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cia11
Guest
Ha! Well there are many responses to that statement, but as I have to go to work now, I'll leave them for another time :wink:
Christian Forums
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Guest
Guest
The Bible as a whole makes no claim for divine authorship. Although many passages are quoted in God's name, the five books of Moses (Genesis through Deuteronomy) and even the New Testament never assert that their entire content is divine. So the slippery slope wreaks havoc with arguments about biblical authorship. If one word, just one word, of the Bible is in fact of human origin, then how can one defend the divinity of any of it? If one word, why not two, or 10, or the whole book?Dan Edwin said:
The content validity of the Bible, especially it's divinity, does not mean that God does not exist... it just means that people should think carefully before submitting to the writings of the Bible. If I feel I am inspired by God, and God is speaking to me, then I write what God spoke, would that be submitted into the Bible? How would you know if God is speaking to ME, and how do you know that God spoke to Matthew and Paul?
turnorburn
Member
:n00b: Where are you getting your information. Questioning whether the bible is Devinne just proves that it is. The scripture reads that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. My question is, who would you rather believe :o
In His Service,
turnorburn
In His Service,
turnorburn
K
KevJohn7
Guest
Allow me to correct your blasphemous post.
2 Timothy 3:16-17
16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
T
TyCowboy
Guest
2 Peter 1:21 also seems to suggest the same...that the Bible is of Divine authorship.
Ty.
Ty.
turnorburn
Member
:-D II Peter, what a beautiful book, but then aren't they all. Please allow me to add a few verses...
16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
V
VaultZero4Me
Guest
My response to this is for people to question why the response to the sin (again, this is me speaking in the viewpoint of Christian), is treated any differently than the sin of gluttony.
I have never, ever, ever seen a Christian group picketing at a buffet line. I say this not in jest, but in earnest. Sin, according to the Bible, is sin. Overeating and becoming obese because of it is no different in the context of Christian sin than homosexuality.
If the Christian reaction to homosexuality was purely based on it being considered a sin, it would be treated no differently than the sin of gluttony.
But it is not treated the same. In fact, I am sure many of you here have pastors who may be considered overweight. The same pastors likely visit the local buffet and over eat. But, you let them pastor. Now, would you let someone who is a gay Christian pastor your church? Probably not, though that is just my opinion so I could be wrong.
If, you are not treating it the same as other Christian sins, then I believe that the responsible thing to do would be to try and understand why.
I agree that the Bible talks against the sin of same sex relations, and there is little to no support for the opposite position. But, I do not think that you can find scriptural support to show me that a Christian who is homosexual is any different than a Christian who is destroying God's temple by eating foods that are bad for them and are obese.
If you believe that a homosexual cannot be a Christian, than you have to be biased to believe that an overweight person who is eating KFC on a regular basis cannot be a Christian either. Unless I am missing a scripture in the NT that specifically singles out homosexuality against all other sins.
If you are a Christian and obese and are eating a McDonalds cheese burger, is it scriptually accurate to view yourself to be any different in the eyes of God than a Christian homosexual having a sexual encounter with a member of the same sex?
I have never, ever, ever seen a Christian group picketing at a buffet line. I say this not in jest, but in earnest. Sin, according to the Bible, is sin. Overeating and becoming obese because of it is no different in the context of Christian sin than homosexuality.
If the Christian reaction to homosexuality was purely based on it being considered a sin, it would be treated no differently than the sin of gluttony.
But it is not treated the same. In fact, I am sure many of you here have pastors who may be considered overweight. The same pastors likely visit the local buffet and over eat. But, you let them pastor. Now, would you let someone who is a gay Christian pastor your church? Probably not, though that is just my opinion so I could be wrong.
If, you are not treating it the same as other Christian sins, then I believe that the responsible thing to do would be to try and understand why.
I agree that the Bible talks against the sin of same sex relations, and there is little to no support for the opposite position. But, I do not think that you can find scriptural support to show me that a Christian who is homosexual is any different than a Christian who is destroying God's temple by eating foods that are bad for them and are obese.
