Self-defense

[shad]

shad, have you ever faced death from afar or near, watched a man die, seen blood, and how much a person bleeds when stabbed. or gargle from being slit in his throat.

So because you have been faced with real evil things you are prepared to disobey Jesus' commandment. I know I am prepared to do God's will. God gave us the Bible to learn to be faithful. I will strive to be faithful no matter what.

 

[jasoncran]

shad, have you ever faced death from afar or near, watched a man die, seen blood, and how much a person bleeds when stabbed. or gargle from being slit in his throat.

So because you have been faced with real evil things you are prepared to disobey Jesus' commandment. I know I am prepared to do God's will. God gave us the Bible to learn to be faithful. I will strive to be faithful no matter what.

plan all you want shad, that fear of death will take you shad.

you have no clue, do you. if the lord doesnt give you peace, you will be scared thus the prayers i mentioned. and no man's long's for death.

no then do you really want to die? tell me the truth shad. can you honestly say that you have no fear of death?

i dont want to die. i was scare witles but as i got used to living with death at the door daily, i had the best church one could imagine, as tommorow i might see him.

in war for me was the best of times and the worst of times. do i want to go back , no. but those that might die the next day tend to worship a little more real then here.

oh but how can that be. cause we learn to be leaning on the lord.

 

[tjw]

shad, have you ever faced death from afar or near, watched a man die, seen blood, and how much a person bleeds when stabbed. or gargle from being slit in his throat.

So because you have been faced with real evil things you are prepared to disobey Jesus' commandment. I know I am prepared to do God's will. God gave us the Bible to learn to be faithful. I will strive to be faithful no matter what.

We need to breakdown the Scriptures you posted. And this is for everyone in this thread: What did Jesus mean when He said, "Do not resist an evil person"?

We can start with that one...

 

[Mike]

Easy for a pacifist who has never been threatened to claim some moral high ground. I'm just saying you don't know until you have to know.

Jesus says if you love your friends, family and your country more than Him, you cannot be His disciple. It is not easy to follow Jesus.

We cannot obey Jesus if we are not even prepared to die when we face real difficult situation. It seems that most of us are fully prepared to disobey Jesus when situation becomes "too difficult". It is sad.

Shad, I'm not sure you read much of what I wrote. If you are prepared to not come to the defense of the vulnerable, I would suggest that you are not defending your faith or your Lord. I don't doubt your faith for a minute, so the alternative is, I believe you would step in to protect a 2-year-old in the face a threat. If that only means verbally berating the threat and talking them out of violence, good enough. If he continues to force himself toward the child, would you physically restrain the person? I hope so. If he branded a knife and showed intent to injure the child, would you do that which is in your power to protect the child? Would you risk your life for this defenseless child by standing up to danger? I hope so. And if this person pulled out a glock and aimed it at the child's head, would you do everything necessary to protect this vulnerable child? Again, I hope so. If you can deny you'd do any of this, I would say you are not running to the defense of the defenseless. If you'd do some of it, then you're creating your own standard for defense of the defenseless.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

I never said their isnt a time for war. Indeed there is, the question is WHAT KIND and BY WHO?

As Christians WE are only called to ONE kind of war.
2Cr 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
2Cr 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
2Cr 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
2Cr 10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

1Ti 1:18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;

There is a time for us to war, but it is ALWAYS a spiritual one.

There is ALSO a time for the WORLD to war but that is not what we are called to do. Romans 13 speaks of government authorities- and it speaks of them as if they are SEPERATE FROM US. God has made THEM in postions to war. He has made them avengers of evil- BUT WE ARE TOLD NOT TO AVENGE. What the Lord purposes to use the world and the unbeleivers for, for the good of His plan is completely seperate from the way He purposes to use Us HIS PEOPLE who are called to a higher calling. So the world wars with itself and it will war against us but we are only called to spiritual warfare, and we are never called to avenge any disobedience- UNTIL THE END OF THE WORLD WHEN OUR OBEDIENCE IS MADE FULL AND THEN WE WILL JUDGE THE WORLD.


These two biblical facts are written one chapter after another because they show the differnce between Gods purpose for us and how we are to obey him, and Gods purpose for the worldly governments and how he uses them.

Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.


Rom 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.


Rom 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.


WE are never to avenge but instead we are to give place to wrath and overcome evil with good. But the Lord says that the worldly powers ordained of him are for revenge

Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.


So which side ya wanna be on?

 

[Guest]

Is Jesus OK with physical self-defense?

I don’t know for sure, but I think the Lord is okay with physical self-defense, plus physical self-defense of those we care about.

Here is what Jesus says:

38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[g] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
Love for Enemies
43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Matt4:38-48

Your passage is meant for individuals and their hatred and vengefulness, chap...it ISNT about not defending the innocent even by force...sorry.

 

[Guest]

I am not trying to discredit shad in this post if that is the impression. I would clearly like to understand why someone would not defend themselves or others with force if neccessary!

Here is what Jesus says:

38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[g] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
Love for Enemies
43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Matt4:38-48

Since we're just copying and pasting the SAME thing over and over here, chap...Ill do the same....



There is a time for war, for self defense....sorry...your 'proverbs' there dont change that fact.

For he is God's servant to you for good. But if you do evil, fear; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's servant, an avenger for wrath to the one practicing evil.
(Rom 13:4 EMTV)

For he beareth not the sword in vain -
The “sword†is an instrument of punishment, as well as an emblem of war. Princes were accustomed to wear a sword as an emblem of their authority; and the “sword†was often used for the purpose of “beheading,†or otherwise punishing the guilty. The meaning of the apostle is, that he does not wear this badge of authority as an unmeaningful show, but that it will be used to execute the laws. As this is the design of the power intrusted to him, and as he will “exercise†his authority, people should be influenced “by fear†to keep the law, even if there were no better motive.

A revenger ... -
In Rom_12:19, vengeance is said to belong to God. Yet he “executes†his vengeance by means of subordinate agents. It belongs to him to take vengeance by direct judgments, by the plague, famine, sickness, or earthquakes; by the appointment of magistrates; or by letting loose the passions of people to prey upon each other. When a magistrate inflicts punishment on the guilty, it is to be regarded as the act of God taking vengeance “by him;†and on this principle only is it right for a judge to condemn a man to death. It is not because one man has by nature any right over the life of another, or because “society†has any right collectively which it has not as individuals; but because “God†gave life, and because he has chosen to take it away when crime is committed by the appointment of magistrates, and not by coming forth himself visibly to execute the laws. Where “human†laws fail, however, he often takes vengeance into his own hands, and by the plague, or some signal judgments, sweeps the guilty into eternity.
-Albert Barnes



a revenge to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil;
he is a defender of the laws, a vindicator of divine justice, an avenger of the wrongs of men; and his business is to inflict proper punishment, which is meant by wrath, upon delinquents.
- John Gill


Rom 13:4 The sword -
The instrument of capital punishment, which God authorizes him to inflict.
-John Wesley


For he is the minister of God, a revenger -
???? ???????? ????? ???????, For he is God’s vindictive minister, to execute wrath; ??? ?????, to inflict punishment upon the transgressors of the law; and this according to the statutes of that law; for God’s civil ministers are never allowed to pronounce or inflict punishment according to their own minds or feeling, but according to the express declarations of the law.
-Adam Clarke

Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
(1Co 9:7 KJV)


G4754
???????????
strateuomai
Thayer Definition:
1) to make a military expedition, to lead soldiers to war or to battle, (spoken of a commander)
2) to do military duty, be on active service, be a soldier
3) to fight
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: middle voice from the base of G4756
Citing in TDNT: 7:701, 1091

And the Strongs says...

G4754
???????????
strateuomai
strat-yoo'-om-ahee
Middle voice from the base of G4756; to serve in a military campaign; figuratively to execute the apostolate (with its arduous duties and functions), to contend with carnal inclinations: - soldier, (go to) war (-fare).

1Co 9:7
Who goeth a warfare - at his own charges? -
These questions, which are all supposed from the necessity and propriety of the cases to be answered in the affirmative, tend more forcibly to point out that the common sense of man joins with the providence of God in showing the propriety of every man living by the fruits of his labor. The first question applies particularly to the case of the apostle, ??? ??????????? ?????? ????????· Does a soldier provide his own victuals? ??????? is used to express the military pay or wages, by the Greek writers; for the Roman soldiers were paid not only in money but in victuals; and hence corn was usually distributed among them. See on Luk_3:14 (note).
-Adaam Clarke

There IS a time for war.

Ecc 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
Ecc 3:2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
Ecc 3:3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
Ecc 3:4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
Ecc 3:5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
Ecc 3:6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
Ecc 3:7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
Ecc 3:8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, and elect, and faithful."
(Rev 17:14 EMTV)

For they are spirits of demons performing signs, which go forth to the kings of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
(Rev 16:14 EMTV)

 

[Guest]

Wow. I'm really surprised to see people who wouldn't act in self defense if their life or the lives of others are being threatened. (or say they wouldn't - you never know if you never have)

They dont know....thats for certain.
But it is amazing how many supposed christians claim that they would sit back with some pious smirk while their wife or daughter was being brutally raped and ripped apart.
and they actually think GOD is going to look down on them and smile or something.
Theyre in for a surprise if it happens that way,for certain.

Easy for a pacifist who has never been threatened to claim some moral high ground. I'm just saying you don't know until you have to know.

Exactly.
And we all know that if and when the time comes they'll defend themselves and their families just like the rest of us would.
Its inevitable...

 

[Guest]

Easy for a pacifist who has never been threatened to claim some moral high ground. I'm just saying you don't know until you have to know.

Jesus says if you love your friends, family and your country more than Him, you cannot be His disciple. It is not easy to follow Jesus.

We cannot obey Jesus if we are not even prepared to die when we face real difficult situation. It seems that most of us are fully prepared to disobey Jesus when situation becomes "too difficult". It is sad.

