Satan: Christianity vs Judaism

[VirginShallConceive]

Nope. The entire chapter 14 is talking about a Babylonian King (most likely Nebuchadnezzar II). See here: http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=48379

Christians I respect don't agree.

P31Woman,

I honestly think that you should study chapter 14 further. I think it's worth the time. I think it's a good idea to ask yourself, "How did the Christians I respect come to their conclusion about Lucifer, and how did the Christians that don't agree that Lucifer is Satan come to their conclusion?"

 

[Vanguard]

P31Woman,

I honestly think that you should study chapter 14 further. I think it's worth the time. I think it's a good idea to ask yourself, "How did the Christians I respect come to their conclusion about Lucifer, and how did the Christians that don't agree that Lucifer is Satan come to their conclusion?"

:amen

...and why do modern translations revise Isaiah 14:12 and remove the only instance in the entire KJV of the Bible where the name Lucifer is used?

 

[VirginShallConceive]

Yes the five "i wills" of Satan. The thing that is so deceptive about satan is that overtly He does a lot of things like God but inwardly He is a ravenous wolf. Satan wants to make this world work but He wants to do it completely apart and independently from God. Satan wants to ultimately say," See you big egotistical God we can make this work without you!" And I can rule it with out you! (creature credit)

Hi, Jarrod.

One thing that I think is important to watch out for is over-analyzing and digging too deep, when there is a huge reality that looms in the opposite direction of what you're saying. You have this character in your mind called Satan. You have him being extremely deceptive. Then, you turn around in the next breath and tell us things about him that, if true, would make him appear as extremely retarded. You don't present Satan as more powerful than God, but you do present him as half-way there. You present him like this invisible, sneaky deceiver who somehow infiltrates the minds of people, but somehow, he can't read your "eye opening" post and learn from it. It's like you have the Bible, and you have it all figured out, but somehow Satan just isn't smart enough to get the big picture, even though he has supposedly spent who knows how much time in the actual presence of God. I'm not talking about how Satan got this funny feeling and started speaking in tongues, I'm talking about Satan having eons worth of direct conversations with God, or so they say.

But hey, thanks to you, we have Satan's entire strategy mapped out for us in post #46.

 

[Vanguard]

Hi, Jarrod.

One thing that I think is important to watch out for is over-analyzing and digging too deep, when there is a huge reality that looms in the opposite direction of what you're saying. You have this character in your mind called Satan. You have him being extremely deceptive. Then, you turn around in the next breath and tell us things about him that, if true, would make him appear as extremely retarded. You don't present Satan as more powerful than God, but you do present him as half-way there. You present him like this invisible, sneaky deceiver who somehow infiltrates the minds of people, but somehow, he can't read your "eye opening" post and learn from it. It's like you have the Bible, and you have it all figured out, but somehow Satan just isn't smart enough to get the big picture, even though he has supposedly spent who knows how much time in the actual presence of God. I'm not talking about how Satan got this funny feeling and started speaking in tongues, I'm talking about Satan having eons worth of direct conversations with God, or so they say.

But hey, thanks to you, we have Satan's entire strategy mapped out for us in post #46.

I'm still trying to figure out how Satan is doing all this stuff all over the earth when he isn't omnipresent (only God is). He can't be lying and deceiving in New York and California at the same time, much less anywhere overseas. Maybe he has access to Santa's sleigh and reindeer?

:toofunny

 

[gr8grace]

Hi, Jarrod.

One thing that I think is important to watch out for is over-analyzing and digging too deep, when there is a huge reality that looms in the opposite direction of what you're saying. You have this character in your mind called Satan. You have him being extremely deceptive. Then, you turn around in the next breath and tell us things about him that, if true, would make him appear as extremely retarded. You don't present Satan as more powerful than God, but you do present him as half-way there. You present him like this invisible, sneaky deceiver who somehow infiltrates the minds of people, but somehow, he can't read your "eye opening" post and learn from it. It's like you have the Bible, and you have it all figured out, but somehow Satan just isn't smart enough to get the big picture, even though he has supposedly spent who knows how much time in the actual presence of God. I'm not talking about how Satan got this funny feeling and started speaking in tongues, I'm talking about Satan having eons worth of direct conversations with God, or so they say.

