Romans 4:4-5 - A Challenge to Traditional View

[Drew]

What I am saying Drew is you are plucking verses without paying attention to the greater context of the paragraph, the chapter, and the entire book.

I have done a very detailed context based analysis of a subset of Romans. If you think I am wrong, then please tell me precisely how. If you want to talk about the intent of the entire letter, I am more than happy to do so - I think it supports the notion that Paul is centrally concerned with the Jew-Gentile divsions in the church at Rome and that he is not at all concerned with redressing the idea that we are justified by good works.

What you post here is a vague assertion, without specifics. Please argue specific points - I will be happy to oblige.

 

[RadicalReformer]

Drew - you are making the X and Y the important parts of the passage... however, I would suggest that the X and Y are used as support for the notion that God is just.

Paul is arguing that God is Just to allow the Gentlies to receive justification, whereby the Jews thought that they and they alone were able to receive justification because of their position as "God's Chosen".

Paul is basically saying that it is those who have faith in Christ Jesus that are "God's Chosen" - and God is Just in doing so.

I do not know how much plainer you would like me to write it.

 

[Drew]

Drew - you are making the X and Y the important parts of the passage... however, I would suggest that the X and Y are used as support for the notion that God is just.

Paul is arguing that God is Just to allow the Gentlies to receive justification, whereby the Jews thought that they and they alone were able to receive justification because of their position as "God's Chosen".

Paul is basically saying that it is those who have faith in Christ Jesus that are "God's Chosen" - and God is Just in doing so.

I do not know how much plainer you would like me to write it.

Sorry, I cannot figure out what you are saying here. I am saying that Paul intends the reader to take him "literally" in verse 7.

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

There is no doubt about the following: A "plain reading" of this sentence in isolation says that the basis of receiving eternal life is "persistence in doing good". I am not one to ignore context. So, specifically, how does context allow us to read this verse in a manner other than how it reads in isolation.

There is no question - Paul is addressing this statement to both Jews and Gentiles. He undescores this no less than 3 times in a very short block of verses. I cannot take seriously the claim that this "about the Jews only" or "about the Gentiles only".

I certainly agree with this:

Paul is arguing that God is Just to allow the Gentlies to receive justification, whereby the Jews thought that they and they alone were able to receive justification because of their position as "God's Chosen".

Paul is basically saying that it is those who have faith in Christ Jesus that are "God's Chosen" - and God is Just in doing so.

but that is not the central issue of the 2:5-13 block. The issue in that block is a judgement for both Jew and Gentile.

But how does that undermine my position? I see it as supporting my position on Romans 4.

And how does the truth of what you post above, justify an interpretatoin of Romans 2:7 that does not entail good works being needed for eternal life?

 

[RadicalReformer]

No.. the central issue is the Justness of God.

Paul is addressing various individuals in Romans 2 through 3 as a basis for buildling his case.

God's judgement is not the same as salvation of God.

Paul's is referring to God's judgement not His "act of judging".

In other words, Paul is proving the God is Just in His ability to pass judgement, not that God is actually providing judgement.

Start in verse 4 - Paul is talking about the Blessings of God - summed up with the fact that God shows no impartiality. Therefore, the Jews cannot claim "favoritism".

 

[Drew]

In other words, Paul is proving the God is Just in His ability to pass judgement, not that God is actually providing judgement.

I think readers need to realize how strained this conclusion is, at least as I understand it.

In Romans 2 we are presented with a very clear statement of a future judgement. We are told it will take place in the future. We are told that all people will face this judgement. We are told that those who persist in doing good will get eternal life. We are told that those who do evil will get wrath and anger. We are told there will be no partiality (e.g. Jew vs Gentile). We are told that that:

This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Unless you did not intend to write what you did, you are asking the reader to believe that this is all a statement of what God's ability - what he could do, and not a statement of what he will do.

Need more be said? To make such an inference is to deny the plain sense of the text. There will be a judgement.

If I say that I will go the baseball game on Tuesday, am I merely asserting my ability to go to the game?

This reading you propose seems highly implausible. The only possible way such a view might work is if Paul himself qualified the material to such an effect - if Paul said that he was only talking about an ability on the part of God rather than something God would actually do.

And, of course, Paul does nothing of the kind. The standard reformed position is to read such a "this works based judgement will not actually happen" back into the text, based on a demonstrably erroneous reading of Romans 3 and 4. That reading entails the notion that Paul sets faith against doing "good works", when, I suggest, it is clear that Paul is doing nothing of the sort - he sets faith against the ethnic distinctiveness of doing Torah.