Nice try poster.
But we're not discussing whether we should be willing to die for our faith....we're talking about whether we should sit with some self righteous grin on our faces while we watch our daughters be raped and slaughtered.
Your Jesus may be ok with that, but THE Jesus isnt.

I will say this...and I mean it in the worst possible manner...dont ever get married or have children....you arent worthy of either....

 

[Guest]

shad, have you ever faced death from afar or near, watched a man die, seen blood, and how much a person bleeds when stabbed. or gargle from being slit in his throat.

So because you have been faced with real evil things you are prepared to disobey Jesus' commandment. I know I am prepared to do God's will. God gave us the Bible to learn to be faithful. I will strive to be faithful no matter what.

What we're saying, chap, is that since you HAVENT faced anything in your life yet, its easy for you to talk the talk and pretend that you know Jesus' intent when all youve done is PERVERT what He was teaching HARDHEARTED JEWS who hated pretty much everyone into some excuse for YOU to sit back and watch your own family be slaughtered thinking youre doing HIS will....you aint....sorry.

 

[Guest]

I never said their isnt a time for war. Indeed there is, the question is WHAT KIND and BY WHO?

As Christians WE are only called to ONE kind of war.

Dead WRONG, poster....sorry.
Pulling out some verses about the SPIRITUAL war we ALL face has NOTHING to do with a PHYSICAL war that we could end up in.
Get a clue for crying out loud and stop playing teacher when you arent....

 

[shad]

What we're saying, chap, is that since you HAVENT faced anything in your life yet, its easy for you to talk the talk and pretend that you know Jesus' intent when all youve done is PERVERT what He was teaching HARDHEARTED JEWS who hated pretty much everyone into some excuse for YOU to sit back and watch your own family be slaughtered thinking youre doing HIS will....you aint....sorry.

So you just dishonor Jesus' commandment because it is so hard? Jesus says "if you love Me, keep my commandments". He is not expecting His followers to not to love Him when things get tough. Just because you cannot do it, don't change what Jesus' commands.

 

[shad]

Nice try poster.
But we're not discussing whether we should be willing to die for our faith....we're talking about whether we should sit with some self righteous grin on our faces while we watch our daughters be raped and slaughtered.
Your Jesus may be ok with that, but THE Jesus isnt.

I will say this...and I mean it in the worst possible manner...dont ever get married or have children....you arent worthy of either....

Jesus' commandments apply to any situation whether it is at a difficult time or an easy time. You have no right to change around His word for your convenience.

 

[Guest]

The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed. For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.
(Mat 8:8-13 KJV)

Huh.....no mention there to quit his day job and Jesus even HEALED this military mans servant !
Would have been a perfect point for Jesus to TELL the guy to stop being a soldier IF it were required !

 

[Guest]

So you just dishonor Jesus' commandment because it is so hard? Jesus says "if you love Me, keep my commandments". He is not expecting His followers to not to love Him when things get tough. Just because you cannot do it, don't change what Jesus' commands.

I keep HIS commandments, chap...just not YOUR perversion of them...
Back to the topic....

 

[Guest]

Jesus' commandments apply to any situation whether it is at a difficult time or an easy time. You have no right to change around His word for your convenience.

Nor do wimpy false teachers who dont seem to comprehend His words who clearly arent worthy of wives and children whom theyd sit back and watch as they were slaughtered.

 

[Guest]

Jesus' commandments apply to any situation whether it is at a difficult time or an easy time. You have no right to change around His word for your convenience.

And by the way....chap....how, exactly, is this about my 'convenience' ?
Youre being asinine....there is NOTHING convenient about having to use force to stop a crime !


pathetic.

 

[shad]

And by the way....chap....how, exactly, is this about my 'convenience' ?

It is convenient because you make excuses when it is difficult.

 

[jasoncran]

And by the way....chap....how, exactly, is this about my 'convenience' ?

It is convenient because you make excuses when it is difficult.

shad, have you ever been in that situation, staring a barrel and knowing that may be the last thing you see?

if not then might i suggest humbleness as wmtipton if i recall did. and its easy to talk the trash but when you face will you really be able to.

a man named peter told the lord that he would never deny him, yet in fear of his neck he did just that. and even the lord told him that.

so i know that none of us here are apostles.

 

[Guest]

And by the way....chap....how, exactly, is this about my 'convenience' ?

It is convenient because you make excuses when it is difficult.

PUHlease.....you dont know what difficult even is, poster.

You ABUSE His word just like the Jews did.
Jesus DIDNT nullify precepts like 'eye for an eye', pal.....He CORRECTED the JEWS ABUSE of these precepts.
THEY, being hardhearted/hateful, used 'eye for an eye' to get REVENGE and constantly had evil in their hearts.
Jesus taught them to NOT be that way ....THAT is the context that you casually throw out to suit YOUR vile purposes.

Jesus WASNT making some claim that we are to sit and watch while some nut rips our child or wife apart and this vomit that followers of satan spew out against His children who WILL protect their families as they are able is enough to make believers wretch up their collective lunches...