If you believe that a homosexual cannot be a Christian, than you have to be biased to believe that an overweight person who is eating KFC on a regular basis cannot be a Christian either. Unless I am missing a scripture in the NT that specifically singles out homosexuality against all other sins.
If you are a Christian and obese and are eating a McDonalds cheese burger, is it scriptually accurate to view yourself to be any different in the eyes of God than a Christian homosexual having a sexual encounter with a member of the same sex?
Vic C.
Member
Ah, your basic garden variety secular wisdom. 8-) People don't come to these forums condoning gluttony. They do come here to condone homosexuality and specifically homosexual acts, which, btw, is the real sin here. Come here praising gluttony and you will get responses for sure! Besides, who are we to determine if a person is overweight due to overeating or from a medical condition like thyroid issues, etc. Lets not throw out the hypocrisy card against all Christians. That's what unbelievers like to do to us. Been there, heard and seen that!
You think we're "picking" on them because they may be easy targets. Well no, we see the ramifications of the act of homosexuality and it's not pretty and has nothing to do with love or the lack of us loving them.
You can't compare gluttony to homosexuality. Gluttony doesn't negate the prime reason why God created sexual intercourse; gluttony doesn't create havoc by breaking up families (thinking of a recent Governor here in NJ); gluttony doesn't cause or spread STDs...
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VaultZero4Me
Guest
No, its just a basic garden variety of logic.
If you see someone eating unhealthy and fattening or carby food in portions that are above that what is needed to sustain life, you cannot logically conclude that there is a thyroid problem. I specifically was addressing this to people you see being gluttons.
True, I do not see it as immoral, nor do I pretend to see it that way myself, I am just trying to put it into a Christian perspective.
And what is the scriptural basis to view homosexuality as the real sin and gluttony as not?
Never said why one should be exalted, I said how can you scripturally support treating one sin differently than the other?
Thats a straw man. I never said it applied to all Christians. Only to the ones that regard the sin of homosexuality differently than gluttony.
Straw man. I specifically said that the person was gluttonous. Never said ALL overweight people.
Straw man. I never included a reasoning why. In fact, the only implication was that there is another contributing factor outside of scripture. Never identified it. I do not even think it is the reason quoted above. But what I believe is irrelevant. My point, was how do you scripturally support allowing the treatment of the sin of homosexuality to be different than overeating.
Yes, because it has nothing to do with intercourse....
It does negate the prime reason that God created food, which is for substance. If you are eating something just because it tastes good, and not because you require that much food, it is a sin of the flesh.
In regards to homosexuality, you cannot treat breaking up a home due to it. If the person was unfaithful, that is an entirely different sin. I am not talking about adultery.
Also, in fact gluttony does. Ever heard of someone dying from heart disease, diabetes, stroke, at a young age and leaving behind a family? I think that it is certainly obvious that gluttony does in fact break up families.
Of course it does not spread Sexually Transmitted Disease. It does not involve sex.
In fact, homosexuality does not spread STDs. Having multiple sex partners spreads the diseases. Hetero or Homo. Chastity is not the issue here.
BUT, gluttony does cause disease. It causes the things I said above (Heart Disease, Diabetes, Stroke). In fact, if you add up those categories, it probably is one of the leading contributing factors to an early death in the US. It greatly surpasses any disease that can be contracted in regards to multiple sex partners.
Again, I am not promoting homosexuality. I am postulating a question as to how someone can support the idea that the sin is any greater or different than the sin of gluttony. I agree that within the Bible, there is little to no support to the idea that homosexuality is not a sin.
My direct question is, under these conditions, why is there more outcry against homosexuals than over eaters. How can a church condone having a preacher who is overweight due to over eating, and condemn a church for having a pastor who practices homosexuality. What scriptural evidence supports that position? What scriptural evidence would support someone being received into heaven who consistently over eats over a person who consistently practices homosexuality.
Generalization.
I am arguing consistency here.
