Salvation by grace through faith; not through works / law-keeping.

[gordon777]

All the knowledge that people have, what value is it all, such as all that is constantly talked about on your thread so far ?

The Pharisees had lots of knowledge, they strove with Christ, asking questions they believed could not be answered against them.

They are an example of much discussion ( always questioning with Christ) but of Christ always correcting them.

Christ also observed them, so we see they are talk only, ( the wisdom of this world that comes to nothing.) because they say words, and do nothing, they also do all their works to be seen of men, boasting the scriptures they wore, loving the chief seats and uppermost rooms. ( pride of men.)



John 8:5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

Matthew 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,

 

[gordon777]

Faith works by love, that is why the fruit of the Spirit is love and faith.

That God may grant to be strengthened with might by His Spirit in the inner man, for Christ to dwell in our hearts by faith, being rooted and grounded in love, to comprehend and to know the love of Christ, ( His rising from the dead for us) which passes knowledge ( the wisdom of this world.) to be filled with all the fulness of God.

Peace to the brothers, with love and faith.

Put on the joint breastplate of peace and love, and for a helmet, the hope of salvation.

it does not matter if you guys have one opinion, this way, or another that way, etc, ( the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God.) what matters is that we believe in the testimony given by God, or we show works of the flesh, instead. ( no love joy peace.) Manifest is that the variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envying, are all anyone can see in the topic that supposedly says it is for FAITH.




Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Ephesians 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

Ephesians 6:23 Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.


1 Thessalonians 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

 

[gordon777]

The Pharisees also never stopped what they were, to never hear the rebuke to believe in the righteousness of God, instead they go about, ( as this forum) to establish themselves.

Just because people claim they are Christian, do they think they have some sort of right now, to do the very same as the Pharisees, and never have any shame.. ( they are manifested to all men for the same FOLLY.)


2 Timothy 3:9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.

Jude 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

 

[donadams]

Highway54 said:
The Bible states very clearly that salvation (the gift of everlasting life) is a gift Rom 6:23

A free gift yes but eternal or everlasting life does not mean “salvation”

It means we are by “faith and baptism” united to Christ by grace, the divine life of God, which is love, (God is love) in a state of unity and grace with God and his communion of saints thru Jesus Christ!

No man is saved until the end
There are 20 plus verses stating this here are a few Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13
Thanks

 

[RBDERRICK]

This all mistakes the inevitable for the necessary.

If it were inevitable that all believers do the word, then James wouldn't warn against being hearers only.

Faith alone teachers do away with the necessary doing to be saved unto the end.

It's the oldest lie in Christianity of sinning by grace. James 1-2 corrects it.

 

[RBDERRICK]

I would suggest memorizing the scriptures in the post that I link you to; beginning with Romans 4:1-8.

here (https://christianforums.net/threads...-through-works-law-keeping.97641/post-1787138).

Obviously memorizing Scripture doesn't help anyone to do the word and the truth. Nor to teach the faith of Jesus unto righteousness. Memorized Scripture can still be corrupted.

Faith alone is dead like a goal without doing anything to have it.

Faith alone is for hearers only, that now have a knowledge of the truth by hearing alone, without doing it.

God is a doer, not just a thinker.

My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

Sons that do not the truth are stillborn, and grow not.

If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

 

[Tenchi]

If it were inevitable that all believers do the word, then James wouldn't warn against being hearers only.

Faith alone teachers do away with the necessary doing to be saved unto the end.

It's the oldest lie in Christianity of sinning by grace. James 1-2 corrects it.

What I mean is that folks who espouse a works-salvation doctrine do so often because they are making the inevitable fruit of the indwelling Spirit necessary to salvation. In other words, they make the result, or product, of being saved the means to being saved. You see, if the born-again person is in a spiritually-nourishing and healthy circumstance, inevitably they will produce, or manifest, the life of the Spirit. But a born-again person may be exposed to false teaching and teachers and to the influence of carnal, or false, believers; they may be left undiscipled, ignorant of the truths and promises that shape their walk with God and thus starved of vital, daily fellowship with God; they may struggle fiercely against long-established, sinful patterns of thought and behavior, that mire them in spiritual and moral failure and frustration. Under these circumstances, the transformative work and fruit of the Spirit is hindered and the inevitable fruit of his presence within the born-again person may be prevented. This doesn't mean he is not within the believer, however; only that the conditions for healthy spiritual growth are lacking.