But hey, thanks to you, we have Satan's entire strategy mapped out for us in post #46.

Satan is a genius in MY mind and to the world. But if we have Gods word and His mind, Satan looks to be a half whit! Our minds and intelligence would never come to that conclusion about Satan. But if we have Gods word , He shows us the deception. You should rejoice in the Fact that God has revealed to us the schemes of the devil. God in His revealing to us has made Satan look to be a half whit, not by what I think about Satan.

 

[enlightened]

I have a better idea. Let's use the KJV and try to support it with Byzantine texts, Alexandrian texts, Critical texts, and a Hebrew-Greek-English Interlinear Bible so that we can be 100% certain what the actual WORD refers to.

Of course we need to further define which KJV you want. There have been over a dozen revisions since 1611.

Use any KJV of 1611, but answer the question.

 

[gr8grace]

Hi, Jarrod.

One thing that I think is important to watch out for is over-analyzing and digging too deep, when there is a huge reality that looms in the opposite direction of what you're saying. You have this character in your mind called Satan. You have him being extremely deceptive. Then, you turn around in the next breath and tell us things about him that, if true, would make him appear as extremely retarded. You don't present Satan as more powerful than God, but you do present him as half-way there. You present him like this invisible, sneaky deceiver who somehow infiltrates the minds of people, but somehow, he can't read your "eye opening" post and learn from it. It's like you have the Bible, and you have it all figured out, but somehow Satan just isn't smart enough to get the big picture, even though he has supposedly spent who knows how much time in the actual presence of God. I'm not talking about how Satan got this funny feeling and started speaking in tongues, I'm talking about Satan having eons worth of direct conversations with God, or so they say.

But hey, thanks to you, we have Satan's entire strategy mapped out for us in post #46.

One more thing Sir, PRIDE will veil the truth and satans intelligence can NOT overcome his all consuming PRIDE. Its the same problem we as humans have. His pride veils the truth from Him.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

Satan is a genius in MY mind and to the world.

Well, not in my mind. Geniuses don't go against the Creator of the Universe. Geniuses spend their eons doing more productive things.

But if we have Gods word and His mind, Satan looks to be a half whit!

If we have access to God's Word, I'm sure that Satan does too.

Our minds and intelligence would never come to that conclusion about Satan.

Well, I'm gonna come clean and admit that I think my conclusion is more intelligent than yours. No, just kidding.

But if we have Gods word , He shows us the deception. You should rejoice in the Fact that God has revealed to us the schemes of the devil. God in His revealing to us has made Satan look to be a half whit, not by what I think about Satan.

Hey, that's cool. I guess I'm more with Vanguard's camp. I like viewing Satan as "The Accuser", as an agent of God, like he was back in the days of Job. For me, it fits better. You have The Accuser who isn't dumb enough to go against God. If any being is that dumb, they should get a free pass, because the cards were stacked against them from day one.

 

[gr8grace]

I'm still trying to figure out how Satan is doing all this stuff all over the earth when he isn't omnipresent (only God is). He can't be lying and deceiving in New York and California at the same time, much less anywhere overseas. Maybe he has access to Santa's sleigh and reindeer?

:toofunny

HI Van,

He can accomplish this through Eph 6:12 the devil has his forces. and we have no idea how many forces he has behind him. 1/3 of the angels ever created! He has rulers,authorities,cosmic powers and he has spiritual forces of evil. he can get a lot done in an unbelieving world! It is an interesting study about this army and how each of these forces have their own specific place in the battle. I can post it later if you would like. It is like a army brigade in the original Greek. Very interesting.