If you see someone eating unhealthy and fattening or carby food in portions that are above that what is needed to sustain life, you cannot logically conclude that there is a thyroid problem. I specifically was addressing this to people you see being gluttons.
True, I do not see it as immoral, nor do I pretend to see it that way myself, I am just trying to put it into a Christian perspective.
And what is the scriptural basis to view homosexuality as the real sin and gluttony as not?
Never said why one should be exalted, I said how can you scripturally support treating one sin differently than the other?
Thats a straw man. I never said it applied to all Christians. Only to the ones that regard the sin of homosexuality differently than gluttony.
Straw man. I specifically said that the person was gluttonous. Never said ALL overweight people.
Straw man. I never included a reasoning why. In fact, the only implication was that there is another contributing factor outside of scripture. Never identified it. I do not even think it is the reason quoted above. But what I believe is irrelevant. My point, was how do you scripturally support allowing the treatment of the sin of homosexuality to be different than overeating.
Yes, because it has nothing to do with intercourse....
It does negate the prime reason that God created food, which is for substance. If you are eating something just because it tastes good, and not because you require that much food, it is a sin of the flesh.
In regards to homosexuality, you cannot treat breaking up a home due to it. If the person was unfaithful, that is an entirely different sin. I am not talking about adultery.
Also, in fact gluttony does. Ever heard of someone dying from heart disease, diabetes, stroke, at a young age and leaving behind a family? I think that it is certainly obvious that gluttony does in fact break up families.
Of course it does not spread Sexually Transmitted Disease. It does not involve sex.
In fact, homosexuality does not spread STDs. Having multiple sex partners spreads the diseases. Hetero or Homo. Chastity is not the issue here.
BUT, gluttony does cause disease. It causes the things I said above (Heart Disease, Diabetes, Stroke). In fact, if you add up those categories, it probably is one of the leading contributing factors to an early death in the US. It greatly surpasses any disease that can be contracted in regards to multiple sex partners.
Again, I am not promoting homosexuality. I am postulating a question as to how someone can support the idea that the sin is any greater or different than the sin of gluttony. I agree that within the Bible, there is little to no support to the idea that homosexuality is not a sin.
My direct question is, under these conditions, why is there more outcry against homosexuals than over eaters. How can a church condone having a preacher who is overweight due to over eating, and condemn a church for having a pastor who practices homosexuality. What scriptural evidence supports that position? What scriptural evidence would support someone being received into heaven who consistently over eats over a person who consistently practices homosexuality.
Generalization.
I am arguing consistency here.
B
bibleberean
Guest
God sees some sin as more serious than others. The practice of a man lying with a man and having an unnatural, perverted and disgusting sex with him God calls an "abomination" (disgusting and perverted)
Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
There are even degrees of sin for example:
2 Kings 21:11 Because Manasseh king of Judah hath done these abominations, and hath done wickedly above all that the Amorites did, which were before him, and hath made Judah also to sin with his idols:
2 Kings 21:12 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Behold, I am bringing such evil upon Jerusalem and Judah, that whosoever heareth of it, both his ears shall tingle.
Surely there were Kings that commited sins of a "lessor nature" before Manasseh.
Jesus made a distinction about greater sins before Pontius Pilot.
John 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
Even common sense (which people lack when they are trying to justify sin) dictates that some sins are worse than others.
Surely eating one bite too many at dinner is not a serious is molesting and murdering a child.
Is this rocket science?
Homosexual relationships are unnatural and I have scriptural proof.
God "gave these people over to greater evil" for not retaining Him in their thinking. He didn't do that to people who struggled with sin but to those who placed twisted human philosophy over God's clear commandments.
Romans 1:26-27 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Please folks. Don't insult God and those of us with common sense by even remotely suggesting that perversion and murder are on the same level as exaggerating the size of the fish that got away.
One reason many people like to push this unbiblical philosophy that all sin is on the same level and should be treated as such is because they have secret or maybe open sins of their own they want to brush aside.
