Saved by Grace not of works !

[Drew]

The ironic thing about this discussion is that I fully embrace the Biblical truth that "if you have faith, you will be saved".

I just have this nagging little problem: Try as I might I cannot make this couplet of sentences:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

...mean something other than what it clearly means - that the "according to" is followed by what they have done, not what they have believed.

When you say that some reward - in this case eternal life - is given "according to X", the english languages forces you to conclude that X is the criteria, the basis, for the conferring of the reward.

In short, no matter how hard I stare at the text, it continues to say that the rewarding of eternal life is based on "what they have done" or, equivalently, persisting in doing good.

Two times in this text, Paul clearly says that it is how we behave that determines whether we get eternal life:

1. "according to what they have done";
2. "those who persist in doing good"

It is a fascinating example of the power of an idea - in this case that salvation has no connection to good works - can cause otherwise well-intentioned readers to simply deny what is plainly written.

I would really love to have a psychologist explain this phenomena. Here we have a text whose meaning in the english language is crystal clear - the criteria for the rewarding of eternal life is 'good works' / 'persistence in doing good' - and yet people who have great respect for the scriptures simply cannot accept this.

Now, to be fair, if Paul has prefaced this clear statement with something like "I am about to describe criteria for salvation that have been set aside and replaced with something else" then that would be a different story.

But Paul makes no such statement.

 

[glorydaz]

There is nothing more foundational than Salvation is by Grace through Faith and not of works. Eph 2:8-9

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Titus 3:5

5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

You teach as well as many others, that Salvation is by what one has done. If believing isn't something man does, then prove it from scripture..

You deny the very basic tenent of the Christian Faith..

Just as godly sorrow worketh repentance...

For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Believing is a work of God....

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

By which men are persuaded by the gospel message.

He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

 

[glorydaz]

The ironic thing about this discussion is that I fully embrace the Biblical truth that "if you have faith, you will be saved".

I just have this nagging little problem: Try as I might I cannot make this couplet of sentences:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

...mean something other than what it clearly means - that the "according to" is followed by what they have done, not what they have believed.

When you say that some reward - in this case eternal life - is given "according to X", the english languages forces you to conclude that X is the criteria, the basis, for the conferring of the reward.

In short, no matter how hard I stare at the text, it continues to say that the rewarding of eternal life is based on "what they have done" or, equivalently, persisting in doing good.

Two times in this text, Paul clearly says that it is how we behave that determines whether we get eternal life:

1. "according to what they have done";
2. "those who persist in doing good"

It is a fascinating example of the power of an idea - in this case that salvation has no connection to good works - can cause otherwise well-intentioned readers to simply deny what is plainly written.

I would really love to have a psychologist explain this phenomena. Here we have a text whose meaning in the english language is crystal clear - the criteria for the rewarding of eternal life is 'good works' / 'persistence in doing good' - and yet people who have great respect for the scriptures simply cannot accept this.

Now, to be fair, if Paul has prefaced this clear statement with something like "I am about to describe criteria for salvation that have been set aside and replaced with something else" then that would be a different story.

But Paul makes no such statement.

According to their deeds.....did they obey God's command to repent and believe in Jesus Christ?
Did their deeds manifest the Holy Spirit's fruit?

You're going to have to work this one out for yourself, Drew. You know that scripture does not contradict itself, therefore your own understanding is hanging you up somewhere with this verse. Is this your own personal "thorn in the flesh"? I've seen you struggle with this for well over a year that I know of. Even though you can admit that true good works only come about after we have the Holy Spirit, you can't let go of the idea that they somehow save us. In the first place, they can't be counted as your works if the Holy Spirit does them through you. Second, when we stand before God, our name must be written in the Lamb's Book of Life. Is our name written there because of what we have done, or because of what Christ has done in us?

I'm through trying to convince you about Romans 2. It's time for you to set it aside until the Lord gives you more clarification. No matter how hard you push, you will never convince me that we are saved by works of any kind. I will not throw out fifty verses to make one make sense.

 

[Gazelle]

The Bible speaks of different works. I think the two main ones being confused are man's attempt at works for salvation, and works done by the believer in the service of God. Neither are accounted for salvation.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

According to their deeds.....did they obey God's command to repent and believe in Jesus Christ?
Did their deeds manifest the Holy Spirit's fruit?

You're going to have to work this one out for yourself, Drew. You know that scripture does not contradict itself, therefore your own understanding is hanging you up somewhere with this verse. Is this your own personal "thorn in the flesh"? I've seen you struggle with this for well over a year that I know of. Even though you can admit that true good works only come about after we have the Holy Spirit, you can't let go of the idea that they somehow save us. In the first place, they can't be counted as your works if the Holy Spirit does them through you. Second, when we stand before God, our name must be written in the Lamb's Book of Life. Is our name written there because of what we have done, or because of what Christ has done in us?