 

[gr8grace]

Well, not in my mind. Geniuses don't go against the Creator of the Universe. Geniuses spend their eons doing more productive things.



If we have access to God's Word, I'm sure that Satan does too.



Well, I'm gonna come clean and admit that I think my conclusion is more intelligent than yours. No, just kidding.



Hey, that's cool. I guess I'm more with Vanguard's camp. I like viewing Satan as "The Accuser", as an agent of God, like he was back in the days of Job. For me, it fits better. You have The Accuser who isn't dumb enough to go against God. If any being is that dumb, they should get a free pass, because the cards were stacked against them from day one.

Pride blinds us Virgin , no matter how smart God has created us to be.

 

[enlightened]

Men have twisted the TRUTH from the very Beginning, so the debates rage on; but, from a simplistic and literal point of view, one without mysteries and myth, like talking snakes, i would say this on the part of 'Christianity'.

There is no doubt that the serpent in GEN3 is the same old serpent in REV20, who is also the devil and satan, who is also Lucifer in IS14 and the King of Tyrus in EZ28. These speak of a man who thought he could be GOD, if he could eat from the forbidden tree. And he was the most beautiful and perfect man ever created, for he was created in the expressed Image and Likeness of the LORD GOD (EZ1:26-28).
His name is Adam: and the iniquity he hid in is 'bosom' (JOB31:33), is the same iniquitous thoughts of Lucifer. And this is why he deceived his wife: to get her to eat first, so he could eat second. So all of this started when Adam told Eve the lie that they could not touch the 'forbidden' fruit either.

 

[Vanguard]

When did the 'jewish' beliefs concerning Satan begin? And, since Satan, Lucifer, and the devil are the same person, can you tell me the first lie he told, which was the first lie ever told, according to Jesus (JN8:44)? Note: since you are able to use multiple translations, an ability you think is admirable, lets use the KJV only, so there is no disagreement as to the WORD we use, O.K.?

Q: When did the 'jewish' beliefs concerning Satan begin?
A: Their beliefs aren't concerned with Satan, but rather, he has a small role in some of the OT stories. His first appearance, according to Judaism, is in Numbers 22:22, and is the Adversary (Ha-SaTan, his title, can mean Accuser or Adversary) to Balaam, and is described as an "Angel of the Lord...with sword in hand." Same story where the donkey spoke to Balaam.

And, since Satan, Lucifer, and the devil are the same person...

Completely subjective and interpretive. Continuing on...

Q: ...can you tell me the first lie he told, which was the first lie ever told, according to Jesus (JN8:44)?
A: 1. The first lie ever told, which is competely subjective as well, is when God told Adam that if you eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, you will die. They ate but did not die. However, the subjective part is God did not specify WHEN they would die, just that it would happen. This is not my position btw, just one that is discussed among scholars (usually between atheists and Christians). It also leads to part 2, below.

2. To answer the specifics of your question, Jesus is chastizing the Pharisees in the temple, in John chapter 8. Use it in context. However, we can have a little looksie at Genesis 3:4 when the serpent (does not say Satan or devil in the KJV) tells Eve that she will not die if she eats the fruit, only that her eyes will be opened and that she would know good from evil. They ate, but did not die (just like in #1)..at least not for a long, long time.

The question then becomes, did God mean an immediate death? Was it a metaphor for a spiritual death? In the end, they did physically die, so God did not lie. At the time of the fruit eating, they did not die, so with regard to an immediate, physical death, the serpent was right. Both scenarios are subjective and hinge on the definition of death, and the time of death.

All from the KJV.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

One more thing Sir, PRIDE will veil the truth and satans intelligence can NOT overcome his all consuming PRIDE. Its the same problem we as humans have. His pride veils the truth from Him.

You don't see that as being a pretty weak explanation? His pride veils the truth from him? For thousands of years? You don't need to be a mathematician or a great philosopher to weigh the concept of "Omnimax God That Cannot Possibly Be Overruled . . . Ever", no matter how much pride you have.

