Self-defense

[GodspromisesRyes]

our SELF has a right to die, to be crucified, to be buried in baptism.

There is no denfence for self allowed.

 

[MTBSD]

There's an extended treatment of the question here, if you're interested:

http://www.biblicalselfdefense.com

 

[elijah23]

Is Jesus OK with physical self-defense?

I don’t know for sure, but I think the Lord is okay with physical self-defense, plus physical self-defense of those we care about.

 

[Guest]

our SELF has a right to die, to be crucified, to be buried in baptism.

There is no denfence for self allowed.

Oh bulloney.
any biblical support for this nonsense, friend..or do we just have to take your word for it ?

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

how can you defend yourself if you are turning your cheek to the person harming you so they can hit it as well.

If you are never returning evil for evil but only evil for good, how are you defending yourself.

if you are never resisting the evil man, how can you defend yourself

If you are always blessing those who curse and persecute you how can you defend yourself

If you are giving place to wrath and not avenging yourself how can you defend yourself

If you are carrying your cross, what arms or legs do you have to defend yourself with

if you are crucified on your cross how can you come down to defend yourself.

if you seek to save your life how can you defend your life without loosing it.

if you fight not against flesh and blood how can you defend yourself against flesh and blood.

if you do good to those who despitefully use you how can you defend yourself.

If you are dead and it is Christ that lives in you, how can you as a dead man defend yourself.

if you are overcomming evil with good how can you defend yourself

If you are living peaceably with all men as much as lieth in YOU, how can you defend yourself

 

[Guest]

There's an extended treatment of the question here, if you're interested:

http://www.biblicalselfdefense.com

I just browsed thru it so far but it seems to be a well rounded article overall.

 

[Guest]

how can you defend yourself if you are turning your cheek to the person harming you so they can hit......... with all men as much as lieth in YOU, how can you defend yourself

There is a time for war, for self defense....sorry...your 'proverbs' there dont change that fact.

For he is God's servant to you for good. But if you do evil, fear; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's servant, an avenger for wrath to the one practicing evil.
(Rom 13:4 EMTV)

For he beareth not the sword in vain -
The “sword†is an instrument of punishment, as well as an emblem of war. Princes were accustomed to wear a sword as an emblem of their authority; and the “sword†was often used for the purpose of “beheading,†or otherwise punishing the guilty. The meaning of the apostle is, that he does not wear this badge of authority as an unmeaningful show, but that it will be used to execute the laws. As this is the design of the power intrusted to him, and as he will “exercise†his authority, people should be influenced “by fear†to keep the law, even if there were no better motive.

A revenger ... -
In Rom_12:19, vengeance is said to belong to God. Yet he “executes†his vengeance by means of subordinate agents. It belongs to him to take vengeance by direct judgments, by the plague, famine, sickness, or earthquakes; by the appointment of magistrates; or by letting loose the passions of people to prey upon each other. When a magistrate inflicts punishment on the guilty, it is to be regarded as the act of God taking vengeance “by him;†and on this principle only is it right for a judge to condemn a man to death. It is not because one man has by nature any right over the life of another, or because “society†has any right collectively which it has not as individuals; but because “God†gave life, and because he has chosen to take it away when crime is committed by the appointment of magistrates, and not by coming forth himself visibly to execute the laws. Where “human†laws fail, however, he often takes vengeance into his own hands, and by the plague, or some signal judgments, sweeps the guilty into eternity.
-Albert Barnes



a revenge to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil;
he is a defender of the laws, a vindicator of divine justice, an avenger of the wrongs of men; and his business is to inflict proper punishment, which is meant by wrath, upon delinquents.
- John Gill


Rom 13:4 The sword -
The instrument of capital punishment, which God authorizes him to inflict.
-John Wesley


For he is the minister of God, a revenger -
???? ???????? ????? ???????, For he is God’s vindictive minister, to execute wrath; ??? ?????, to inflict punishment upon the transgressors of the law; and this according to the statutes of that law; for God’s civil ministers are never allowed to pronounce or inflict punishment according to their own minds or feeling, but according to the express declarations of the law.
-Adam Clarke

Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
(1Co 9:7 KJV)


G4754
???????????
strateuomai
Thayer Definition:
1) to make a military expedition, to lead soldiers to war or to battle, (spoken of a commander)
2) to do military duty, be on active service, be a soldier
3) to fight
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: middle voice from the base of G4756
Citing in TDNT: 7:701, 1091

And the Strongs says...

G4754
???????????
strateuomai
strat-yoo'-om-ahee
Middle voice from the base of G4756; to serve in a military campaign; figuratively to execute the apostolate (with its arduous duties and functions), to contend with carnal inclinations: - soldier, (go to) war (-fare).

1Co 9:7
Who goeth a warfare - at his own charges? -
These questions, which are all supposed from the necessity and propriety of the cases to be answered in the affirmative, tend more forcibly to point out that the common sense of man joins with the providence of God in showing the propriety of every man living by the fruits of his labor. The first question applies particularly to the case of the apostle, ??? ??????????? ?????? ????????· Does a soldier provide his own victuals? ??????? is used to express the military pay or wages, by the Greek writers; for the Roman soldiers were paid not only in money but in victuals; and hence corn was usually distributed among them. See on Luk_3:14 (note).
-Adaam Clarke

There IS a time for war.

Ecc 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
Ecc 3:2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
Ecc 3:3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
Ecc 3:4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
Ecc 3:5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
Ecc 3:6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
Ecc 3:7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
Ecc 3:8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, and elect, and faithful."
(Rev 17:14 EMTV)

For they are spirits of demons performing signs, which go forth to the kings of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
(Rev 16:14 EMTV)

 

[tjw]

Is Jesus OK with physical self-defense?