I'm through trying to convince you about Romans 2. It's time for you to set it aside until the Lord gives you more clarification. No matter how hard you push, you will never convince me that we are saved by works of any kind. I will not throw out fifty verses to make one make sense.

AMEN!!!

 

[Drew]

According to their deeds.....did they obey God's command to repent and believe in Jesus Christ?
Did their deeds manifest the Holy Spirit's fruit?

Yes.

But the text still says what it says - and you continue to deny it. I am quite convinced that you honestly believe that the text is saying something other than what it actually says.

That is what is so fascinating about this. Here we have a clear assertion on the part of Paul that eternal life is based on how we actually live. And yet you deny this.

If all we had was the "according to what they have done" bit, you might be able to make the argument that Paul means "what they have done in the sense of 'doing' an act of faith".

But this is not all that Paul says. He says eternal life is given to those who manifest these "doings":

1. they persist in doing good;
2. they seek glory;
3. they seek honour

These statements are clearly not about "an act of faith" - they are about how people actually behave.

And Paul says that those who behave in this manner get eternal life.

You're going to have to work this one out for yourself, Drew. You know that scripture does not contradict itself, therefore your own understanding is hanging you up somewhere with this verse.

No. The real issue is that you cannot (as I said before, I believe your error here is not intentional) accept that Paul is saying what he clearly is saying: eternal life is given to people according to their persistence in doing good.

This is clearly what Paul is saying.

Yet you deny it.

The issue is not any problem of mine with "contradiction". It is instead that you cannot read the text as it is written.

 

[Drew]

The Bible speaks of different works. I think the two main ones being confused are man's attempt at works for salvation, and works done by the believer in the service of God. Neither are accounted for salvation.

Let the scriptures speak for themselves:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Now, pry-thee, please tell us how this is not a clear statement that eternal life is granted to people according to "persistence in doing good".

 

[Drew]

You're going to have to work this one out for yourself, Drew. You know that scripture does not contradict itself, therefore your own understanding is hanging you up somewhere with this verse. Is this your own personal "thorn in the flesh"?

How is that your refusal (or inability) to comprehend a clear set of sentences in the english language consitutes a thorn in my flesh?

Besides, there are other texts that make the same case - final salvation is granted according to how our lives have been lived.

I

've seen you struggle with this for well over a year that I know of. Even though you can admit that true good works only come about after we have the Holy Spirit, you can't let go of the idea that they somehow save us.

That is because I believe the following set of statements which cannot be read as anything other than a claim that final salvation is given according to what we have done, as particularly exemplified by persistence in doing good, seeking honor, seeking glory, and seeking immortality.

The words mean what they mean!!!!:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

I am strongly suspect that you, and many others are demonstrating the "emperor has no clothes" phenomena, whereby the overwhelming majority of observers share in a collective ignorance of an obvious fact.

These sentences are a clear assertion that final salvation is based on how we live. That is what the words in these two sentences actually mean.

There is this expression "the bigger the lie", the easier it is to believe.

I suggest that something akin to that is going on here. These two sentences cannot legitimately be misunderstood - they clearly connect getting eternal life to how we live.

And yet through some mysterious psychological effect, you and many others simpy cannot (or will not) accept this, and yet, fascinatingly, you seem to think that this does not pose a problem in respect to the matter of the inerrancy of Scripture.

 

[Gazelle]

Here ya go... for real scholarly Bible study on this. http://www.christnotes.org/commentary.php?com=mhc&b=45&c=2

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/henry/mhc6.Rom.iii.html

 

[Sinthesis]

The words mean what they mean!!!!

Yes! Yet what you find inconceivable is that the words don't mean exactly what you think they mean.

First do a word study on Strong's G2596 - kata
Then notice how many times it is used in Romans 2.

 

[Drew]

Yes! Yet what you find inconceivable is that the words don't mean exactly what you think they mean.

First do a word study on Strong's G2596 - kata
Then notice how many times it is used in Romans 2.

The point is this: As rendered in English, and as read by a 21st century westerner, Romans 2:6-7 clearly asserts that eternal life is granted according to good works.

If you believe there has been a translation error, and that Paul's intent was to communicate something other than the meaning that would be discerned by a proper reading of these sentences by a 21st century english reader then, by all means, please explain.

But let's be clear: Any unbiased competent 21st century english reader who is asked "what does this couplet of statements from Romans 2 mean?" would most assuredly answer: Paul is asserting that eternal life is granted according to how we have lived.

That is simply what these two sentences mean, as understood from the perspective of a 21st century english reader.

 

[Gazelle]

Well, you can't take one verse and created a whole doctrine... well you might, but it isn't Biblical just because you do that.

I'm done.

 

[kjb1769]

Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

All these verses are one sentence. Refering to the inexcusable O man of verse 3.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

The point is this: As rendered in English, and as read by a 21st century westerner, Romans 2:6-7 clearly asserts that eternal life is granted according to good works.