I hate to go off on a tangent, but, you know what else gets me? I never liked how Satan keeps getting mistaken for the snake in the Garden of Eden. In the Garden of Eden, you have four main characters: God, Adam, Adam's wife, and a snake. God didn't like the way the other three behaved, so He handed out punishments to all three and their descendants. God chose not to call in The Accuser(Satan) on that particular day. God decided to handle that one Himself, for whatever reason.

 

[Vanguard]

I hate to go off on a tangent, but, you know what else gets me? I never liked how Satan keeps getting mistaken for the snake in the Garden of Eden. In the Garden of Eden, you have four main characters: God, Adam, Adam's wife, and a snake. God didn't like the way the other three behaved, so He handed out punishments to all three and their descendants. God chose not to call in The Accuser(Satan) on that particular day. God decided to handle that one Himself, for whatever reason.

Bigger picture, meet VSC!

 

[VirginShallConceive]

Bigger picture, meet VSC!

Thanks, Vanguard.

You know what's funny? I hit "Submit Reply", only to find out that you and enlightened snuck in and pretty much already covered what I said. Those posts weren't there when I started typing. I gotta learn to type faster.

 

[P31Woman]

P31Woman,

I honestly think that you should study chapter 14 further. I think it's worth the time. I think it's a good idea to ask yourself, "How did the Christians I respect come to their conclusion about Lucifer, and how did the Christians that don't agree that Lucifer is Satan come to their conclusion?"

:biglol

 

[P31Woman]

Well, not in my mind. Geniuses don't go against the Creator of the Universe. Geniuses spend their eons doing more productive things.



If we have access to God's Word, I'm sure that Satan does too.



Well, I'm gonna come clean and admit that I think my conclusion is more intelligent than yours. No, just kidding.



Hey, that's cool. I guess I'm more with Vanguard's camp. I like viewing Satan as "The Accuser", as an agent of God, like he was back in the days of Job. For me, it fits better. You have The Accuser who isn't dumb enough to go against God. If any being is that dumb, they should get a free pass, because the cards were stacked against them from day one.

My turn My turn....I want to make up my own religion that fits my ideas of what is right and wrong better? I want to throw out the book of numbers in the bible and the book of Psalm. Never did like those two books. Half of James I want out so I can favor rich folks and hate the poor. Yea I like that much better. Fits my personality to a tee!

 

[gr8grace]

You don't see that as being a pretty weak explanation? His pride veils the truth from him? For thousands of years? You don't need to be a mathematician or a great philosopher to weigh the concept of "Omnimax God That Cannot Possibly Be Overruled . . . Ever", no matter how much pride you have.

I hate to go off on a tangent, but, you know what else gets me? I never liked how Satan keeps getting mistaken for the snake in the Garden of Eden. In the Garden of Eden, you have four main characters: God, Adam, Adam's wife, and a snake. God didn't like the way the other three behaved, so He handed out punishments to all three and their descendants. God chose not to call in The Accuser(Satan) on that particular day. God decided to handle that one Himself, for whatever reason.

Yes, my response looked pretty weak. Here is what I meant by Pride and arrogance veiling the truth from us and satan.
The original sin of arrogance is amplified in EZE 28:14‑17, “You were the Anointed Cherub who guards; I placed you there. You were onthe holy mountain of God; you walked among the stones of fire. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created until unrighteousness was found in you. By the abundance of your slander, they filled your inner life with violence and you sinned. Therefore, I have cast you as defiled from the mountain of God. I have excluded you, O Guardian Cherub, out from the stones of fire. Your right lobe was lifted up because of your beauty. You corrupted your wisdom because of your glamor. I have cast you to the earth. I have placed you before kings that they may see you.â€

Pride - This is lofty and arrogant assumption of superiority.
PRO 11:2, “When arrogance comes, then come dishonor.â€

PRO 16:18, “Arrogance precedes destruction, and before a fall there is a lifestyle of arrogance.â€

PRO 23:29, “A person's arrogance will bring him low, but a lifestyle of humility will attain honor.â€

ROM 12:3 defines arrogance as mental attitude sins. For I say through the grace which has been given to me to everyone who is among you, stop thinking of self in terms of arrogance beyond what you ought to think, but think in terms of sanity for the purpose of being rational without illusion as God has assigned to each one of us a standard of thinking from doctrine.