Maybe they can justify commiting adultery once a year since their pastor was seen eating too much turkey on Thanksgiving. I mean after all "sin is sin".
Paul made sure that Chrisitians knew that they should "not even eat" with people who practiced forinication.
1 Corinthians 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
1 Corinthians 5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
Paul according to the degenerate philosophy of some should have said, "Hey don't worry about this guy having a relationship with his father's wife. Let's be consistent here. I know Fred over ate last week and sin is sin. If we are going to put this guy out of the church Fred needs to go too."
Give me a break! :crazyeyes:
Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
There are even degrees of sin for example:
2 Kings 21:11 Because Manasseh king of Judah hath done these abominations, and hath done wickedly above all that the Amorites did, which were before him, and hath made Judah also to sin with his idols:
2 Kings 21:12 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Behold, I am bringing such evil upon Jerusalem and Judah, that whosoever heareth of it, both his ears shall tingle.
Surely there were Kings that commited sins of a "lessor nature" before Manasseh.
Jesus made a distinction about greater sins before Pontius Pilot.
John 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
Even common sense (which people lack when they are trying to justify sin) dictates that some sins are worse than others.
Surely eating one bite too many at dinner is not a serious is molesting and murdering a child.
Is this rocket science?
Homosexual relationships are unnatural and I have scriptural proof.
God "gave these people over to greater evil" for not retaining Him in their thinking. He didn't do that to people who struggled with sin but to those who placed twisted human philosophy over God's clear commandments.
Romans 1:26-27 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Please folks. Don't insult God and those of us with common sense by even remotely suggesting that perversion and murder are on the same level as exaggerating the size of the fish that got away.
One reason many people like to push this unbiblical philosophy that all sin is on the same level and should be treated as such is because they have secret or maybe open sins of their own they want to brush aside.
Maybe they can justify commiting adultery once a year since their pastor was seen eating too much turkey on Thanksgiving. I mean after all "sin is sin".
Paul made sure that Chrisitians knew that they should "not even eat" with people who practiced forinication.
1 Corinthians 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
1 Corinthians 5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
Paul according to the degenerate philosophy of some should have said, "Hey don't worry about this guy having a relationship with his father's wife. Let's be consistent here. I know Fred over ate last week and sin is sin. If we are going to put this guy out of the church Fred needs to go too."
Give me a break! :crazyeyes:
V
VaultZero4Me
Guest
Ok, first off, if you pull your arguments from the OT, you face the problems mentioned before. If you disregard parts of the OT, you have to disregard it ALL in regards to the law. Otherwise you are playing God at that point in interpreting the scriptures. That is certainly a dangerous line to tread. So I will disregard everything quoted out of the OT, unless you tell me that you follow Jewish law.
Secondly,
You are taking that entirely out of context to fit your view. It in no way implies that Christ was speaking on a view that God views any sin any different than any other. You are interpreting his message at that point.
Thirdly,
You have not demonstrated this to be scripturally based, therefore it is YOUR SUBJECTIVE opinion. I never asked what you personally felt. I said how do you scripturally justify your position. I am getting to the root of your opinion. Is it scriptural to view homosexuality as worse than gluttony, or is it your personal bias and prejudice that persuade you.
As for the reference to the pedophilia and murder, those are certainly viewed in our opinion as being worse than over eating. I never wanted to know your opinion. Just if it were to be actually based on scripture.
But, I commend you attempt to appeal to emotions by keeping one original end of the comparison, and replacing the other side (homosexual) with killing and raping children. That is called slight of hand debating ;)
You only established that in YOUR OPINION it is. But not in the opinion of God through the Bible.
No, actually you give me a break. You threw up your own views, took scripture out of context, used appeal to emotions, used straw man arguments, slight of hand, and various other fallacies to try and persuade an audience that you were proving anything beyond what your opinion is.
Again, the disclaimer is that I am not trying to say that within the Christian faith homosexuality is not a sin. I just want someone to argue to me where the scriptural support is in treating it any differently than a someone who is over weight and eating fried foods in excess. Why is there more outcry within the Christian community (again not true for every single individual) against homosexuality than gluttony? Where is the scriptual basis for that?
