Same Sex Relationships

[VaultZero4Me]

Titus 2:12 2 Teach the older men to be temperate, worthy of respect, self-controlled, and sound in faith, in love and in endurance.

Galations 5:22-23 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

 

[VaultZero4Me]

If you are overweight and it is not due to over eating, than that would not be a sin.

If it is because you cannot put down that cheeseburger. It is due to lack of self control.

 

[bibleberean]

Titus 2:12 2 Teach the older men to be temperate, worthy of respect, self-controlled, and sound in faith, in love and in endurance.

Galations 5:22-23 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

I am sorry could you high light the place where it said being overweight is a sin?

Thanks

 

[VaultZero4Me]

Phillipians 3:19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things.

 

[VaultZero4Me]

LoL. Sorry nice try.

It specifically speaks of self control. If you are eating too much, the result is being overweight.

I never said being over weight is a sin. Eating too much, which IS the definition of gluttony, is a sin.

Try again.

 

[VaultZero4Me]

Here lets do the KJV

19Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

 

[bibleberean]

Could you show me where being 25 pounds or more over weight is considered a sin? I just want to make sure that we are being biblical here. How did you arrive at this number from the bible.

I know that if a man has a homosexual relationship he has sinned because there is no such thing as moderation in this area.

I am a little fuzzy on just how fat a guy has to be to be a pervert.

Thanks :D

 

[VaultZero4Me]

Could you show me where being 25 pounds or more over weight is considered a sin? I just want to make sure that we are being biblical here. How did you arrive at this number from the bible.

I know that if a man has a homosexual relationship he has sinned because there is no such thing as moderation in this area.

I am a little fuzzy on just how fat a guy has to be to be a pervert.

Thanks :D

Yes, the number was quite arbitrary. There is no scripture that says that. The scriptures do indicate that letting food control you would be a sin.

So lets see, a person needs to be a certain weight range to be healthy. There is a range. If you are outside of that range, you are eating more calories than is required, and in fact, causing health risks instead of preventing them (the true intention of eating is to not die right?). You are opting to consume more food even though it adversely affects your health. That would be the definition of gluttony.

In fact, someone who is quite small, 25 pounds can become a big deal in regards to health, whereas someone who is nearly 7' tall it may not be so much.

Now, if you want to play that game, I could have you define what it means to be with a man as a woman. You are interpreting it to be intercourse, but it does not make it clear. Homosexuality could mean hugging a man. But, since my argument is strong, and I prefer to argue the point, I do not. I understand the context to mean intercourse, or any sign of sexual affection.

I know that if a man has a homosexual relationship he has sinned because there is no such thing as moderation in this area.

O really? Sooo there is no in between? Or are there any ways that you interact with women that you also interact with men as well? What do you define as crossing the line into homosexuality? Can you kiss a man on the cheek? In fact, there is some interpretation that has to be done, but I am not getting into that side of the debate because there is no way to argue it scripturally on either side. I think there has to be some understanding on both sides.

But go ahead. Play that game all you want. It still doesn't address the point. In fact, it is quite childish. :wink:

 

[bibleberean]

Childish? I am sorry I was just addressing the points you were making. I mean after all you wrote those things not me.

I was wondering if you could explain to me why some people eat all day long and never gain a pound while I know lots of people who live on Tuna and Salad and can't lose weight to save their lives?

How much perversion does a person have to indulge in a same sex relatioship to be considered a fornicator.

I have to go now. I am going to go eat. Hopefully not too much and when I return I will be anxiously awaiting your answers.

Thanks for your patience and understanding

Robert

 

[VaultZero4Me]

I was wondering if you could explain to me why some people eat all day long and never gain a pound while I know lots of people who live on Tuna and Salad and can't lose weight to save their lives?

I am completely perplexed as to why you feel I am able or inclined to answer that. I am not a dietician.

There is a simple formula though and it is based on physics. If you ingest more calories than you burn through rest and activity, you will store the excess calories as fat.

Are you implying there are people who are over weight beyond there control?

If you are, than you are correct and I have never said otherwise, nor is it instrumental in my argument.

BUT, the majority of people are fat because of energy in to energy expended. There are very few people who are fat because of genetics. If that were the case, than people in the US and Euro would not be seeing the uptrend they are seeing now. Society is getting fatter. I do not think that it is too hard to consider the relative abundance of food, and the smaller need for manual labor.

I am a good case. My weight range is 135 to 160 for my height. When I graduated from high school (a Christian school I might add ;) ) I weighed 250+ pounds.

Well, I got tired of that. I dieted and lost down to 180 within a year or so. Finally I got tired of that, so I dieted again and am now maintaining a weight of 154 to 160. When I hit that 160, I loose weight. I do not let the yoyo get out of hand. So, by the Bible, I would have been a glutton.

