Self Righteousness

[Qchan]

I also sometimes am perplexed by someone who looks at the Blood of Christ, the theology of Paul,.... & then just ignores this completely and runs to James to try to exchange works for Grace.
Why ....... FIGHT the Gift of pardon with works?
Why try to avoid BOOKS in the NT written by Paul to then run to a verse in Hebrews and a verse in James to try to build a false personal salvation that is not built on the Cross's finished work.....but is instead looking to self effort to attain and keep salvation if they can "endure to the end"....etc.
Now, they'll say......"no no no"", but, if you ask them if they can lose their salvation, they will say, "of course"......and this is their very anti-Grace position that tries to delete Eph 2:8-10 right out of the bible..
So, how to explain that someone who claims to be a "believer".... will then tell you all their reasons they can think of to try to prove that the Blood of JESUS is not enough to keep them saved and it needs THEIR WORKS....< to complete their salvation
You can take them to 1st John 5, and show them that if they have Jesus then they already have eternal life, and they can KNOW IT, according to John, as he explains that Jesus IS Eternal life, so if you have him......and all believers do have him, inside..........and yet they will run right to Hebrews or James and use their 2 memorized verses to try to deny what John just told them they ALREADY HAVE FOR ETERNITY.
Amazing, but not in a good way.

Listen, you and i know we cant save ourselves, while others pretend they are exercising Faith through works, when in reality they are trying to save themselves by works because they dont really BELIEVE that FAITH ALONE is the Key.
So, is the root of it, self righteousness, or is it just that they cant accept a free gift.?
Perhaps what happened to them is that they were led to James and Hebrews and Matthew way too early in their baby Christian stage by other legalists, and so how could they have realized at that early state of their Christianity that they needed to be knee deep in Romans, Galatians, Colossians, Philippians, to establish themselves in "GRACE", before they became entangled with the..."if we sin willfully" and "faith without works" mindset lock down that has them theologically strangled and gagging on self effort and the fear of hell.
One thing you'll notice, is that these self-saving types will always run to a book written to the "Hebrews", or passages that talk about confessing sins or dead faith, to try to prove why they cant just enjoy eternal life and what the Blood of Jesus has accomplished FOR THEM, so that they dont have to worry about keeping their salvation by stressing out over works.

So, to answer you simply
You and I and others who understand Grace as a GIFT, realize that all credit for it is do the one who allowed us to have it, and so, we dont play with Salvation or de-esteem it by trying to pretend that we have to earn what was given for free, yet cost Jesus everything to provide.

Funny that you mention one's fear of hell. I don't believe in hell either. Hell is contrary to God's nature.

a) The bible says God is love. (1 John 4:8)

So, what does that mean? Well, the bible goes into insane detail on what that means. It explains who God is and what his personality traits are. Here is who God is (I've bolded the really important parts):

1) God doesn't lie - Titus 1:2
2) God will not accuse someone forever - Psalms 103:9 & Isaiah 57:16
3) God will not harbor his anger forever - Psalms 103:9 & Isaiah 57:16 & Psalms 30:5
4) God is merciful - Deut 4:31
5) God is loving - John 4:8
6) God is peaceful - Heb 13:20
7) God loves his enemies - Luke 6:35 & 1 Cor 13
8) God is kind to those who are unthankful and evil - Luke 6:35
9) God does not cast people off forever - Lam 3:31
10) God does not keep a record of the wrong any one did forever - 1 Corinthians 13:5
11) God is love - 1 John 4:8 & 1 Cor 13
12) God is kind - 1 John 4:8 & 1 Cor 13
13) God is patient - 1 John 4:8 & 1 Cor 13
14) God does not envy - 1 John 4:8 & 1 Cor 13
15) God does not boast - 1 John 4:8 & 1 Cor 13
16) God is not self seeking - 1 John 4:8 & 1 Cor 13
17) God is not prideful - 1 John 4:8 & 1 Cor 13
18) God is not easily angered - 1 John 4:8 & 1 Cor 13
19) God will never fail in anything he attempts to do - 1 John 4:8 & 1 Cor 13
20) God is compassionate - 1 John 4:8 & 1 Cor 13
21) God is gentle (to be considerate and kindly in disposition, not harsh or severe and easily managed or handled.) - 1 John 4:8 & 1 Cor 13