Which, of course, dovetails with one of the main reasons for writing the letter in the first place - to ensure Jew-Gentile harmony in the Roman church.

We do not need to do handflips about Romans 2:5-13. It is a real judgement that will actually take place.

 

[Vic C.]

In Romans 2 we are presented with a very clear statement of a future judgement. We are told it will take place in the future. We are told that all people will face this judgement. We are told that those who persist in doing good will get eternal life. We are told that those who do evil will get wrath and anger. We are told there will be no partiality (e.g. Jew vs Gentile). We are told that that:

This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

I agree this is a future judgment, (see Rev. 20) but who is being judged in this judgment? In other words, who are the gentiles in chapter two? Lets keep in mind some of these gentiles are doing by nature what is right, a sort of "natural law". I disagree with your statement that "all people will face this judgment.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Lets also keep in mind the context of chapter one and the self righteous Jews Paul is writing to and about here.

My point? You don't even find God's ekklesia (Christ's church) written about here. Why is that??? Could there actually be two judgments; one for the righteous in Christ and a second judgment written about in Revelation?

 

[Drew]

I disagree with your statement that "all people will face this judgment.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Lets also keep in mind the context of chapter one and the self righteous Jews Paul is writing to and about here.

To be frank, I just cannot see how such a position can survive the very statements in the text itself, in fact multiple times - this is not a judgement confined to the Jews or the Gentiles. It is for all people. Let the text speak for itself on this matter:

for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

How can the notion that this is written only to self-righteous Jews possibly be sustained here? Has Paul not three times declared that the judgement is for Jew and Gentile, for those under Torah and those not under Torah?

 

[RadicalReformer]

Drew - did I say there was not a future judgement? If so, I would appreciate it if you would show me where.

The issue that I have with your position Drew is that you are in effect adding "works" to salvation. Sorry, works are added after salvation. Bill Gates does a lot of "good" works. Without Christ - his works mean squat.

 

[RadicalReformer]

I disagree with your statement that "all people will face this judgment.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Lets also keep in mind the context of chapter one and the self righteous Jews Paul is writing to and about here.

To be frank, I just cannot see how such a position can survive the very statements in the text itself, in fact multiple times - this is not a judgement confined to the Jews or the Gentiles. It is for all people. Let the text speak for itself on this matter:

for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

How can the notion that this is written only to self-righteous Jews possibly be sustained here? Has Paul not three times declared that the judgement is for Jew and Gentile, for those under Torah and those not under Torah?

Drew - how can you be missing the fact that the intent of Paul's writting in Romans is to show the Jews that a) they are not the 'most favored nation' and b) the Gentiles are included into the plan of salvation?

Paul uses various "witnesses" to attest to this. How is it that you are missing them?

 

[Drew]

Drew - how can you be missing the fact that the intent of Paul's writting in Romans is to show the Jews that a) they are not the 'most favored nation' and b) the Gentiles are included into the plan of salvation?

Paul uses various "witnesses" to attest to this. How is it that you are missing them?

And, if you indeed read my posts, you will know that I have been arguing this very point myself. I agree entirely about Paul's intent.

However, when I woke up this morning, my copy of Romans 2 still describes a judgement for both Jew and Gentile.

 

[Vic C.]

However, when I woke up this morning, my copy of Romans 2 still describes a judgment for both Jew and Gentile.

... and I agree. I did ask where can one find God's ekklesia in Romans 2? Lets expand this study a bit.

Drew, What do these verses mean to you?

1 Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. (classic pre-wrath)

1 Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, (again, classic pre-wrath)

When and why is the ekklesia judged? Do you believe in two resurrections; one for the righteous and one for the unrighteous? There is also the verse in Revelation saying the second death has no power over those who partake in the first resurrection.

What you may consider a wrathful judgment of believers (which I contend, violates scripture) is really a judgment declaring rewards or lack of. There are two meanings for the word Bema; one you touched on in another post' where you talked about a court of law type of judgment. There is another definition for Bema which I believe to be more inline with Christian teaching.

This Bema is one of evaluation and not judgment, to determine awards or "rewards" based on performance. We find a hint of this in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15.

Drew, I am a pre-millennial historicist and Rad is amillennial but I think he'd agree with me here.

 

[Drew]

Hello Vic:

I cannot answer your most recent fully just yet, but I will. But you did post something that I think cannot possibly be squared with Romans 2 (I added the bold):

What you may consider a wrathful judgment of believers (which I contend, violates scripture) is really a judgment declaring rewards or lack of.

Are you saying that eternal life itself is not at stake, that this is a judgement where believers get "rewards" with eternal life itself not at risk? If this is what you are saying, I cannot possibly see how that works with Romans 2:7:

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

 

[Vic C.]

... Are you saying that eternal life itself is not at stake, that this is a judgement where believers get "rewards" with eternal life itself not at risk? If this is what you are saying, I cannot possibly see how that works with Romans 2:7:

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

You may not see it because you are still trying to squeeze the ekklesia into 2:7. Leave them out of this judgment and all of a sudden 1 Th 1:10 and 1 Th 5:9 become much more clearer. Also, understanding who is being spoken about in Romans 2:14-16 clears up who is and isn't winding up in the Lake of Fire in:

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Drew]

You may not see it because you are still trying to squeeze the ekklesia into 2:7. Leave them out of this judgment and.....

But this simply defies the plain teaching of Romans 2 that it is a judgement to which each human being will be subject. If one is going to do that, anything can be proven:

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done

You are saying that, in fact, not every human person will be subject to this judgement. It would be hard to make that stick in light of the "each person" teaching. However, I will concede that the above verse is not, in and of itself a "slam-dunk" against the view that only a subset of persons will face the judgement. Perhaps Paul means "each person" within some special subset of humanity. I would be open to this except for the implications of verse 7.

Here is my argument against your position (as I understand it).

1. You assert that not all human beings will be subject to the works judgement in Romans 2.

2. The works judgement in Romans 2 involves the granting of eternal life based on 'good works' - this is the clear teaching of 2:7.

3. There are only three option for you at this point that I am aware of:

A. Claim that there are zero persons who will be given eternal life as per Romans 2:7;
B. Claim that some persons do get eternal life in accordance with 2:7, but most of us get it another way
C. Claim that Paul is not intending to represent a "cause and effect" relationship between "persisting in doing good" and getting eternal life.

I will not repeat arguments I have made against A and C, which I have already given ad nauseum. And I assume you do not hold to B. I suspect that you adhere to position A and think that the other texts you referred me to substantiate that position. I will look at those other texts. But one can be suspicious right from the start about Position A since it makes Paul into such a horrible writer that he would say something about a set of persons - that they will get eternal life based on 'good works' - and give no hint at all that he really intends us to believe that there will be zero persons in that set. In this section, he gives us absolutely no reason to believe otherwise. He would have to be a pretty strange writer to not give us at least a hint that he does not mean what he says - that there will be some who will get eternal life based on the content of their lives.

A coherent writer, if he really wanted to represent position A, would say something like "Those who persist in doing good would be given eternal life". But Paul does not do this.

At the end of the day, almost any position can be argued for if one allows that the writer (in this case Paul) is very "loosy-goosy" in his argumentation. I think the evidence suggests that Paul is not such a fuzzy writer that he would hold position A and write Romans 2 the way he did.

I will, however, consider those other texts.

 

[Vic C.]

You are saying that, in fact, not every human person will be subject to this judgment.

Bingo. ;-) That's part of the blessed hope, that's part of the promise that we won't be subjected to the wrath and judgment that leads to the "second death". Drew, if you want be subjected to a judgment that decides whether or not you are granted eternal life and you already have given your life over to Jesus, you may be too late. ;-)

It would be hard to make that stick in light of the "each person" teaching.

Not really, if you consider what I said previously. Jews and Gentiles are the target groups in that passage, but you don't seem to agree with that assessment. You seem to not want to harmonize or reconcile your conclusion with other scripture I provided. We need to draw a clear conclusion as to whether or not the ekklesia is subject to God's wrath of judgment.

Is the Church subjected to God's wrath, yes or no? If yes then there's no point in me trying to convince you and all hope and faith in Jesus and His work on the Cross for us is pointless. If no, then we draw closer to the truth.

Are we "Set apart" from those "others" in the world, yes or no. If yes, then we're not part of this last judgment. If no, then I strongly urge you to read 1 Corinth 15; for it explains why Jesus died and rose from the dead and for whom. Show us in the latter part of that chapter where and when this judgment of believers happens. I don't see it. I see this:

1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

We know this to be about the dead and living in Christ. We are all changed in a moment, a twinkling of an eye... no time for judgment on the ekklesia there or anywhere else. All we have after that is what is referred to as the Bema judgment, the judgment seat of Christ, briefly described in 1 Corinthians 3:10-14.

Drew, if you can't or don't want to address any of what I offered out of scripture, answer me this:

What provision(s) for salvation does God reveal for those who have lived and died never knowing the Good News or have never even heard the name Jesus?

Peace,
Vic

 

[Drew]

I am not sure what exactly you believe the stuff in Romans 2 is all about. Am I correct that you believe Christian believers are not going to be subjected to that judgement. If you answer "yes", then you are saying it is a real judgement that will actually occur, but that the church will be excluded from that judgement. Then, since this is a real judgement, we have to deal with this:

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

Who are these people? By the terms of your argument, as I understand it, they cannot be members of the church. So which is it?

1. There is a second path to eternal life for some who are outside the church (i.e. 'good works')?

2. There are zero persons in this set.

I would not think either choice is very plausible.

If there are zero persons in this set, why does Paul even mention it in the context of a real judgement? Why not simply say that everyone who faces this judgement will get wrath. I cannot emphasize enough - Paul would have to have a very strange and frankly incompetent writing style to make a statement about 'good works' being the basis for getting eternal life when he does not really mean it.

We know that the judgement described in Romans 2 is real, and not just Paul's restatement of a Jewish position that he later rejects. We know this because Jesus is specified as the judge:

This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares

You claim that the church will not be at this judgement. Unless you believe there is a second "works-based" path to eternal life for a very few, you are forced into the position of claiming that Paul makes a statement about a path to justification that precisely zero persons will follow.

I just do not think Paul is that kind of a writer. If one is willing to accept that he is, perhaps your position can be sustained.

 

[Vic C.]

Hi Drew,

I really don't have much more to add without going into a whole lot of teaching on the Ekklesia, judgment, End Times, etc. I'm fully convinced from scripture that the ekklesia is promised no wrath or a judgment that determines our eternal state. I'm convinced that there is one type of "judgment" for believers which determines some type of reward in the life eternal. I'm also convinced that there will be another judgment in the end for everyone outside of God's elect ekklesia.

If you are seeking an answer to what the bulk of Romans 2 may be saying, at least the last few verses, answer this for yourself...

What provision(s) for salvation does God reveal for those who have lived and died never knowing the Good News or have never even heard the name Jesus?

I think if you can answer this, it may clear up many misunderstandings.

The answer to this may seem strange at first, coming from someone (me) who believes in "a faith alone" type of salvation... and I was taken back at first a while ago, in this very forum, that many seemed to believe the same as I, including some RC and Prot members.

Is there anyone reading any of this who may think the same or even think what I've been saying is wrong? It's just Drew and I; someone must have concept as to how these verses fit into their theology. I truly believe in a just and loving God, who somehow has in HIS plan a way of salvation through Christ, for those in the quote above.

 

[Drew]

Consider this from 2 Corinthians 10:

10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

I think that the context clearly indicates that believers are in the set of those that appear at this judgement. Is this is the same judgement as per Romans 2 - the one that Vic C maintains believers will not be at? I think that it is. I suspect that some will say that the judgement described in 2 Corinthians 10 is one where eternal life is not at stake. Well, consider what Paul has been talking about immediately before he makes the above statement:

For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.

5Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.

6Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord--

7for we walk by faith, not by sight--

8we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

9Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.

To me, Paul clearly has the specific matter of eternal life in view here. So it seems eminently sensible to me to take verse 10 as having implications re the receipt of eternal life.

 

[Drew]

Hi Drew,

I really don't have much more to add without going into a whole lot of teaching on the Ekklesia, judgment, End Times, etc. I'm fully convinced from scripture that the ekklesia is promised no wrath or a judgment that determines our eternal state. I'm convinced that there is one type of "judgment" for believers which determines some type of reward in the life eternal. I'm also convinced that there will be another judgment in the end for everyone outside of God's elect ekklesia.

I think what you are saying here is possible, but there is no denying that this position forces us to see Paul as an exceedingly cryptic writer, one who says things that he does not really mean and then elsewhere in his writings (or in other parts of Scripture) we find the "reason" not to take him literally when he says "each person" will be judged (Romans 2) and that "to those who persist in doing good, He will give eternal life". It is a very strange writer indeed who describes this awesome picture of a final judgement in Romans 2, says it will be for "each person" and that those who do good will get eternal life, while all the while really intending us to understand that he is not talking about each person after all, but only a subset, and that no one will actually get eternal life at that judgement after all.