Guess what? When I was 250 I ate anything I wanted x 5. Now, I eat proportioned meals.

And I have previously stated if it is a genetic issue then it would not be gluttony. So this is all moot.

I am trying to get a rebuttal from the scriptures to my opinion that singling out gays over gluttons is wrong. If you condemn gays, you should condemn gluttons with the same vehement.

Again, I will clarify so there is no Biblical support to say that homosexuality is not wrong within the Bible. The Bible is very clear about that. I just think that the amount of attention some Christians give to the issue, or how they treat them is out of balance with other "sins". Gluttons are welcomed in church even if they are at a church dinner eating way too much, but the same church is unlikely to let a gay couple come into the same place and be treated the same.

Finally, to clarify, I am a non-believer anyways, and have no qualms with anyone that is gay. They are honestly some of the most sincere and good people I have ever met. I just think that Christians do more harm than good by having that kind of stance, and many view it as a hypocrisy and it tarnishes the faith.

BTW, I get the innuendo that my message is of Satan or whatever. If you shut down to a view that you feel threatens what you believe automatically, than you will never grow. I would think that you would want to at least listen, and compare it to the scriptures and see how it measures out. If you can find something that unquestionably defeats it, than disregard it. I am pretty sure you will not.

In fact, I think many stories of Jesus oppose this behavior. Here is a good example I know of.

Luke 7:36-50

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... %207:36-50

 

[VaultZero4Me]

I know lots of people who live on Tuna and Salad and can't lose weight to save their lives?

I would suggest to you that a majority of those people do not actually live on tuna salad or other low calorie food. Food disorders can be quite serious, and many of those people who claim to live off that, are closet eaters. I used to be one . Even if you live with them, they can still hide it. I would suggest looking under a mattress or in a closet. You will find the source there, or maybe it is when they are in the car they hit McDonalds.

I wont say that is the case for everyone, but the majority it is. Now, there are allowances for age and gender, but it isn't much.

Also, many people have gotten so used to what they eat, they do not even realize the calories. You would be surprised what you are getting calories from (juice, milk, sodas, cheese, condiments, candy, relish etc.)

 

[Imagican]

f you will read Romans you will see NT answers to the questions that you ask.

Ok. I have read Romans. I missed it. Would you be so kind to point out where it says that homosexuality is more of a sin that gluttony?

If you read it and understand it then it is QUITE obvious that homosexuals, (regardless of what they SAY), HAVE turned their BACKS ON GOD. They may SAY that they worship God, (and they DO most likely), it's just that the God that they worship is NOT our CREATOR.

The Bible states that there ARE sins of 'the flesh' and then there are sins DIRECTLY AGAINST GOD HIMSELF. Homosexuality, so far as one dying in this sin, is AN ABOMINATION to God Himself. For ONCE one becomes ONE with Christ, Christ dwells WITHIN THEM. And to commit homosexuality for a 'true' Christian would be to FORCE Christ to partake in this behavior. I personally don't believe that it's possible to force Christ to particiapate in a homosexual relationship. Therefore, those that choose this lifestyle do so OUTSIDE the relationship of God or Christ. They have abandoned one for the other.

And also understand this: sin is determined BY THE HEART of those that commit them. There is not a 'gay' person on this planet that does NOT realize that their behavior is CONTRADICTORY to OUR PURPOSE. Oh yeah, if simply seeking personal pleasure is one's purpose then I guess there would be NOTHING WRONG with such behavior. But, if one desires a personal relationship to God through His Son, then this behavior BLOCKS IT COMPLETELY. For one MUST harden their hearts to God to even contemplate a homosexual relationship.

It VERY EASY to partake of 'this world' and follow what it has to offer. That is EXACTLY why a Savior WAS/IS NECESSARY. And to 'the world' those things that are holy ARE but 'foolishness'. For those that seek 'their own' have no comprehension of 'the love' that IS God and was offered through His Son Jesus Christ. For SELF LOVE means NOTHING to God and is TOTALLY contradictory to 'true love' that IS GOD.

As I offered before, read the first couple of chapters of Romans. Heck, just read the first one and you will SEE WHO homosexuals ARE. These are NOT 'my words', but the words of Paul inspired BY GOD, (if you BELIEVE in The Word, that is). If not then our argument here is moot to begin with. For I can convince you of NOTHING that you CAN'T understand. And IF you 'don't believe', then you CAN'T understand.

Open your heart and the mind WILL follow. Open your heart to God, that is. For this world knows and loves it's own and so long as one seeks after this world that is ALL they will find. We were NOT designed to 'be gay'. Yes, we may CHOOSE to follow this lifestyle but it IS contradictory to our VERY NATURE. The FACT that there are MANY gays that insist that it's OK just goes to show HOW FAR FROM GOD they have strayed. It does NOTHING to prove that it IS ok, only to show they have chosen to live 'for this world' rather than their Creator.

MEC

 

[VaultZero4Me]

I read it again. I am seeing where it establishes homosexuality as a sin. Once again I have never tried to argue against that. I believe that homosexuality is well established as a sin.

Now, my point is that the reason that many Christians single homosexuality out over other sins, has more to do with their own personal self, and not scripturally based. And because of that, it creates animosity towards the faith and damages it.

I am trying to get someone to back up with scripture as to a reason why a homosexual should get more attention from a Christian than a glutton. Why are there not any Anti-Buffet groups, or Christians picketing at the local McDonalds. Why do I see some of the same people who vehemently speak out against gays and their lifestyle go stuff their face even though they are obviously well over their safe weight range.

I just want someone to support THAT. Not that gay being a sin. I believe that is established.

In fact, re-reading Romans reaffirmed my belief that this focus is damaging to the faith.

Romans 2:1-4

1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? 4Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?

I personally feel that much of the focus stems from personal fears and phobias and isn't biblically based. (I found comments like "Why do homosexuals scare me to death?" on this site). Therefore the people who focus this much attention are as guilty under the law of as established by the NT of sinning as the very people they are condemning.

That is my argument.

 

[unred typo]

quote by VaultZero4Me

I read it again. I am seeing where it establishes homosexuality as a sin. Once again I have never tried to argue against that. I believe that homosexuality is well established as a sin.

No, read it again. In Romans it is a punishment for the sin of dishonoring God. A humiliating consequence for making an idol or worshipping the creature more than the creator:

Romans 1:22-25 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever.


With the increase of God hating nature lovers and those atheists and agnostics who make the evolution of animals to be the genius of the creature itself, we have seen an increase of homosexuality. Coincidence? Methinks not.

 

[VaultZero4Me]

With the increase of God hating nature lovers and those atheists and agnostics who make the evolution of animals to be the genius of the creature itself, we have seen an increase of homosexuality. Coincidence? Methinks not.

Open up a history book please. This is absolute intellectual garbage. Study the history of the Greeks a little bit, then think about editing your post.

 

[unred typo]

quote by VaultZero4Me :
Open up a history book please. This is absolute intellectual garbage. Study the history of the Greeks a little bit, then think about editing your post.

The Greeks honored God? News to me. I thought they worshipped the human body and honored the athletic man, (the creature) not the creator.

 

[VaultZero4Me]

Actually, the Greeks did have gods. No, they didn't worship the abrahamic god, but what is your point??

If they did of course they would be less homosexuality because it is forbidden in the law.

You were trying to correlate evolution to homosexuality. That is intellectually bankrupt. There are Christian evolutionists and heterosexual evolutionist.

None of this argues against my point in any way at all. Why address it to me? What point was it to even bring evolution into the equation. It doesn't fit for one, and I asked for scriptural grounds to support treating a glutton differently than a homosexual within the Christian NT.

 

[unred typo]

quote by VaultZero4Me :
Actually, the Greeks did have gods. No, they didn't worship the abrahamic god, but what is your point??

If they did of course they would be less homosexuality because it is forbidden in the law.

You were trying to correlate evolution to homosexuality. That is intellectually bankrupt. There are Christian evolutionists and heterosexual evolutionist.

None of this argues against my point in any way at all. Why address it to me? What point was it to even bring evolution into the equation. It doesn't fit for one, and I asked for scriptural grounds to support treating a glutton differently than a homosexual within the Christian NT.

My point? You were the one that made the statement that upon rereading Romans you conceded that it addressed homosexuality as sin. I merely wanted to correct your view to the actual truth expressed there.

I won’t edit my post but I will add clarification to my position here. There has been an increase of open homosexuality in this country of America. I can’t speak of other nations where I have no experience. The Greeks were another example of what I’m saying, from the little I know of the Greeks. In fact, they were probably some of those that Paul was referring to in his discourse to the Roman believers. If you want to deny this, feel free to do so. Matters little to me.

I believe the disrespect of God is the reason for the increase of self humiliating behaviors, of all types, btw. They laugh at God. He makes a derision of them. If you normalize homosexuality, he may add insult to injury and give God-haters a humiliating disease where they have uncontrollable bouts of explosive diarrhea, for instance. Oh wait, that would be AIDS. (Now please don’t misrepresent me as saying that all AIDS victims are God-haters. That would be as asinine as saying that all people who have diseases are being punished. ) There is enough evidence in the Bible to substantiate what I’m saying though, if you would like to explore these instances. I doubt you do, from the tenor of your response to me so far.

As for your call to give scriptural grounds to support treating a glutton differently than a homosexual within the Christian NT, I don’t think there is any. They should be treated with love and given support to find victory over this self destructive behavior. In the case of the God-hater, the first step would be to repent of your attitude toward God.

 

[VaultZero4Me]

My point? You were the one that made the statement that upon rereading Romans you conceded that it addressed homosexuality as sin. I merely wanted to correct your view to the actual truth expressed there.

Please reread from my orginial post. I NEVER made the statement that homosexuality was not a sin in the Bible. I in fact stated it was a sin in the bible. What is this concession you speak of? Please read before you post. You are arguing in circles.

I won’t edit my post but I will add clarification to my position here. There has been an increase of open homosexuality in this country of America. I can’t speak of other nations where I have no experience. The Greeks were another example of what I’m saying, from the little I know of the Greeks. In fact, they were probably some of those that Paul was referring to in his discourse to the Roman believers. If you want to deny this, feel free to do so. Matters little to me.

Deny this? That is exactly what I said. You stated it was due to evolution. I said your wrong, then proved it. You are arguing with yourself again.

Yes, he was referring to the practice of homosexuality that was prevelant in that era. In fact, the Christian church closed down the bath houses eventually. What is your point?

I believe the disrespect of God is the reason for the increase of self humiliating behaviors, of all types, btw. They laugh at God. He makes a derision of them. If you normalize homosexuality, he may add insult to injury and give God-haters a humiliating disease where they have uncontrollable bouts of explosive diarrhea, for instance. Oh wait, that would be AIDS. (Now please don’t misrepresent me as saying that all AIDS victims are God-haters. That would be as asinine as saying that all people who have diseases are being punished. ) There is enough evidence in the Bible to substantiate what I’m saying though, if you would like to explore these instances. I doubt you do, from the tenor of your response to me so far.

Again you argue with yourself. I never made the point that it was ok in the Biblel. Seriously, does not anyone understand that I want someone to provide scriptural support as to why it should be condemned biblically more than gluttony??

BTW, please do not portray God as the creator of AIDS to punish homosexuals. That is intellectually bankrupt as well. I thought that kind of thinking went out with the 80’s. Guess not.

As for your call to give scriptural grounds to support treating a glutton differently than a homosexual within the Christian NT, I don’t think there is any. They should be treated with love and given support to find victory over this self destructive behavior.

That was all that you needed to say. I am unsure of the necessity of the rest of your posting. This is the only paragraph that actually attempted to answer my original and only question. Thanks.

If you believe that, than you should be condemning those in the Christian community who make it their life work to attack the homosexual community. They are perverting the bible to serve their selfish need for bigotry. They are the threat to your faith. Otherwise, they would be condemning the rest of what is considered sin in the bible the same way. It is a one sided thing.

 

[GraceBwithU]

Now, my point is that the reason that many Christians single homosexuality out over other sins, has more to do with their own personal self, and not scripturally based. And because of that, it creates animosity towards the faith and damages it.

I am trying to get someone to back up with scripture as to a reason why a homosexual should get more attention from a Christian than a glutton. Why are there not any Anti-Buffet groups, or Christians picketing at the local McDonalds. Why do I see some of the same people who vehemently speak out against gays and their lifestyle go stuff their face even though they are obviously well over their safe weight range.

A sin is a sin that is true. What makes Christians react differently to homosexuality is that it is not just a sin it is a lifestyle that is being promoted as being natural.

Rom 1:26-27
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Homosexuals also picket. Homosexuality is more than a sin; it is a social mental disease. The pickets against homosexuality are a reaction to their movement. Homosexuality attacks the very moral fibre of society. They teach a false religion. They say they believe in God, but the god they believe in is false. They have therefore put another god before the true God. This is blasphemy and heresy.

Matt 22:37-38
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.

Homosexuals have turned their backs on God; therefore, breaking what Jesus has said is the “first and greatest commandment.†By calling this command the greatest commandment, one should understand that this is the most important. If you don’t keep this commandment you will be easy prey for Satan’s lies.

A glutton, although his habit is a sin, doesn’t promote his lifestyle to others. There sin is a bad habit and most will agree with you that they should not eat so much. Homosexuals are convinced their sin is not a sin at all.

I hope you are not saying if Christians don’t picket McDonalds that they should not picket against homosexuality. Maybe instead of doing that you should organize a protest against gluttony. I’m sure you could get some one to agree with you to picket.

I have a cousin that did live in Key West, Florida. They moved mainly because there son was being approached in the restrooms at school and in public by homosexuals. This is probably why they scare some people.
:D