No one has succeeded yet.
Secondly,
You are taking that entirely out of context to fit your view. It in no way implies that Christ was speaking on a view that God views any sin any different than any other. You are interpreting his message at that point.
Thirdly,
You have not demonstrated this to be scripturally based, therefore it is YOUR SUBJECTIVE opinion. I never asked what you personally felt. I said how do you scripturally justify your position. I am getting to the root of your opinion. Is it scriptural to view homosexuality as worse than gluttony, or is it your personal bias and prejudice that persuade you.
As for the reference to the pedophilia and murder, those are certainly viewed in our opinion as being worse than over eating. I never wanted to know your opinion. Just if it were to be actually based on scripture.
But, I commend you attempt to appeal to emotions by keeping one original end of the comparison, and replacing the other side (homosexual) with killing and raping children. That is called slight of hand debating ;)
That establishes a basis for it to be considered a sin. I never argued that. That is another straw man. I said how can you scripturally base a view that it is any worse of a sin than gluttony. That has not been established.
You only established that in YOUR OPINION it is. But not in the opinion of God through the Bible.
No, actually you give me a break. You threw up your own views, took scripture out of context, used appeal to emotions, used straw man arguments, slight of hand, and various other fallacies to try and persuade an audience that you were proving anything beyond what your opinion is.
Again, the disclaimer is that I am not trying to say that within the Christian faith homosexuality is not a sin. I just want someone to argue to me where the scriptural support is in treating it any differently than a someone who is over weight and eating fried foods in excess. Why is there more outcry within the Christian community (again not true for every single individual) against homosexuality than gluttony? Where is the scriptual basis for that?
No one has succeeded yet.
B
bibleberean
Guest
"Ok, first off, if you pull your arguments from the OT, you face the problems mentioned before. If you disregard parts of the OT, you have to disregard it ALL in regards to the law. Otherwise you are playing God at that point in interpreting the scriptures. That is certainly a dangerous line to tread. So I will disregard everything quoted out of the OT, unless you tell me that you follow Jewish law."
bibleberean responds,
First of all what you are saying isn't true.
We can use the Old Testament as well as the New Testament to make a point.
People who acutually know and read the bible understand this.
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
The bible tells us what todays Christians are to obey as opposed to distinct laws for Israel.
Fornication was forbidden in the OT and it is forbidden in the NT.
Acts 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
Acts 15:25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
Acts 15:26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Acts 15:27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Acts 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
Same sex is still a sin and filthy one at that. In a bible believing Christian forum with a clear statement of faith you should expect that.
My post was clear as were the scriptures.
Homosexuality is a serious sin and that is the way it is....
I think Jesus is coming soon. I am looking forward to that. How about you?
bibleberean responds,
First of all what you are saying isn't true.
We can use the Old Testament as well as the New Testament to make a point.
People who acutually know and read the bible understand this.
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
The bible tells us what todays Christians are to obey as opposed to distinct laws for Israel.
Fornication was forbidden in the OT and it is forbidden in the NT.
Acts 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
Acts 15:25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
Acts 15:26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Acts 15:27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Acts 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
Same sex is still a sin and filthy one at that. In a bible believing Christian forum with a clear statement of faith you should expect that.
My post was clear as were the scriptures.
Homosexuality is a serious sin and that is the way it is....
I think Jesus is coming soon. I am looking forward to that. How about you?
I
Imagican
Guest
VaultZero4Me ,
If you will read Romans you will see NT answers to the questions that you ask. YES there ARE sins that are WORSE than others. And ANYONE that KNOWS Christ and has committed sin with conviction KNOWS this as well.
There are sins that simply impede one's walk and then there is sin that is able to destroy the soul.
ALL sin but ONE can be forgiven. But, for some, sin will harden their hearts until they are NO LONGER ABLE TO ASK. We were warned of the perils of such and WHY. To ignore this is to show complete and utter foolishness. Living for The World IS certainly able to blind even the brightest of mankind to the Truths that BE. And it oft seems that the brightest are the EASIEST led AWAY from The Truth. For the SIMPLICITY of Christ is just NOT ENOUGH for many.
MEC
If you will read Romans you will see NT answers to the questions that you ask. YES there ARE sins that are WORSE than others. And ANYONE that KNOWS Christ and has committed sin with conviction KNOWS this as well.
There are sins that simply impede one's walk and then there is sin that is able to destroy the soul.
ALL sin but ONE can be forgiven. But, for some, sin will harden their hearts until they are NO LONGER ABLE TO ASK. We were warned of the perils of such and WHY. To ignore this is to show complete and utter foolishness. Living for The World IS certainly able to blind even the brightest of mankind to the Truths that BE. And it oft seems that the brightest are the EASIEST led AWAY from The Truth. For the SIMPLICITY of Christ is just NOT ENOUGH for many.
MEC
B
bibleberean
Guest
Good points Imagician,
No one is arguing there are not other serious sins that should be dealt with.
It seems that homsexuality is one sin that people want to down play as not serious.
Look at the title of this thread. And then people wonder way homsexuality is the focus?
:
I don't see any threads promoting "wife swapping" for sex but if I did I would be making sure that people knew this was a serious sin.
Satan certainly is clever isn't he?
God bless,
Robert
No one is arguing there are not other serious sins that should be dealt with.
It seems that homsexuality is one sin that people want to down play as not serious.
Look at the title of this thread. And then people wonder way homsexuality is the focus?
: I don't see any threads promoting "wife swapping" for sex but if I did I would be making sure that people knew this was a serious sin.
Satan certainly is clever isn't he?
God bless,
Robert
V
VaultZero4Me
Guest
Ok. I never said you couldn’t. Christ used the torah all the time to make points. I said that Christianity established a new covenant with God through Christ (that is the whole basis for your ability to be saved is it not?) Therefore the old law is mad anew with Christ. Therefore you arguments have to come from the NT.
If you believe otherwise, than you are bound to the old law COMPLETELY. That means you have to be a Jew to have a covenant with God, and you have to follow ALL of the laws laid out in it. Isn’t there hundreds?
If you use it to support a view than you are picking and choosing. There is no way around that unless you show me otherwise.
Ok. So I see that it backs up that the NT is against fornication. I will give you one and lump homosexuality in with that since you cannot be married as a homosexual.
Well, I already said that this debate is not on if homosexuality is a sin. I see that clearly laid out in the NT. I have only asked where does it instruct in the new testament that there is a greater sin than another (besides blasphemy), and also includes homosexuality in the upper tier, thus giving you scriptural backing to believe that a homosexual Christian is sinning any worse than a Christian that is consumed by the lust for food?
I never said it wasn’t a sin. I am just asking for you scriptural basis to call it more filthy in the eyes of God than gluttony. A point which you have still failed to prove, outside of YOUR own opinion.
Either I am missing where you are using scripture to back up your claim, or you are making a false statement.
Ok. I never disagreed that it isn’t a sin by the NT.
But, it being more serious than gluttony is not the way it is as far in your proof. You just hold that opinion.
Another attempt of slight at hand again. An ad hom attempt.
This is a serious question within the Christian community. The singling out of the homosexual community over other groups has a negative impact on the Christian community. If it is not scripturally based to single them out, and it causes a negative impact towards Christians, there is a grave danger there. If it can’t be backed up with scripture, you own personal views are detracting from your faith. That my friend would be a sin as well [I can back that up with scripture, but I am assuming you hold that view. If you wish, I can back up that false teachings are an abomination.]
V
VaultZero4Me
Guest
Ok. I have read Romans. I missed it. Would you be so kind to point out where it says that homosexuality is more of a sin that gluttony?
B
bibleberean
Guest
I take issue with the allegation that Christians single out homosexuality.
The fact is homosexuality is being pushed on Christians.
Look at the name of the topic. Is it a shocker that this wicked sin is the focus of our attention.
Gluttony is a serious sin too. No doubt about it. Is eating an extra serving of mash potatoes as serious as eating so much a person become obese and bed ridden?
There is no such thing as moderate amount of perversion with the same sex. You can eat a big plate of spaghetti without necessarily being in sin.
Homsexuality is perverse and unnatural. Eating is not. Eating to an extreme is perverse and unnattural but not eating in and of itself.
Down playing homosexuality has led to so called Christian churches ordaining homosexual ministers etc.
The stand against the this behaviour will not hurt the church. Accepting or tolerating it will.
Paul states.
1 Corinthians 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
I won't keep company with an unrepentant man having sex with his neighbors wife (gee is that in the Old Testament does that mean I have to obey all of it?) and I won't keep company with an unrepentant homosexual either. Struggling with a sin is one thing giving in and defending it is another.
I know people who can drink a glass of wine and stop. I know others who are drunkards. If a person in the church is a drunkard we are not to fellowship with that person until he or she repents and seeks help and puts that sin behind them.
The only reason we are focused on homosexualtiy here is because it is the topic of this thread.
The fact is homosexuality is being pushed on Christians.
Look at the name of the topic. Is it a shocker that this wicked sin is the focus of our attention.
Gluttony is a serious sin too. No doubt about it. Is eating an extra serving of mash potatoes as serious as eating so much a person become obese and bed ridden?
There is no such thing as moderate amount of perversion with the same sex. You can eat a big plate of spaghetti without necessarily being in sin.
Homsexuality is perverse and unnatural. Eating is not. Eating to an extreme is perverse and unnattural but not eating in and of itself.
Down playing homosexuality has led to so called Christian churches ordaining homosexual ministers etc.
The stand against the this behaviour will not hurt the church. Accepting or tolerating it will.
Paul states.
1 Corinthians 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
I won't keep company with an unrepentant man having sex with his neighbors wife (gee is that in the Old Testament does that mean I have to obey all of it?) and I won't keep company with an unrepentant homosexual either. Struggling with a sin is one thing giving in and defending it is another.
I know people who can drink a glass of wine and stop. I know others who are drunkards. If a person in the church is a drunkard we are not to fellowship with that person until he or she repents and seeks help and puts that sin behind them.
The only reason we are focused on homosexualtiy here is because it is the topic of this thread.
V
VaultZero4Me
Guest
Um. Ok. Do a meta search on “Christian Anti Gayâ€Â.
Then do a meta search on “Christian Anti Gluttonâ€Â
The proof is in the pudding my dear friend. I never said YOU did that. I do not know you. I asked can anyone scripturally support the singling out of homosexuals over gluttons. No one has yet.
Ok.
Sex is not perverse in the view of the NT. Sex with the same sex is perverse within the NT.
I am comparing gluttons with homosexuality, and that no one even blinks when an obese preacher is ordained. If a homosexual preacher is ordained, there is an outcry.
All I am asking is for you to scripturally support that. You still have not.
Your sarcasm shows a complete lack of understanding of my point. I said your arguments must be based off the NT. I did not say that there would not be any convergence on certain sins……
Than unless you can scripturally prove otherwise, you are being hypocritical if you have any friends who are 25 pounds or more over weight or more (unless you can prove its due to medical and not those buffets)
Well then, have you ever had any gluttons at your house for dinner? You ever share a meal with a glutton at a buffet? You ever fed a glutton? Do you have any gluttons in your church that you speak with and fellowship with?
I never said anything about scriptually supporting or defending homosexuality. Another straw man by you. I said scriptually support treating them differently than a glutton.
Since you consistently use straw men arguments, let me define it for you in order to help.
Basically, that means you portray my argument to be what it is not in order to rebut it. This typically indicates that a debating opponent has no direct rebuttal, or misunderstands the argument.
I have restated the argument to you several times over.
B
bibleberean
Guest
Where does it say in the bible that being overweight is a sin?