At least with the view I am proposing, the worst we have to do is say that Paul has not yet told us how people will be justified by their works (in accordance with 2:7) given what he admittedly later on to say about the universaility of sin. But even that is not entirely true, since Paul immediately hints at an answer:

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, ...

Covenant renewal is key. If you miss the covenant history that I believe is there in chapters 1 through 4, you miss the notion from 3:21 that things have changed - we are no longer mired in the hopeless state described in the first part of chapter 3. From 3:21:

But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested....

And part of what has happened "now" is the writing of the Law on the hearts of people so that, as per the covenant renewal passage in Deuteronomy 30, the Law is "in our hearts and hands so that we may obey it" and is not "too difficult" for us:

The "Romans 3 shows that no one can meet the criteria of Romans 2:7" argument therefore has a fatal flaw - that view fails to recognize that the hopeless situation described in the early part of chapter 3 describes the state of the world prior to God and Christ acting in fidelity with the covenant.

What provision(s) for salvation does God reveal for those who have lived and died never knowing the Good News or have never even heard the name Jesus?

I think the answer may be right there in Romans 2:

14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,

15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

16on the day when, according to my gospel, (AB)God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus

I realize that Paul has the Jew / Gentile division in relation to Torah in view, but I see no reason not to take the above as a statement as to how God makes provision for those Gentiles who not only are not under Torah, but never even heard of Jesus.

 

[Vic C.]

I think that the context clearly indicates that believers are in the set of those that appear at this judgment. Is this is the same judgment as per Romans 2.

That's one of the problems Drew... you think. I'm convinced by the whole body of scripture this is a different judgment with different results. Those who were dead and alive in Christ, as per 1 Cor 15:51-54 will never, ever appear before the Great White Throne and the Father's final judgment. I fear that unless you are seeing this from a Christian eschatology point of view, you may never fully realize the scriptural need for two judgments. You may also never understand that God's elect ekklesia will not suffer through the kind of judgment you are visualizing. Please, stop thinking, get on your knees and pray and listen to the one and only teacher in things scriptural, the Holy Spirit.

Consider this from 2 Corinthians 10:

10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

You really lost me now. 2 Cor 10:10 says:

2 Cor 10:10 For his letters, say they, are weighty and powerful; but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible.

You must mean 2 Cor 5:10. 8-) I'm well aware of the meaning of this passage. It's the one I argue against when someone uses it to prove immediacy. I'm also confident this is a passage meant specifically for the body of true believers. This is the Bema judgment I alluded to so many times and have posted about. This is a different judgment than the Final Judgment.

Brother, you are making me dizzy. :crazyeyes: I feel like I keep going 'round and 'round. Are you really reading my posts Drew? :-?

I think what you are saying here is possible, but there is no denying that this position forces us to see Paul as an exceedingly cryptic writer, one who says things that he does not really mean and then elsewhere in his writings (or in other parts of Scripture) we find the "reason" not to take him literally when he says "each person" will be judged (Romans 2) and that "to those who persist in doing good, He will give eternal life". It is a very strange writer indeed who describes this awesome picture of a final judgement in Romans 2, says it will be for "each person" and that those who do good will get eternal life, while all the while really intending us to understand that he is not talking about each person after all, but only a subset, and that no one will actually get eternal life at that judgement after all.

Aah, just when you thought you had Paul all figured out. ;-) Peter said Paul wasn't easy to understand. Also remember the target audience most likely understood him better than we do.

At least with the view I am proposing, the worst we have to do is say that Paul has not yet told us how people will be justified by their works (in accordance with 2:7) given what he admittedly later on to say about the universaility of sin. But even that is not entirely true, since Paul immediately hints at an answer:

[quote:32abb]For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, ...

[/quote:32abb]
You keep going back to that and I keep saying these are not Christians. :o Trust me, that is not the worst you are doing.

I think the answer may be right there in Romans 2:

14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,

15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

16on the day when, according to my gospel, (AB)God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus

I realize that Paul has the Jew / Gentile division in relation to Torah in view, but I see no reason not to take the above as a statement as to how God makes provision for those Gentiles who not only are not under Torah, but never even heard of Jesus.

Sorry you don't see. I do and many do also. So, my question remains unanswered and unreconciled by you:

What provision(s) for salvation does God reveal for those who have lived and died never knowing the Good News or have never even heard the name Jesus?