Arrogance is defined in terms of the sin of jealousy in JAM 3:14‑16, But if you have bitter jealousy and inordinate ambition in your right lobe, stop being arrogant, and stop lying against the truth [Bible doctrine]. This pseudo wisdom is not that which comes from above, but is earthly, natural, and demonic. For where jealousy and inordinate ambition exist there is disorder and every evil deed.

PRO 13:10, “Through arrogance comes strife, but wisdom is with those who receive instruction.â€

1 Pe 5:5-7, You younger men, likewise, be subject to your elders; and all of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, for God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble. Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you at the proper time, casting all your anxiety on Him, because He cares for you.

PRO 8:11, “The respect for the Lord is to hate evil, to hate pride and arrogance and the evil way. And I hate a perverted mouth.â€

Pride also means rejection of authority. Pride means vanity, self-justification, an inflated concept of self, the exaggeration of one’s own importance. The complex of mental attitude sins in motivational arrogance includes pride, bitterness, jealousy, hatred, revenge, guilt, fear, worry, and so on. Arrogance, pride, conceit, is the original sin of the greatest genius creature of all time. We call him Satan or the devil, but his original name was son of the morning, Heylel. He was the first creature to enter into this sin. In fact, it is the original sin found in the fallen angels in the pre-historic angelic conflict. It is the one sin that motivated Satan to rebel. It is the one sin that motivated the fallen angels to also rebel. It is the one sin that motivated the woman in the garden to sin.

 

[Deborah13]

Satan (from the Hebrew Ha-SaTan) means "the accuser" and to a lesser extent "the adversary." There is no mention in the OT that refers to Satan as the deceiver. Hebrews [Jews] do not believe in the concept of Satan as the devil, and the OT is their history and genealogy. Why would they write about something they don't believe in? They wouldn't.


Here's the kicker...

1. God is the only god, who is all powerful.
2. To give Satan power to operate independently of God, makes him a god as well, which contradicts #1.

Thus why Judaism does not believe in Ha-SaTan as anything other than an angel, with his name actually being a title (Ha = The, SaTan = Accuser), and he is following God's orders to accuse people of their sins, and bring them before God for judgment.

Sorry if any of this is confusing (I know it can be) but that is Theology 101.

First let me say that I agree that 'Satan' is the accuser, "the accuser of the brotheren" as well as the nonbeliever.


1. God is the only god, who is all powerful.
2. To give Satan power to operate independently of God, makes him a god as well, which contradicts #1.

3. To give man power to operate independently of God, makes him a god as well, which contradicts #1 ?

By this logic man does not operate in free will but only doing what God wills him to do.....

 

[VirginShallConceive]

My turn My turn....I want to make up my own religion that fits my ideas of what is right and wrong better? I want to throw out the book of numbers in the bible and the book of Psalm. Never did like those two books. Half of James I want out so I can favor rich folks and hate the poor. Yea I like that much better. Fits my personality to a tee!

Before I go any further, P31Woman, I just want to let you know that I like your spunk. Instead of just laying down and letting people walk all over you, you stick up for yourself. This makes your posts enjoyable to read, whether I agree with them or not. If I can dish it out, I most certainly better be prepared to take it.

So, I am making up my own religion? No. On the contrary, I think you should take "sticking up for yourself" to the next level, and not let Dante or King James or any other redactor make up your religion for you.