b) I'm not a universalist, but I do believe hell doesn't exist. The concept of a hell is a paganistic belief that was introduced to Christianity through the Latin Catholic Vulgate. "Hell" was translated to the KJV bible from the word "infernus" from the Vulgate. Sheol, Hades, Gehenna and Tartarus were all loosely mistranslated to hell. Notice, that in modern bibles, the word "hell" doesn't exist anywhere in the old testament. If the Jews don't believe in hell, then why should anybody else? After all, Christians and Jews worship the same God; The same God of Abraham, Moses and Elijah. Our Old Testament is the same as their Torah; word for word. The Jews are God's people, yet they are not taught hell. If hell was real, wouldn't people think the Jews would be the first people to know?

If people honestly think hell exists, then I believe they do not know God. If hell existed, then parts 2, 3, 7, 8, 9 and 10 would all be lies. If the Word is God (John 1:1), and God isn't a man that he should lie (Numbers 23:19), then obviously all the parts I listed are NOT lies. Therefore, hell doesn't exist.

What's your take on that?

 

[Kidron]

Jesus had been resurrected at 30 yrs before this verse was written so many of them may have not ever seen Jesus.
Would you say that those in Hebrews 10 had been saved, seeing the scripture says they had been sanctified by His blood?

Ok, so you are certain that none of them had seen Jesus, or heard of him, or heard the Gospel at least once, or ever seen Paul, or heard Paul preach, or seen an Apostle do the "Signs of an Apostle", (2 Corin 12:12).
So, you are certain that these HEBREWS were all saved, even tho they are not being address with any type of normal greeting that Paul uses when he writes Letters to the CHURCHES.
Follow me?
Go and read how he GREETS a body of believers in his letters and compare it to how he begins the letter to the HEBREWS.
Check that out.

Now to answer your question.
Why, would Paul start in vs 7, and continue to vs 32, talking about blood and goats and sacrifices regarding the previous history of the JEW and GOD, and then take this sermon and bring it to Jesus and the Grace of God, if he is not PREACHING TO LOST JEWS?
And in the end, he warns them, not to neglect this message, this Gospel, he has just told them about.
Paul never talked to believers in any other letter about how they can go to hell.......EVER.
This is because he knows that believers are not going to hell, cant.
So, why ONLY in this one book to HEBREWS, do you think he's talking to the Church when he is obviously not.????

And about being sanctified..
Well, the Pardon for the world has already been performed.
Forgiveness, sanctification, redemption, is already DONE, but it has not yet been ACCESSED by everyone.
This is why we are told to GO.
We are to tell them what God has ALREADY DONE, that they can HAVE.
So, when Paul is talking about how the Blood has Sanctified, he is talking about the fact of the completed work of Jesus for everyone.
Its been done, but it has not been ACCESSED by everyone, YET.
Forgiveness for everyone is not the issue, its done....but the Application of the forgiveness has not been applied to everyone.
That is what the whole thing is about.
Its about getting the Gospel out to everyone, so that the can know they are sanctified and redeemed, thats it done, but they is a Specific WAY to get it, and only one Way.
These unsaved Hebrews are being told this, and i suspect, not for the first time.


K

 

[Kidron]

Funny that you mention one's fear of hell. I don't believe in hell either. Hell is contrary to God's nature.

a) The bible says God is love. (1 John 4:8)

So, what does that mean? Well, the bible goes into insane detail on what that means. It explains who God is and what his personality traits are. Here is who God is (I've bolded the really important parts):

1) God doesn't lie - Titus 1:2
2) God will not accuse someone forever - Psalms 103:9 & Isaiah 57:16
3) God will not harbor his anger forever - Psalms 103:9 & Isaiah 57:16 & Psalms 30:5
4) God is merciful - Deut 4:31
5) God is loving - John 4:8
6) God is peaceful - Heb 13:20
7) God loves his enemies - Luke 6:35 & 1 Cor 13
8) God is kind to those who are unthankful and evil - Luke 6:35
9) God does not cast people off forever - Lam 3:31
10) God does not keep a record of the wrong any one did forever - 1 Corn 13:5
11) God is love - 1 John 4:8 & 1 Cor 13
12) God is kind - 1 John 4:8 & 1 Cor 13
13) God is patient - 1 John 4:8 & 1 Cor 13
14) God does not envy - 1 John 4:8 & 1 Cor 13
15) God does not boast - 1 John 4:8 & 1 Cor 13
16) God is not self seeking - 1 John 4:8 & 1 Cor 13
17) God is not prideful - 1 John 4:8 & 1 Cor 13
18) God is not easily angered - 1 John 4:8 & 1 Cor 13
19) God will never fail in anything he attempts to do - 1 John 4:8 & 1 Cor 13
20) God is compassionate - 1 John 4:8 & 1 Cor 13
21) God is gentle (to be considerate and kindly in disposition, not harsh or severe and easily managed or handled.) - 1 John 4:8 & 1 Cor 13