If you believe there has been a translation error, and that Paul's intent was to communicate something other than the meaning that would be discerned by a proper reading of these sentences by a 21st century english reader then, by all means, please explain.

But let's be clear: Any unbiased competent 21st century english reader who is asked "what does this couplet of statements from Romans 2 mean?" would most assuredly answer: Paul is asserting that eternal life is granted according to how we have lived.

That is simply what these two sentences mean, as understood from the perspective of a 21st century english reader.

Drew, you have an "obsession" and that's not healthy...

 

[Sinthesis]

The point is this: As rendered in English, and as read by a 21st century westerner, Romans 2:6-7 clearly asserts that eternal life is granted according to good works.

If you believe there has been a translation error, and that Paul's intent was to communicate something other than the meaning that would be discerned by a proper reading of these sentences by a 21st century english reader then, by all means, please explain.

But let's be clear: Any unbiased competent 21st century english reader who is asked "what does this couplet of statements from Romans 2 mean?" would most assuredly answer: Paul is asserting that eternal life is granted according to how we have lived.

That is simply what these two sentences mean, as understood from the perspective of a 21st century english reader.

Then I'll be blunt. You don't know what "according to" means.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

How is that your refusal (or inability) to comprehend a clear set of sentences in the english language consitutes a thorn in my flesh?

Besides, there are other texts that make the same case - final salvation is granted according to how our lives have been lived.

I
That is because I believe the following set of statements which cannot be read as anything other than a claim that final salvation is given according to what we have done, as particularly exemplified by persistence in doing good, seeking honor, seeking glory, and seeking immortality.

The words mean what they mean!!!!:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

I am strongly suspect that you, and many others are demonstrating the "emperor has no clothes" phenomena, whereby the overwhelming majority of observers share in a collective ignorance of an obvious fact.

These sentences are a clear assertion that final salvation is based on how we live. That is what the words in these two sentences actually mean.

There is this expression "the bigger the lie", the easier it is to believe.

I suggest that something akin to that is going on here. These two sentences cannot legitimately be misunderstood - they clearly connect getting eternal life to how we live.

And yet through some mysterious psychological effect, you and many others simpy cannot (or will not) accept this, and yet, fascinatingly, you seem to think that this does not pose a problem in respect to the matter of the inerrancy of Scripture.

Drew, If you actually believe what your verse says, are you doing all kinds of "good deeds?? Are you totally abstaining from known sin in your life?? Are you loving God with ALL your heart and mind? Are you loving ALL your neighbors?? Are you thinking 'ONLY' pure thoughts?? Are you going to church EVERY Sunday?? Are you giving 100% of yourself to God?? Do you 100% of every 24 hour day do good, think good, be good?? Because if your not, according to that verse your gonna have a problem on "Judgment Day" trying to explain to God why you were not persistent in doing your good works??

 

[glorydaz]

Drew, If you actually believe what your verse says, are you doing all kinds of "good deeds?? Are you totally abstaining from known sin in your life?? Are you loving God with ALL your heart and mind? Are you loving ALL your neighbors?? Are you thinking 'ONLY' pure thoughts?? Are you going to church EVERY Sunday?? Are you giving 100% of yourself to God?? Do you 100% of every 24 hour day do good, think good, be good?? Because if your not, according to that verse your gonna have a problem on "Judgment Day" trying to explain to God why you were not persistent in doing your good works??

Grubal, don't you think Rom. 2 sounds like this verse...

When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

 

[Drew]

Well, you can't take one verse and created a whole doctrine... well you might, but it isn't Biblical just because you do that.

I'm done.

First: the fact that I focus on Romans 2:6-7 does not mean that there are not other scriptural arguments for the position I am advancing.

There are - not least Romans 8 where Paul writes this:

Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Again, I have little doubt that posters will essentially try to evade this text as they are evading the Romans 2 text.

But, as in Romans 2, Paul says what he says!! - whether one lives or dies (and the context is that of eternal life) is dependent on how we live.

I look forward to the inventive attempts I little doubt will be advanced to try to make this text say something other than what it is clearly saying.

Second: You (and others) appear to think that you get a "mulligan" - that you really are not obliged to take Romans 2:6-7. Well, if you believe that all scripture is inspired, you do not get that luxury.

So what is your explanation for Romans 2:6-7? Why would Paul make a clear statement linking eternal life to how we live if he believes there is, in fact, no such connection?

 

[Drew]

All these verses are one sentence. Refering to the inexcusable O man of verse 3.

I guess I agree, but what conclusion do you draw from this?

 

[Drew]

Drew, you have an "obsession" and that's not healthy...

How is it that my respecting everything that Paul writes constitutes an "obsession"?

What explanation do you offer as to why Paul would write Romans 2:6-7, which clearly asserts that eternal life is granted according to "how we live" (e.g. persisting in doing good), if he does not believe this to be so.

Its really a simple question. Paul wrote these words. So please enlighten us - what is he trying to tell us?