war with the saints and overcame them? whom died? blood as in does the blood not work in the millennium. how does a millennial saint atone for his sins? via the mosaic customs if there is a temple or not?or by the blood with prayer as described in various manners in the new testament?


satan kills men that love god and where do they go? in heaven? so why would god remove a church to protect them from something satan cant do? that is kill the soul?

 

[JLB]

It is imminent. The thief in the night refers to Christians that are sleeping(reversionism) or to Christians that think that it is not imminent. If we are looking for signs and trying to figure out the day it happens, it will come upon us like a thief in the night.Because it is imminent.

There is no prophecy or signs before the rapture. We just have historical trends to watch. but the degree of the historical trends are not mentioned. We just have birthing pains and apostasy to be aware of.

Distortion of the imminence of the Rapture results in instability and foolish explanation or speculation about the time of the Rapture; hence, James gives us an admonition in JAM 5:7‑8, “Be patient, therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord [the Rapture]. Behold, the farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains. You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.â€

We are not to be patient for tribulation or signs, just for the Coming of the Lord.

Passages like 1 TH 5:6; TIT 2:13; REV 3:3, all warn the believer to be watching for the Lord Himself. Not for signs that would precede His coming.

1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-4

By the language in his letter to the Thessalonians, we see that Paul is referencing the Day of the Lord from Isaiah 13 as Jesus also did.


4 The noise of a multitude in the mountains, Like that of many people! A tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together! The Lord of hosts musters The army for battle. 5 They come from a far country, From the end of heaven-- The Lord and His weapons of indignation, To destroy the whole land. 6 Wail, for the day of the Lord is at hand! It will come as destruction from the Almighty. 7 Therefore all hands will be limp, Every man's heart will melt, 8 And they will be afraid. Pangs and sorrows will take hold of them; They will be in pain as a woman in childbirth; They will be amazed at one another; Their faces will be like flames. 9 Behold, the day of the Lord comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it. 10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine. Isaiah 13:4-10

and again -

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31

Matthew 24 and Isaiah 13 and 1 Thessalonians 5 are all about the same event, The Day of The Lord.

The Day when Jesus Christ returns!

If you have a scripture that overrules what Jesus said and what Paul said and what Isaiah said, please do share with us.


JLB

 

[lowrab777]

Do you believe the rapture and the second coming are two different events? Also, when do you think Jesus will make the old earth into a new earth, during the thousand year reign with Christ or after the devil and Hades have been thrown into the lake of fire.

I believe the rapture and the second coming happen on the last trumpet together. the mystery of God will be revealed as the Two witnesses ascend into the air and the whole world will be watching and then he comes upon the clouds as the scripture says.
Mar_14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

as for the new heaven and the new earth I believe they will be formed through the eradication of evil and after the mellinnium and after the elements of the earth are burned and purged perhaps by the sun our nearest star going supernova, because after the old earth passes the sun will no longer shine
I dont think that the Father would even tabernacle here except through the presence of his son and the holy spirit until all of this is accomplished
then we will see the holy city new jerusalem descend from outer space as some kind of spiritual/physical cube and after it is connected to the earth then the father will dwell with us and tabernacle among men

 

[Guest]

ok, so when its says and the dragon made war with the saints and overcame them? whom died? blood as in does the blood not work in the millennium. how does a millennial saint atone for his sins? via the mosaic customs if there is a temple or not?or by the blood with prayer as described in various manners in the new testament?

satan kills men that love god and where do they go? in heaven? so why would god remove a church to protect them from something satan cant do? that is kill the soul?

What scripture are you referring too with the dragon making war with saints? When you say blood, who and what are you talking about? If a saint is truly born again, then there is no condemnation in those who are in Christ. That's why Jesus died, he died for our sins in full!

I believe the rapture and the second coming happen on the last trumpet together.

Interesting, every timeline I search through says rapture comes before the 1st trumpet is even blown. Do you have scripture. We should go over Revelation Chapter 8.

because after the old earth passes the sun will no longer shine

Good point, because the glory of God will be enough!

 

[jasoncran]

exactly then why is there a millennium? a saint is a saint.

13 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

its says that in revalation 13 as I just quoted

 

[reba]

Originally Posted by lowrab777


because after the old earth passes the sun will no longer
shine

Good point, because the glory of God will be enough!

Jesus tells us the resurrection is the last day

Joh_6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Joh_6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh_6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh_6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


Joh_11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Joh_12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

[John 8:32]

Jesus tells us the resurrection is the last day

Joh_6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Joh_6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh_6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh_6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


Joh_11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Joh_12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

I do have to ask, which last day?

There is more than one resurrection...

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

And the one following the first resurrection (I believe we would call that the second resurreciton, since it follows the first) is one thousand years later.

 

[reba]

oh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Just seems to me, sense Jesus is the resurrection and the life, our theologies should fit into His Words...

 

[Guest]

exactly then why is there a millennium? a saint is a saint.

Because God is God and he makes the rules. As I see it, a born again saint that's still alive will be raptured before tribulation.

 

[John 8:32]

oh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Just seems to me, sense Jesus is the resurrection and the life, our theologies should fit into His Words...

I agree, but He doesn't specify that the resurrections are simultaneous here and then in Rev 20 He inspires John to write they are separated in time.

 

[John 8:32]

Because God is God and he makes the rules. As I see it, a born again saint that's still alive will be raptured before tribulation.

That would be the case if there were a rapture. If your aunt had ........., she'd be your uncle, but she don't so she ain't. There is no rapture.

 

[JLB]

Because God is God and he makes the rules. As I see it, a born again saint that's still alive will be raptured before tribulation.

Please give the scripture that shows the resurrection is before the tribulation.

The resurrection is before the rapture.

JLB

 

[reba]

Jesus says the resurrection is the last day. I believe Him. Shaking off the 40+ years of despy teaching was painful but then so is setting a broken bone.... I also believe Him when He said 'this generation"

 

[Guest]

That would be the case if there were a rapture. If your aunt had ........., she'd be your uncle, but she don't so she ain't. There is no rapture.

What about my aunt? What are you talking about. My uncle got swazy.

Please give the scripture that shows the resurrection is before the tribulation.

The resurrection is before the rapture.

JLB

Not resurrection, rapture. Resurrection occurs in the 1000 year reign, after tribulation.

 

[John 8:32]

Please give the scripture that shows the resurrection is before the tribulation.

The resurrection is before the rapture.

JLB

There is no rapture, there is a resurrection at the return of Christ which puts an end to the GT and the DotL.

 

[lowrab777]

Interesting, every timeline I search through says rapture comes before the 1st trumpet is even blown. Do you have scripture. We should go over Revelation Chapter 8.

Rev 10:7 When the time approaches for the seventh angel to blow his trumpet, God's secret plan will be fulfilled, as he had announced to his servants, the prophets."
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

I didnt any thing in Rev 8 befor the trumpets sounded that looked like the transformation we have been speaking of

 

[Guest]

Rev 10:7 When the time approaches for the seventh angel to blow his trumpet, God's secret plan will be fulfilled, as he had announced to his servants, the prophets."
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Revelation 11:12 is referring to the righteous that are dead in their graves rising and hearing his voice. The alive Christians taken up to rapture are separate from the righteous dead in their graves, need not confuse the two.

 

[Guest]

There is no rapture

That's your opinion, I wouldn't wait on it though. I highly doubt it will be in our lifetime. But we should be sober of the signs to come.

 

[lowrab777]

Revelation 11:12 is referring to the righteous that are dead in their graves rising and hearing his voice. The alive Christians taken up to rapture are separate from the righteous dead in their graves, need not confuse the two.

Wow I really felt like Rev 11:12 was talking about the two witnesses ascending after their dead boies lay in the street for 3 1/2 days. At least thats what I just read. :yes

 

[lowrab777]

I do feel like at that point the rest that remain alive will also ascend and at that moment the mystery of God will no longer be a mystery because every body thats left on the earth will see it happen and then after the silence that lasts for about the space of an hour the last trumpet is blown and all who are left will know that it is in fact Jesus Christ coming on the clouds. Then the great tribulation will be certain. And the whole world will no longer view the prophecies as mysterious but as a reatlity. The mystery will have been revealed.