b) I'm not a universalist, but I do believe hell doesn't exist. The concept of a hell is a paganistic belief that was introduced to Christianity through the Latin Catholic Vulgate. "Hell" was translated to the KJV bible from the word "infernus" from the Vulgate. Sheol, Hades, Gehenna and Tartarus were all loosely mistranslated to hell. Notice, that in modern bibles, the word "hell" doesn't exist anywhere in the old testament. If the Jews don't believe in hell, then why should anybody else? After all, Christians and Jews worship the same God; The same God of Abraham, Moses and Elijah. Our Old Testament is the same as their Torah; word for word. The Jews are God's people, yet they are not taught hell. If hell was real, wouldn't people think the Jews would be the first people to know?

If people honestly think hell exists, then I believe they do not know God. If hell existed, then parts 2, 3, 7, 8, 9 and 10 would all be lies. If the Word is God (John 1:1), and God isn't a man that he should lie (Numbers 23:19), then obviously all the parts I listed are NOT lies. Therefore, hell doesn't exist.

What's your take on that?

-
Are you familiar with Sodom and what happened there?
Ive been to the Gomorrah area.....it was burned and everyone in it.
(i posted a pic on the photography thread here of a road sign that leads you to Sodom)
The story of Noah, and what happened to every living person who was not on the boat?
Thats not a myth.
Have you read "Vengeance is mine saith the LORD"?... Romans 12:15
Are you familiar with the concept of ''" for I the Lord your God, am a Jealous God". Exodus 20:5
You are familiar with the fact that Jesus died as a Lamb and will come back as a Lion, and its not pretty what happens when he does?
Have you read 2nd Thess 1:8......""""In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:""""
So, those ^^^^^^^^^^ are also God, who is Love.

Now, to your question....
well, living eternal souls have to go somewhere after they die.
And Christ Rejectors are not going to like it in Heaven, now are they?
"oh Hey Jesus, sorry i hated you all my life, and liked to use your name as a cuss word 23 times a day, and told everyone that you were not real, and ....by the way, can i have some grapes"...
I dont think thats going to work very well, Qchan.

So, Hell, generally is just a destination, its a semi-final place that is not the final destination for unredeemed Souls/ Christ rejectors.
And why, as i said before, and will say again.... would God die on a cross to redeem some that would love him, and then allow those that hate him & who rejected him all their lives....... to end up all in the same place for eternity.?
Im sorry but that does not compute with reality.
Call it what you want, rename it to suit your theology, however, Christ Rejectors are going somewhere, and its not going to be a party palace.
These 2 groups are not ending up in the same place.

Also, Jesus spoke of Hell often.
He said its better to tear out your own eyes then to go there.
I dont think he's referring to a city dump outside the gates of Jerusalem.

 

[Qchan]

Well, living eternal souls have to go somewhere after they die.
And Christ Rejectors are not going to like it in Heaven, now are they?
"oh Hey Jesus, sorry i hated you all my life, and liked to use your name as a cuss word 23 times a day, and told everyone that you were not real, and ....by the way, can i have some grapes"...
I dont think thats going to work very well, Qchan.

So, Hell, generally is just a destination, its a semi-final place that is not the final destination for unredeemed Souls/ Christ rejectors.
And why, as i said before, and will say again.... would God die on a cross to redeem some that would love him, and then allow those that hate him & who rejected him all their lives....... to end up in the same place for eternity.
Im sorry but that does not compute with reality.
Call it what you want, rename it to suit your theology, however, Christ Rejectors are going somewhere, and its not going to be a party palace.
These 2 groups are not ending up in the same place.

Also, Jesus spoke of Hell often.
He said its better to tear out your own eyes then to go there.
I dont think he's referring to a city dump outside the gates of Jerusalem.

Alrighty. Thanks for the prompt reply...