And so, in Scripture, we read of the believers at Corinth who were "carnal babes in Christ," God's "temple," His "buildings" and "field" but who were divisive, prideful, selfish and even grossly sexually wicked (1 Corinthians 3, 5, 6,11). We read, too, in the book of Hebrews of born-again people who ought to have been teachers of the faith but who had remained "milk drinkers," unable to digest the "meat" of the faith, constantly "laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works." (Hebrews 5:12-14; 6:1-2) In Paul's letter to the born-again believers in the province of Galatia, he described them as those who had "begun in the Spirit" but were, under the influence of legalistic Judaizers, trying to be "perfected by the flesh." (Galatians 3:1-5). Paul criticized them sharply for their foolishness but repeatedly described them, not as those who had lost their salvation, but as "brethren," as those who were "in Christ," and "sons of God." (Galatians 1:11, 3:26, 4:6-7, 4:31, etc.)

It is quite possible, then, for a genuinely born-again person not to be living like one. Like an apple tree that is too young to bear fruit, or is growing in infertile ground, or is lacking sufficient moisture, or is afflicted with pests or disease and so cannot bear fruit, the born-again person also may dwell in circumstances that hinder " bearing fruit." The lack of spiritual fruit in the life of a born-again believer no more means s/he is unsaved, however, than that a lack of apples on an apple tree means the apple tree is not an apple tree.

 

[justbyfaith]

Highway54 said:
The Bible states very clearly that salvation (the gift of everlasting life) is a gift Rom 6:23

A free gift yes but eternal or everlasting life does not mean “salvation”

It means we are by “faith and baptism” united to Christ by grace, the divine life of God, which is love, (God is love) in a state of unity and grace with God and his communion of saints thru Jesus Christ!

No man is saved until the end
There are 20 plus verses stating this here are a few Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13
Thanks

In John 5:24, it should be clear that everlasting life begins at first faith and that the person "shall not come into condemnation"

In 1 John 5:13 and Romans 8:16, we can know that we know that we know that we "have" everlasting life...right now and in the present moment.

Obviously memorizing Scripture doesn't help anyone to do the word and the truth. Nor to teach the faith of Jesus unto righteousness. Memorized Scripture can still be corrupted.

Faith alone is dead like a goal without doing anything to have it.

Faith alone is for hearers only, that now have a knowledge of the truth by hearing alone, without doing it.

God is a doer, not just a thinker.

My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

Sons that do not the truth are stillborn, and grow not.

If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

Memorizing the scripture that I have prescribed for you to memorize will help you to hide that scripture in your heart so that you will not be deceived by false doctrine that is contrary to it.

What I mean is that folks who espouse a works-salvation doctrine do so often because they are making the inevitable fruit of the indwelling Spirit necessary to salvation. In other words, they make the result, or product, of being saved the means to being saved. You see, if the born-again person is in a spiritually-nourishing and healthy circumstance, inevitably they will produce, or manifest, the life of the Spirit. But a born-again person may be exposed to false teaching and teachers and to the influence of carnal, or false, believers; they may be left undiscipled, ignorant of the truths and promises that shape their walk with God and thus starved of vital, daily fellowship with God; they may struggle fiercely against long-established, sinful patterns of thought and behavior, that mire them in spiritual and moral failure and frustration. Under these circumstances, the transformative work and fruit of the Spirit is hindered and the inevitable fruit of his presence within the born-again person may be prevented. This doesn't mean he is not within the believer, however; only that the conditions for healthy spiritual growth are lacking.

It is quite possible, then, for a genuinely born-again person not to be living like one. Like an apple tree that is too young to bear fruit, or is growing in infertile ground, or is lacking sufficient moisture, or is afflicted with pests or disease and so cannot bear fruit, the born-again person also may dwell in circumstances that hinder " bearing fruit." The lack of spiritual fruit in the life of a born-again believer no more means s/he is unsaved, however, than that a lack of apples on an apple tree means the apple tree is not an apple tree.

It bears witness to what I spoke of at another forum, that soil types #2 and #3 in the parable of the sower are living plants and therefore can be said to have spiritual life and are therefore, for all practical purposes "born again". However, it should be clear that they are not of the elect.

 

[RBDERRICK]

What I mean is that folks who espouse a works-salvation doctrine

It's more accurately God's works by faith justification.

