Deut 6:5
Lk 7:47
Jn 14:15
1 Peter 4:8
And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charityshall cover the multitude of sins.
1 Corinthians 16:22
If any man love not the Lord JesusChrist, let him be Anathema
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Salvation by grace through faith; not through works / law-keeping.
- Thread starter justbyfaith
- Start date
Lk 7:47
Jn 14:15
1 Peter 4:8
And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charityshall cover the multitude of sins.
1 Corinthians 16:22
If any man love not the Lord JesusChrist, let him be Anathema
I think that the point that will become evident in a moment is that the law is not even engraved on a stony heart.
You have to obtain an heart of flesh in order to have the law written on it.
Tenchi
Member
As was pointed out already in this thread, agape love comes from God; it is given to the born-again believer in the Person of the Holy Spirit (Romans 5:5; Galatians 5:22). It is God's own agape love that He wants from us, not our sin-corrupted, selfish, contingent human love. We only come to possess agape love, however, when we're spiritually-regenerated, not before. To make the possession and expression of that love necessary to salvation, then, puts the cart before the horse and requires of the lost person the impossible. Only once they're indwelt by the Holy Spirit can they love God as He has commanded.
The Israelite nation demonstrated time and again how impossible it was for them to love God as He had commanded them to do. Without the life of Christ dwelling within them in the Person of the Holy Spirit, no OT Jew had the wherewithal to love God with His own holy, eternal, self-sacrificing love, which, again, is the only love He actually desires from us.
We are no different today. God must first give to us all He requires from us and He does that in the Person of the Holy Spirit (Philippians 2:12-13). Agape love, godly love, is the fruit of salvation, then, NOT the means of salvation.
Please explain
Matt parable of the sower all had faith are all saved?
Rom 13:11
1 cor 13:2
Jn 15:4
Everlasting life does not equal salvation but the state of grace
The seal of the spirit is baptism ez 36:25-27
The Christian sacrament* of baptismal regeneration is required for the new covenant and salvation!
*this promise acts 2:38-39 is a sacred oath from God ez 36:25-27 and a sacred oath is a sacrament!
Initiation!!!
Faith & Baptism is the initiation of the new and eternal covenant!
You cannot enter on you’re own or by “faith alone”!
You cannot receive Christ or grace by “faith alone”!
“Accept Christ as you’re personal lord and savior” is fundamentalist tradition not found scripture!
Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Baptismal regeneration a new creation in Christ! 2 Cor 5:17
A sacrament is an oath! A sacred promise from God! Ez 36:25-27
Acts 2:38-39 (this promise)
No baptism no grace!
A sacrament is an outward sign for all men including infants And a gift from God to help us see what he does inwardly and invisibly by his grace!
As grace Washes our souls in the merits of Jesus blood from original and personal sin, so the outward action of washing is visible!
without the outward action the inward action cannot take place!
Jn 3:5 Titus 3:5 water and washing
acts 22:16 wash away your sin!
Jn 3:5 Born again BY water and the spirit! Not by “faith alone”!
They did not go to Jerusalem and preach “accept Christ as you’re personal Lord and savior “
They went to the river (water) and they baptized! Jn 3:22
A covenant requires an outward sign of the inward action of grace!
Ez 36:25 I will sprinkle you with clean water and you shall be made white as snow.
Acts 22:16 washing away your sins.
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism.
1 pet 3:21 baptism saves you.
You cannot enter on you’re own or by faith alone!
2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Baptism!
God breathed life into Adam, gen 2:7 and we received this life from our fathers!
Christ breathed on the apostles our spiritual fathers, we receive the new covenant life of God’s grace from them thru faith & baptism! Jn 20:21-23 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38 eph 2
Born again! Born from above!
'The Father has set his seal' on Christ (John 6:27) and also seals us in him (cf. 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:23, 4:30). Because this seal indicates the indelible effect of the anointing with the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Baptism,
Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life." 87 The faithful Christian who I has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith," 88 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.
St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13
Sealed by God eph 1:13 sealed by God (ez 36:25-27) in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16
1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)
Sealed in the ark, sealed in the church the ark of salvation by God thru baptism!
Christ instituted the holy church for the salvation of all men, (repent and believe the gospel, with the institution of the sacraments to convey grace to sanctify souls!
Effects of faith & baptism!
Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 and 5 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:5 one faith, one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!
“Faith alone” accomplishes nothing!
1 cor 13:2 even all faith (alone) without charity avails NOTHING!!!
Faith and baptism!
Scripture says none of the things about “Faith alone”!
Only James 2:24 a man is justified by works and not by “faith alone”
2 Peter 1:11
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
The Christian sacrament of baptism is the Initiation into the new covenant and must be ministered to you by the apostles!
B
Fire is love of God ez 36:25-27
We receive in baptism (justification)
Romans 5:5
And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
At Pentecost what is symbolized by the tongues of fire but the light of truth and the love of God!
In your understanding how does one become “born again”?
Tenchi
Member
Ezekiel 36:25-27 (ESV)
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.
26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.
This makes my point for me. Especially verse 27, which links walking in God's statutes and being careful to obey His rules with the Spirit dwelling within a person. Ezekiel says nothing here of fire, however.
All of the signs accompanying the coming of the Holy Spirit to live within the very first born-again Christians were signs of his presence, of himself. The text gives us no clear, explicit grounds to say anything else. To hold, then, that the "tongues of fire" were symbolic of the "light of truth and the love of God" is to say they were symbolic of the Spirit in whom these things were imparted to the first adopted children of God. It was the Spirit of Truth who came upon the disciples in the upper room; it was the Spirit of love who gave them new, spiritual life and power. The wind and tongues were merely evidence of the Holy Spirit having come.
Only once the Spirit had come, however, did the first born-again disciples of Christ possess in him the love of God. As I said, such love is the result of salvation, not the means of salvation.
How is one born-again? In the way God explains in His word:
John 1:12
John 3:3-7, 16, 36
John 7:38-39
John 12:35-36
John 14:6
John 20:31
Acts 16:30-31
Romans 3:22
Romans 10:9-10
Galatians 3:22
And so on.
What's crucial in believing in Christ is that one is believing in the biblical Christ, a Christ who actually exists, not some modern, romantic cartoon of him. He is Lord and King, our Creator, and our Savior. To receive him, to trust in him, is to come into relationship with the Maker of the Universe (John 1:3; Colossians 1:15-17), one's Sovereign Ruler and Master, who is loving, gentle, faithful and gracious to his own, but who stands now in his heavenly glory as the apostle John described:
Revelation 1:12-18
12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands,
13 and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest.
14 The hairs of his head were white, like white wool, like snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire,
15 his feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters.
16 In his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength.
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last,
18 and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.
26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.
This makes my point for me. Especially verse 27, which links walking in God's statutes and being careful to obey His rules with the Spirit dwelling within a person. Ezekiel says nothing here of fire, however.
All of the signs accompanying the coming of the Holy Spirit to live within the very first born-again Christians were signs of his presence, of himself. The text gives us no clear, explicit grounds to say anything else. To hold, then, that the "tongues of fire" were symbolic of the "light of truth and the love of God" is to say they were symbolic of the Spirit in whom these things were imparted to the first adopted children of God. It was the Spirit of Truth who came upon the disciples in the upper room; it was the Spirit of love who gave them new, spiritual life and power. The wind and tongues were merely evidence of the Holy Spirit having come.
Only once the Spirit had come, however, did the first born-again disciples of Christ possess in him the love of God. As I said, such love is the result of salvation, not the means of salvation.
How is one born-again? In the way God explains in His word:
John 1:12
John 3:3-7, 16, 36
John 7:38-39
John 12:35-36
John 14:6
John 20:31
Acts 16:30-31
Romans 3:22
Romans 10:9-10
Galatians 3:22
And so on.
What's crucial in believing in Christ is that one is believing in the biblical Christ, a Christ who actually exists, not some modern, romantic cartoon of him. He is Lord and King, our Creator, and our Savior. To receive him, to trust in him, is to come into relationship with the Maker of the Universe (John 1:3; Colossians 1:15-17), one's Sovereign Ruler and Master, who is loving, gentle, faithful and gracious to his own, but who stands now in his heavenly glory as the apostle John described:
Revelation 1:12-18
12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands,
13 and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest.
14 The hairs of his head were white, like white wool, like snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire,
15 his feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters.
16 In his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength.
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last,
18 and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.
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I will put no (!) but I will make a comment IMHO.
The fire at Pentecost was the cleansing fire that burns up the dross.
If we confess our sins is the fire.
The languages at Pentecost were the impossible being possible in sons and daughters?
The sharing of goods is in the mind and flesh?
I will put the law in hearts and minds is Pentecost. In our heart we know of our sin.
In our mind we serve God.
Mississippi redneck
eddif
The prophets of about Ezekiel’s time all had a statement about the law being placed in heart ind mind (or inner being or other such words). Ezekiel 36:26
The spiritual gifts IMHO are the power to be a witness.
The sprinkling could be the blood of Jesus being sprinkled at the time of his beating (his reins were pierced) (kidneys) and the symbolism of the serpent on the pole are in the kidneys. The kidneys filter blood (symbolic of removing sin from us). Later the brazen serpent had to be destroyed because the worship of the brazen serpent began.
In one sense I apologize for all this symbolism. If the symbolism is seen as pointing to Jesus on the cross it is ok, but if the symbolism gets too much attention that is bad. The parable of the sower let’s us see symbolism.
We are changed so that the dominion of sin over us is broken.
But sin still exists.
At the last trump we are changed completely.
The former rain and latter rain symbolism of Romans 5:5 is probably what I described. There is rain at the harvest.
But
The latter rain group would find my description boring.
There sure is a limit to what I know.
Mississippi redneck
eddif
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God gives us a new heart so we can love God with the help of the HS rom 5:5
Tenchi
Member
???
RBDERRICK
Supporter
Good analogy. Sinning people aren't floating. All sin is transgression of the law of Christ.
No matter what the boat calls itself, transgressing Christ's law don't float, but sinks to the bottom of the sea.
Faith alone is a dead weight full of holes.
Ye have sown much, and bring in little; ye eat, but ye have not enough; ye drink, but ye are not filled with drink; ye clothe you, but there is none warm; and he that earneth wages earneth wages to put it into a bag with holes.
True. No on sinning with the devil against God's law is alive in Christ Jesus.
True. As well as His law.
I must be missing something. So far the teaching is all about saved and justified by faith alone without works nor doing the law of God. Now it appears to be Judaism teaching the law of Moses for Christians to do.
Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
This nullifies confession of sinning with godly sorrow.
It makes confession of Jesus Christ irrelevant, which is the foundation of grace through faith.
Jesus does not come to deliver people from His law, but to deliver us from transgressing His law. The law of God is not the problem of man. Transgressing His law is sinful man's problem.
This is lip service to the law and obedience, since it was just declared that being under the law is not of faith.
Faith and obedience are not contrary to one another.
Then don't keep it. Transgress the law and sin all you like.
Making up our own doctrine to excuse sinning won't resurrect us from the dead unto life.
Such hypocrisy only works for us until the grave.
All faith alone doctrine is saturated with anti-works, anti-law keeping, anti-obedience, anti-virtue rhetoric.
That's because faith alone is dead, and there is nothing pro-works, pro-law keeping, pro-obedience, pro-virtue about it.
Nothing dead is not pro-life.
True. Then we are given power to become the sons of God.
Dead faith alone becomes nothing but dead faith alone.
Inclined. Not committed.
Faith alone is the gospel for the double hearted.
It's not just a 'sign' but verifiable proof to others, if not to ourselves.
And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
Milktoast theology. "I know I do bad things, but my heart is still good."
Man looks on the outward appearance only, but God sees the heart.
God not only judges the outward works, but also the heart.
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
God does not look past adultery, in order to try and find a faithful heart.
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.
There's nothing genuine nor true about faith alone, other than the fact that it's dead.
Abraham was not justified and called the friend of God, until after he had offered up Isaac.
Man speaks of genuine faith can be alone without works. God speaks of genuine faith can only be with works.
Man's doctrine opposing Scripture will neither save, justify, nor raise him up to life in the last day.
I have. Just the usual faith alone bromides.
Faith without works is body without spirit. Rotting dead flesh.
The faith alone gospel is for hearers only, and the old man self-justified only by words.
My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
Romans 5:5 kjv
5. And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
The love of God is the love that chastens when needed or hugs us to encourage us. Rod and staff love.
Hebrews 12:6 kjv
6. For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Galatians 5:17 kjv
17. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
You might want to use other translations.
Mississippi redneck
eddif
Ask Jonah about a boat that goes to the bottom. Great fish.
We call them submarines.
We are buried with Christ.
Romans 6:4 kjv
4. Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Mississippi redneck
eddif
We call them submarines.
We are buried with Christ.
Romans 6:4 kjv
4. Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Mississippi redneck
eddif
That was a long-winded post. I'm not sure that I am going to answer all of it, except to say,
Gal 4:29, But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:29 (nlt), But you are now being persecuted by those who want you to keep the law, just as Ishmael, the child born by human effort, persecuted Isaac, the child born by the power of the Spirit.
Rom 4:1, What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2, For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3, For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4, Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5, But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6, Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8, Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Eph 2:8, For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9, Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Tit 3:3, For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
Tit 3:4, But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Tit 3:5, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit 3:6, Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Tit 3:7, That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Rom 11:5, Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:6, And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
God gives us a new heart so we can love God with the help of the HS rom 5:5
RBDERRICK
Supporter
Simply returning the courtesy of responding to all your points, even as you did mine.
You didn't answer any of it.
That faith without works is dead, and no man is justified by faith alone.
The main problem with faith alone, is that it's dead without doing it.
Paul condemns works alone without faith, and James condemns faith alone without works.
Paul addresses the error of unbelieving Jews with works alone, and James addresses the error of unrighteous Christians with faith alone.
Simple.
Tenchi
Member
This all mistakes the inevitable for the necessary.
I would suggest memorizing the scriptures in the post that I link you to; beginning with Romans 4:1-8.
here (https://christianforums.net/threads...-through-works-law-keeping.97641/post-1787138).
You might want to do a word study on v23 and find out what anomia means....lawlessness/Torahlessness, 1st John explains what sin is....Torahlessness....1st John 3:4...Everyone who commits sin is guilty of lawlessness/Torahlessness; sin is lawlessness/Torahlessness.