I'll make a few premises, and you just let me know if you agree to them.

1) God is all powerful
2) There's nothing too hard for God
3) All things are possible for God
4) God knows the past, present and future.

Would you agree with these premises?

 

[Deborah13]

Ok, so you are certain that none of them had seen Jesus, or heard of him, or heard the Gospel at least once, or ever seen Paul, or heard Paul preach, or seen an Apostle do the "Signs of an Apostle", (2 Corin 12:12).
So, you are certain that these HEBREWS were all saved, even tho they are not being address with any type of normal greeting that Paul uses when he writes Letters to the CHURCHES.
Follow me?

No I don't follow because I didn't say none of them had not seen or heard Jesus, heard the Gospel, etc., etc,. Neither did I say that all were saved. I didn't even mention Paul.
So I won't bother you again.

 

[Kidron]

Alrighty. Thanks for the prompt reply...

I'll make a few premises, and you just let me know if you agree to them.

1) God is all powerful
2) There's nothing too hard for God
3) All things are possible for God
4) God knows the past, present and future.

Would you agree with these premises?

This first.

Are you familiar with Sodom and what happened there?
Ive been to the Gomorrah area.....it was burned and everyone in it.
(i posted a pic on the photography thread here of a road sign that leads you to Sodom)
The story of Noah, and what happened to every living person who was not on the boat?
Thats not a myth.
Have you read "Vengeance is mine saith the LORD"?... Romans 12:15
Are you familiar with the concept of ''" for I the Lord your God, am a Jealous God". Exodus 20:5
You are familiar with the fact that Jesus died as a Lamb and will come back as a Lion, and its not pretty what happens when he does?
Have you read 2nd Thess 1:8......""""In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:""""
So, those ^^^^^^^^^^ are also God, who is Love.


and yes, i believe that God is omniscient and omnipotent.
i also believe that God has foreknowledge., sure.
He knows who will believe and who wont, before they are born, just as surely as he knew what the Devil would do with Eve before he took a rib and created Adam's helper and mate.
I also believe God is Just, and i also believe that what happened on the Cross is not something to play with, or ignore.

 

[Kidron]

No I don't follow because I didn't say none of them had not seen or heard Jesus, heard the Gospel, etc., etc,. Neither did I say that all were saved. I didn't even mention Paul.
So I won't bother you again.

Are you bothering me?
I dont think so.
Did i bother you with my answers?
Look, there are some on this forum who wont answer questions, cant answer questions, and are offended if they are asked.
Im not them.
If you ask me something, then im going to be very direct and clear so that you have an answer, instead of some vague obtuse mumbo jumbo.
I owe this to anyone, you, who takes the time to come to me and talk.
I welcome you here with me, anytime you like.
You cant offend me, i appreciate your questions... and im happy to listen to your point of view, but i would hope that you would consider mine as well.

kind regards,

K

 

[Qchan]

This first.

Are you familiar with Sodom and what happened there?
Ive been to the Gomorrah area.....it was burned and everyone in it.
(i posted a pic on the photography thread here of a road sign that leads you to Sodom)
The story of Noah, and what happened to every living person who was not on the boat?
Thats not a myth.
Have you read "Vengeance is mine saith the LORD"?... Romans 12:15
Are you familiar with the concept of ''" for I the Lord your God, am a Jealous God". Exodus 20:5
You are familiar with the fact that Jesus died as a Lamb and will come back as a Lion, and its not pretty what happens when he does?
Have you read 2nd Thess 1:8......""""In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:""""
So, those ^^^^^^^^^^ are also God, who is Love.


and yes, i believe that God is omniscient and omnipotent.
i also believe that God has foreknowledge., sure.
He knows who will believe and who wont, before they are born, just as surely as he knew what the Devil would do with Eve before he took a rib and created Adam's helper and mate.
I also believe God is Just, and i also believe that what happened on the Cross is not something to play with, or ignore.

Great.

So, do you also agree with the following premises:

1) Satan has the power to persuade people to do what he wants them to do.
2) God has the power to persuade people to do what he wants them to do.

Do you also agree with those two premises?

 

[ivdavid]

That may be the way it sounds but is that what is meant?

I really have no issues at all with the way a statement sounds or is worded - as long as it's truth. There is a difference in what is meant here - since the one belief states that we bring something to the table to receive our salvation, and the other states that there is nothing of what we ought to do that we do or can do to receive our salvation.

Note, I'm not removing human responsibility from the equation - i do acknowledge man ought to do his part. I'm just saying man continually fails at what he ought to do - which is why you need Christ and a new covenant to work in him what he himself should've done. All Grace.

 

[ivdavid]

If faith is made out to be a condition to be fulfilled by man alone,

Faith is God's gracious gift of power given to us so that we can believe and trust in that which we can't see. Man has no capacity whatsoever to believe the gospel apart from this gracious enabling.

I thought it was quite obvious in a debate of synergism vs monergism that a person against synergism is simply referring to man's end of the salvific process when he's talking about human action. Even if not, I thought it would be clear from what else I've written in context there. I assumed it would be apparent at least given that I referred to the "condition" part that was to be fulfilled by man, unless you believe God fulfills the condition itself in man - but that's what you made clear you didn't believe. In conclusion, I apologize for the several assumptions I've made.

Let me rephrase then -
"If faith is made out to be a condition to be fulfilled by man alone, to the extent that you deem it man's responsibility to fulfill (which excludes the parts outside of man's conditional responsibility such as God's rendering the gift of power to believe etc.)....
Kindly read on from the original post.

 

[ivdavid]

What makes a believer now any different from the ones being warned in Hebrews 10:26-29?

I personally don't see any difference. I assumed it was the believers that the author was warning.

But are you taking this warning to be evidence that some of those regenerated may not ultimately end up saved?

 

[ivdavid]

If the Jews don't believe in hell, then why should anybody else? After all, Christians and Jews worship the same God; The same God of Abraham, Moses and Elijah. Our Old Testament is the same as their Torah; word for word. The Jews are God's people, yet they are not taught hell. If hell was real, wouldn't people think the Jews would be the first people to know?

Isn't that kinda faulty logic? Or are there any other unstated first premises or qualifiers?
Because I don't see your premises holding up when I replace "hell" with "Christ" or "Trinity" etc.

 

[Deborah13]

I thought it was quite obvious in a debate of synergism vs monergism that a person against synergism is simply referring to man's end of the salvific process when he's talking about human action. Even if not, I thought it would be clear from what else I've written in context there. I assumed it would be apparent at least given that I referred to the "condition" part that was to be fulfilled by man, unless you believe God fulfills the condition itself in man - but that's what you made clear you didn't believe. In conclusion, I apologize for the several assumptions I've made.

Let me rephrase then -
"If faith is made out to be a condition to be fulfilled by man alone, to the extent that you deem it man's responsibility to fulfill (which excludes the parts outside of man's conditional responsibility such as God's rendering the gift of power to believe etc.)....
Kindly read on from the original post.

I understood your post in comparing what each sounded like, the disagreement. I was agreeing with you that that is what it sounded like but maybe was not what Jethro really meant.
It seems that there is such a fine line with some of these truths that it is easy to be misunderstood when trying to explain.

 

[Deborah13]

But are you taking this warning to be evidence that some of those regenerated may not ultimately end up saved?

I take it that it is a possibility that a believer could reject the Redeemer, they could become apostate.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And about being sanctified..
Well, the Pardon for the world has already been performed.
Forgiveness, sanctification, redemption, is already DONE, but it has not yet been ACCESSED by everyone.
This is why we are told to GO.
We are to tell them what God has ALREADY DONE, that they can HAVE.
So, when Paul is talking about how the Blood has Sanctified, he is talking about the fact of the completed work of Jesus for everyone.
Its been done, but it has not been ACCESSED by everyone, YET.
Forgiveness for everyone is not the issue, its done....but the Application of the forgiveness has not been applied to everyone.
That is what the whole thing is about.
Its about getting the Gospel out to everyone, so that the can know they are sanctified and redeemed, thats it done, but they is a Specific WAY to get it, and only one Way.
These unsaved Hebrews are being told this, and i suspect, not for the first time.

No, this is not an acceptable doctrine. It defies not only the meaning of the word, it defies the context of scripture itself.

Paul explains here how he was called to the ministry to get people sanctified:

"15 ...the grace that was given me from God, 16 to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles, ministering as a priest the gospel of God, so that my offering of the Gentiles may become acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit. " (Romans 15:15 NASB)

In the Bible, sanctification (the setting apart of a person as holy--which the world is not) happens by faith in the blood. The audience of the Hebrews letter have been sanctified by the blood of Christ. That happens when you have faith in the blood of Christ.