Faith alone doctrine separates faith from works, which God condemns as dead faith alone

do so often because they are making the inevitable fruit of the indwelling Spirit necessary to salvation.

It's necessary to justification.

And for the second time, bearing fruit is not inevitable. Jesus says His branches not bearing fruit are cut off as dead (John 15) It's the result of having dead faith alone without works of Christ.

It is necessary to first add Christ's works to our faith to ensure we bear fruit, and not be found barren and dead. (2 Peter 1)

In other words, they make the result, or product, of being saved the means to being saved.

You can call it what you wish, but without the works of Christ added to our faith, our faith is dead, and we are cut off from Christ's vine.

You see, if the born-again person is in a spiritually-nourishing and healthy circumstance, inevitably they will produce, or manifest, the life of the Spirit

If we go on to do those works of Christ necessary to become sons of God.

But a born-again person may be exposed to false teaching and teachers and to the influence of carnal, or false, believers; they may be left undiscipled, ignorant of the truths and promises that shape their walk with God and thus starved of vital, daily fellowship with God; they may struggle fiercely against long-established, sinful patterns of thought and behavior, that mire them in spiritual and moral failure and frustration. Under these circumstances, the transformative work and fruit of the Spirit is hindered and the inevitable fruit of his presence within the born-again person may be prevented. This doesn't mean he is not within the believer, however; only that the conditions for healthy spiritual growth are lacking.

I.e. dead and in danger of being cut off from the vine.

But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

Just because being double-hearted in the faith is possible, it doesn't make it inevitable nor justified.

And so, in Scripture, we read of the believers at Corinth who were "carnal babes in Christ," God's "temple," His "buildings" and "field" but who were divisive, prideful, selfish and even grossly sexually wicked (1 Corinthians 3, 5, 6,11).

The ones being so are cut off from the company of the saints, to shame them into repentance.

If not, then they are cut off from the vine by God.

We read, too, in the book of Hebrews of born-again people who ought to have been teachers of the faith but who had remained "milk drinkers," unable to digest the "meat" of the faith, constantly "laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works." (Hebrews 5:12-14; 6:1-2)

And if they repent not, then they become the cursed field of briars and thorns rejected by God. (Heb 6)

In Paul's letter to the born-again believers in the province of Galatia, he described them as those who had "begun in the Spirit" but were, under the influence of legalistic Judaizers, trying to be "perfected by the flesh." (Galatians 3:1-5).

And Paul feared for them running in vain, and exhorted them to return to the Spirit by hearing of grace, that Christ be formed again in them.

Paul criticized them sharply for their foolishness but repeatedly described them, not as those who had lost their salvation, but as "brethren," as those who were "in Christ," and "sons of God." (Galatians 1:11, 3:26, 4:6-7, 4:31, etc.)

If so, then both Judaizers and the Judaized remain brethren and sons of God.

How can the Judaizers be condemned, while those becoming like them are not?

Jesus of course says they all go into the ditch, not just the leaders. (Matthew 15)(Luke 6)

It is quite possible, then, for a genuinely born-again person not to be living like one.

True. Double heartedness was always a condemned error among the people of God. And God still commands repentance with a whole heart.

Paul no doubt experienced it for himself in Romans 7; however when He became whole-hearted by grace, then he was delivered into the true liberty of the sons of God, that walk only after the Spirit in Romans 8.

No more condemnation by faith alone, while also walking after the flesh, is of course false.

Like an apple tree that is too young to bear fruit, or is growing in infertile ground, or is lacking sufficient moisture, or is afflicted with pests or disease and so cannot bear fruit, the born-again person also may dwell in circumstances that hinder " bearing fruit."

It's called continuing in unrighteous works of the flesh, and those that are doing such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Without respect of persons.

And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

The lack of spiritual fruit in the life of a born-again believer no more means s/he is unsaved, however, than that a lack of apples on an apple tree means the apple tree is not an apple tree.

This is a faith alone vain imagination, that thinks God still knows them as apple trees without the apples.

Jesus says otherwise, that that the tree is known by the fruit. The Lord does not know any fruitless tree, especially not as His own.

The fruitless trees are cursed and cut down. (Luke 13:7) (Mark 11:13-14)

Do you believe it is possible for any Christian to live righteously and holily and daily walk as Jesus walked on earth?

 

[RBDERRICK]

No man is saved through works alone, nor through faith alone, because neither is by grace of God.

Faith without works is not God's faith. Works with faith is not God's righteousness.