You mean killing your attacker? No.

Can you list Scriptures for your reason... I just want to see where you are coming from with this and go over each of the Scriptures that you list.

 

[shad]

Can you list Scriptures for your reason... I just want to see where you are coming from with this and go over each of the Scriptures that you list.

Here you go tjw:

38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[g] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
Love for Enemies
43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Matt4:38-48

 

[shad]

There is a time for war, for self defense....sorry...your 'proverbs' there dont change that fact.

Here is what Jesus' says:

38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[g] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
Love for Enemies
43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Matt4:38-48

 

[shad]

Is Jesus OK with physical self-defense?

I don’t know for sure, but I think the Lord is okay with physical self-defense, plus physical self-defense of those we care about.

Here is what Jesus says:

38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[g] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
Love for Enemies
43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Matt4:38-48

 

[shad]

I am not trying to discredit shad in this post if that is the impression. I would clearly like to understand why someone would not defend themselves or others with force if neccessary!

Here is what Jesus says:

38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[g] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
Love for Enemies
43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Matt4:38-48

 

[shad]

But we DO have a bit of an indicator that scripture DOESNT forbid it....

Jesus says clearly to love your enemy. People who try to harm you are your enemy. We don't love our enemy by killing or harming them.

 

[tjw]

Can you list Scriptures for your reason... I just want to see where you are coming from with this and go over each of the Scriptures that you list.

Here you go tjw:

38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[g] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
Love for Enemies
43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Matt4:38-48

Thanks for the Scriptures.

Let's break them down...

- "Do not resist an evil person."
- "If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also."
- "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you"

It seems like the Scriptures you posted break down into these main points regarding self-defense, correct?

 

[shad]

Here you go tjw:

38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[g] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person.
43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
Matt4:38-48

Thanks for the Scriptures.

Let's break them down...

- "Do not resist an evil person."
- "If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also."
- "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you"

It seems like the Scriptures you posted break down into these main points regarding self-defense, correct?

You didn't break them down, you combined them. You see how Jesus says "You have heard it said" for every NEW thing that He was talking about?
This Scripture is not talking about self-defense. It's talking about refraining from retribution. "Eye for an Eye" was an OT law of retribution and revenge. Jesus was revoking that.

 

[tjw]

Here you go tjw:

38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[g] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person.
43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
Matt4:38-48

Thanks for the Scriptures.

Let's break them down...

- "Do not resist an evil person."
- "If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also."
- "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you"

It seems like the Scriptures you posted break down into these main points regarding self-defense, correct?

You didn't break them down, you combined them. You see how Jesus says "You have heard it said" for every NEW thing that He was talking about?
This Scripture is not talking about self-defense. It's talking about refraining from retribution. "Eye for an Eye" was an OT law of retribution and revenge. Jesus was revoking that.

My last post was just the beginning of breaking down the Scriptures you posted.

Do you agree that these (- "Do not resist an evil person."
- "If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also."
- "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you") are the main bullet points that the Scriptures you posted are saying regading self-defense and whether it is OK or not?

 

[shad]

You didn't break them down, you combined them. You see how Jesus says "You have heard it said" for every NEW thing that He was talking about?
This Scripture is not talking about self-defense. It's talking about refraining from retribution. "Eye for an Eye" was an OT law of retribution and revenge. Jesus was revoking that.

My last post was just the beginning of breaking down the Scriptures you posted.

Do you agree that these (- "Do not resist an evil person." "If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you") are the main bullet points that the Scriptures you posted are saying regading self-defense and whether it is OK or not?[/quote]
These are the main bullet points on what the Scriptures have to say about killing in self-defense, yes.

 

[Mike]

Wow. I'm really surprised to see people who wouldn't act in self defense if their life or the lives of others are being threatened. (or say they wouldn't - you never know if you never have)

Looking at the way believers faced the threat of death with passive acceptance, in most cases isn't relevant in today's world. Flags are going up right now, I know. Let me explain.

In early church times, Christians were living under severe persecution. They had little in the way of self defense, and even more importantly, they were faced with the decision to deny their faith or die. In many parts of the world, this is happening. Persecution continues. If I were under persecution, had no means to defend myself, and was being forced to deny my faith or die, I have to believe I would stay true unto my death.

HOWEVER! If I am faced with a person who is acting violently to the point of threatening me or my family's lives, the attacker will be the one who decides if it needs to end in death. My instinct likely wouldn't be to kill the person at first. It would be to defend my family or myself. From that point, the attacker's action will determine if it needs to be ratcheted up to severe injury or death. If he's that bent on going to those extremes, it will be him or me. If I'm able, I'll help him bring certain harm on himself, death if need be. But that won't be on me. It'll be on him.

Easy for a pacifist who has never been threatened to claim some moral high ground. I'm just saying you don't know until you have to know.

 

[shad]

Easy for a pacifist who has never been threatened to claim some moral high ground. I'm just saying you don't know until you have to know.

Jesus says if you love your friends, family and your country more than Him, you cannot be His disciple. It is not easy to follow Jesus.

We cannot obey Jesus if we are not even prepared to die when we face real difficult situation. It seems that most of us are fully prepared to disobey Jesus when situation becomes "too difficult". It is sad.

 

[jasoncran]

shad, have you ever faced death from afar or near, watched a man die, seen blood, and how much a person bleeds when stabbed. or gargle from being slit in his throat.

some of these i have.


have you ever heard death(your death) coming in a whistle? in coming artillery is what i am talking about

let me know. i have and it was scary the first time. you will panic and hide. oh crap in coming. where i do go.!that heart will be a pumpin, and you pray Lord i dont want to die! let me live for tommorow and make all kinds of promises.


i have, and its scary. you dont know what you will do, if its time for you to die, you can smell it before it happens.