"I have appeared to you, to appoint you a minister and a witness not only to the things which you have seen, but also to the things in which I will appear to you; 17 rescuing you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you, 18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.'" (Acts 26: NASB)

The Hebrew church is a saved church, and Paul is warning them of losing the benefit of Christ's sacrifice, and as a result, the impending Judgment of the lost, if they turn back from the sanctification they have received through their faith in the blood of Christ.

There are other plain scriptures that speak to the churches about not losing their faith. Sadly, OSAS requires one to consistently, time and time again make the scriptures mean something other than what they so plainly say.

 

[JLB]

The beauty of the Blood of Jesus, is that it does not require me to confess my sins after im saved, to keep me pardoned.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

This is written to born again Christians, of whom John is including himself, by saying "we".
John goes on to say, If we confess our sins...

Yet you say, we are not required to "confess our sins" after we are saved?

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.1 John 1:8-9

The wonder of being born again, is that i didnt do it, i cant lose it, i cant take credit for it, and i should not try to add to it by twisting scriptures to try to prove God's provision of Grace needs my self righteous help.

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge,
6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness,
7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love.
8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
2 Peter 1:5-9

God expects us to express the nature of His Son, and His righteousness within us, of which the truth is one of those aspects of His nature.

The bible calls is practicing righteousness.

Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7

Born again Christians, who practice the works of the flesh, are in danger of not inheriting the kingdom of God.

God gives us grace to mature in Christ, however when we use this grace as a license to sin, we are in danger of insulting the Spirit of Grace, and trampling the blood of the Son of God under foot, as if it were a common thing.

Expressing His righteous life, which is being led by the Spirit of God, as well as repenting of sinful behavior and habits, are part of our maturing and being conformed to the image of His Son.

giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.




JLB

 

[JLB]

Alrighty. Thanks for the prompt reply...

I'll make a few premises, and you just let me know if you agree to them.

1) God is all powerful
2) There's nothing too hard for God
3) All things are possible for God
4) God knows the past, present and future.

Would you agree with these premises?

Human reasoning won't help you to overthrow the scriptures.


Without faith, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to please God. Hebrews 11:6

Unbelieving people will have their part in the lake of fire...

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." Revelation 21:8


JLB

 

[Qchan]

Human reasoning won't help you to overthrow the scriptures.


Without faith, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to please God. Hebrews 11:6

Unbelieving people will have their part in the lake of fire...

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." Revelation 21:8


JLB

The bible says for us to reason. Isaiah 1:18
So, I'm reasoning. I've already quoted multiple scriptures and they're being ignored.

 

[JLB]

The bible says for us to reason. Isaiah 1:18
So, I'm reasoning. I've already quoted multiple scriptures and they're being ignored.

You made some premises.

I responded to this, which doesn't contain scripture, that is being ignored.

I'll make a few premises, and you just let me know if you agree to them.

1) God is all powerful
2) There's nothing too hard for God
3) All things are possible for God
4) God knows the past, present and future.

Would you agree with these premises?

16 "Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; Put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes. Cease to do evil,
17 Learn to do good; Seek justice, Rebuke the oppressor; Defend the fatherless, Plead for the widow.
18 "Come now, and let us reason together," Says the Lord, "Though your sins are like scarlet, They shall be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They shall be as wool.
19 If you are willing and obedient, You shall eat the good of the land;
20 But if you refuse and rebel, You shall be devoured by the sword"; For the mouth of the Lord has spoken.
Isaiah 1:16-20


The Lord wants to reason with His people about their lives.

He asks us to obey Him and to do what is right.

Do you believe He has changed His mind about these things that He wants to reason with His people about?


JLB

 

[LovethroughDove]

If people honestly think hell exists, then I believe they do not know God. If hell existed, then parts 2, 3, 7, 8, 9 and 10 would all be lies. If the Word is God (John 1:1), and God isn't a man that he should lie (Numbers 23:19), then obviously all the parts I listed are NOT lies. Therefore, hell doesn't exist.

What's your take on that?

Sorry this wasn't addressed to me, but I believe if people don't believe in hell......they don't really believe in the devil. The devil is a spiritual being who is the opposite of God and he needs a place to reside forever. (not with God)

Matthew 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and this angels. - - - - - unrighteous