 

[Butch5]

Rom 9:30, What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 9:31, But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32, Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33, As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:1, Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Rom 10:2, For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3, For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4, For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Here in this passage we find that the Gentiles did not follow a law of righteousness and yet obtained the righteousness of faith;

While Israel attempted to earn righteousness through law-keeping and could not attain to righteousness.

Because they stumbled at a stumbling stone.

This stumbling stone is the law. It is also Christ.

Because, when people have faith in Jesus, they inadvertently keep the law (Galatians 5:22-23), some ascertain from this that it is keeping the law that makes a person Christian.

That is not the case. What makes a person Christian is his faith.

But because it seems that Christianity is exemplified by those who keep the law, some have determined that in the keeping of a set of do's and don'ts, they can make themselves Christian.

A Christian is someone who has been bought and redeemed through the blood of the Lamb; and this is only acquired by faith. No amount of law-keeping, apart from faith, will ever procure it.

Israel, going about to establish their own righteousness by attempting to keep the law, have not submitted themselves to the righteousness of God.

The righteousness of God comes about by faith.

Rom 1:17, For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

He didn't say "a" law. The Law he is talking about is the Mosaic Law. Just because they weren't saved by the Mosaic Law doesn't mean there is no law Christians. There is the Law of Christ

 

[Free]

No man is saved through works alone, nor through faith alone, because neither is by grace of God.

Faith without works is not God's faith. Works with faith is not God's righteousness.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (ESV)

Is Paul not saying that no works, at all, are involved in our salvation? Works are the evidence of our faith, not a means of salvation, or more properly, justification.

 

[justbyfaith]

He didn't say "a" law. The Law he is talking about is the Mosaic Law. Just because they weren't saved by the Mosaic Law doesn't mean there is no law Christians. There is the Law of Christ

As believers, we are under the law to Christ (1 Corinthians 9:21 (kjv), Hebrews 8:8-10, Romans 8:4, Romans 8:7, Romans 7:6, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 13:8-10; Romans 5:5).

The law of Christ is inclusive of the least of the commandments in the Old Testament (Matthew 5:17-20).

I have stated my case that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament in certain posts in this forum.

If you are coming to God by means of your personal merit, your works, your law-keepimg, or your obedience; thinking that you are saved through such,

Then God requires of you that you obey the laws of the Old and New Testaments perfectly from conception into eternity (Galatians 3:10, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48).

 

[justbyfaith]

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (ESV)

Is Paul not saying that no works, at all, are involved in our salvation? Works are the evidence of our faith, not a means of salvation, or more properly, justification.

However, before men, even Abraham was justified by works (James 2:21-24).

Just not before God (Romans 4:2).

 

[Free]

Just not before God (Romans 4:2).

But that is what we're discussing.

 

[justbyfaith]

But that is what we're discussing.

Ok...I thought we were discussing justification period.

 

[Free]

Ok...I thought we were discussing justification period.

I was addressing a post speaking of "salvation," which is having been justified (declared righteous) by the grace of God.

 

[justbyfaith]

I was addressing a post speaking of "salvation," which is having been justified (declared righteous) by the grace of God.

James speaks of being declared righteous before men; for that faith without works is dead.

What I am saying is pertinent to the subject at hand.

 

[gordon777]

However, before men, even Abraham was justified by works (James 2:21-24).

Just not before God (Romans 4:2).

Pharisees do their works before men, Abraham did not do as the Pharisees.


Matthew 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,


Romans 4 speaks of believing God, as per Genesis 14:4-6, before Isaac was conceived...



Genesis 14:4 And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.


Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.



James 2:21-24, is clear that this is after Isaac was born, when God tempted/tried Abraham as per Genesis 22, ( the trying of our faith. James 1:3.) and as James sums up, it is Abraham being justified by works, faith was working with his works to make faith perfect.



Genesis 22:1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.
2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

James 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

James 1:4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

 

[gordon777]

Now we can understand how patience has her perfect work in us, so we be entire wanting nothing, ( not being entire is not being justified.)

Faith works by love, our work of faith, the work of faith with power, knowing our works to not deny the faith of Christ, our works charity, service and faith and patience, and the last to be more than the first.

It has to be perfect, holding fast and overcoming the world, keeping the works of Christ until the end.



Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

1 Thessalonians 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

2 Thessalonians 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

Revelation 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Revelation 2:19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

Revelation 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: