Self Righteousness

[Kidron]

Right, it's not. That's your erroneous interpretation of it.
It's about staying saved, not getting saved over and over again.

The same process that saved you, keeps you saved.
That isn't yours to do or complete.
It is God who justifies and accepts, and he does it ONLY based on what Christ did for you, and not or EVER because you are holding on to the end hoping for the best in your head.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No.

Okay, good.

its just a believer who has been taught something unfortunate, that is causing them to put the weight of their eternal life on themselves, where it does not belong, instead of trusting in Christ and God alone to keep them eternally secure.

You used the same words I used, yet for some reason when I say them they mean 'works salvation'. I see this often in grace discussions.

In your statement above, who does the trusting?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The same process that saved you, keeps you saved.
That isn't yours to do or complete.

Who does the trusting in your statement "instead of trusting in Christ and God alone to keep them eternally secure"?

It is God who justifies and accepts, and he does it ONLY based on what Christ did for you, and not or EVER because you are holding on to the end hoping for the best in your head.

The fact that we have to trust God for what he did to get what he did for us (righteousness is given on the basis of trust in God--as you obviously agree from your statement above) shows us the free gift DOES include what we believe, and does NOT mean Christ alone minus MY trust in him.

I can hear the alarm bells going off already, "works salvation, works salvation!". But Paul did not say trust in Christ is among the works that damn a person as being self righteous. He said the works of the law constitute the works of self righteousness (when done for that reason). Yet over and over and over I'm told that when I add the condition of my 'trusting in God' I'm suddenly guilty of the self righteousness of a works salvation. And then when I ask for the scripture that says trust in Christ is also included in the works that damn a person as a self righteous person I get no response. But I expect that, because there is no scripture that says trust in Christ damns a person as being self righteous. In fact, the scriptures teach exactly the opposite:

25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.
26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith.
(Romans 3:25-27 NIV)

The boast that gets removed in Christ is not that WE had to believe something in order to be justified (declared righteous). The boast that gets removed in Christ is the boast of doing the works of the law to be declared righteous. But when I say we have to believe God in order to get and keep the benefit of Christ in salvation I'm told I'm adding the boast of my own works to salvation, as if believing is included in the works Paul says can't justify. That is nonsense.

 

[Qchan]

Jesus rebuked the Pharisees because of their self-righteousness. So, there can't possibly be any sort of justification through it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I am in disagreement with the conclusion that nothing else happens apart from the Holy Spirit dwelling within us. Of course, no new spirit is Created as such...

Which nullifies the use of an actual baby's birthed body as an analogy that shows the new spiritual birth can not be reversed either as if it never happened.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

that's just the old covenant which says I'll keep my end of the bargain as long as you keep yours. But the new covenant is that of promises alone and no conditionals - just compare Lev 18:5 and Eze 36:27.

The new Covenant has the condition of faith and trust in Jesus Christ.
It seems some grace people are afraid to acknowledge this, thinking that somehow makes the gospel a works gospel. But no where in the Bible does it say trust in Christ constitutes the damnable works of self righteousness. It says exactly the opposite:

"21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe" (Romans 3:21 NASB)

For these grace people, somewhere along the line righteousness through believing in Christ became the righteousness of law. But I see believing being directly contrasted with works of the law in the above passage, not equated with them as some grace teachings say it is for fear that saying a person must believe as a condition for righteousness is a damnable work of boasting--IOW, a work of self righteousness.

 

[ivdavid]

A person sincere in his own affairs once approached a wise man and asked him what he must do to be famous. The wise man answered that he should not seek fame in anything he does - and therein, he shall be found most famous. The person thanked the wise man, returned to his affairs and very consciously took great care in every single thing that he did to not seek fame at all.

Was the person obedient to the wise man's instruction?

I see the problem of self-righteousness and the concept of faith much like this - and my arguments are against all who'd reply in the affirmative to the above question.

..saying a person must believe as a condition for righteousness is a damnable work of boasting--IOW, a work of self righteousness.

Precisely. If faith is made out to be a condition to be fulfilled by man alone, what is the difference then between justification by law and justification by faith. The old covenant stated you shall live if you do X - and now if the new covenant states you shall live if you do Y, what essentially has changed except in the degree of what we ourselves do? The whole essence of faith is actually an acknowledgement in us, induced by God, of all that we cannot do (not what we do), including our falling short of having such faith by ourselves, much like Mark 9:24. To say our acknowledgement of such continued failure to do what we ought to do is the cause of our salvation does seem to miss the point sorely - rather, it's merely an evidence(and not the conditional cause) of the true Cause working in us all that we ourselves are completely unable to do.

 

[Kidron]

Who does the trusting in your statement "instead of trusting in Christ and God alone to keep them eternally secure"?


The fact that we have to trust God for what he did to get what he did for us (righteousness is given on the basis of trust in God--as you obviously agree from your statement above).

JB,

your bible says that... "Abraham Believed God and this was counted to him for Righteousness".

So, "Righteousness" was given to him, based on "belief"......or "faith".

So, yes, just like Abraham, and just like God requires......i have "believed", and therefore God has justified me based on my "faith".
Romans 3:21-28.

See, its GOD who justifies.
And its not my position to argue with how he did it FOR ME.
I'll instead accept that he has given me eternal life for free, and those that dont want it this way, but want to work for it and try to keep them selves saved, or in other words be "self-righteous" in their attitude towards Grace... ....well, i'll let them have at it.

 

[turnorburn]

Our mistake is when we think there is anything good within us..

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

The only righteousness is Gods righteousness.. can't get any better than that..

II Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

tob

 

[Kidron]

Okay, good.


You used the same words I used, yet for some reason when I say them they mean 'works salvation'. I see this often in grace discussions.

In your statement above, who does the trusting?

Maybe im not understanding you.
So, i'll ask you a question, and you can clarify, if you would...

Now, when i hear you describe yourself, this is how i hear you..

"""Listen Kidron, im saved by faith, but im kept saved by works.
If i dont do what James said, and work and work and work..... then i have dead faith, and that means im lost""""


So, is that you?

 

[ivdavid]

I don't think it's a case of faith vs works in the general sense...it's more subtle here.

I see it more as a debate between -
"Listen Kidron, I'm saved by MY Faith in christ, and I'm kept saved by MY Faith in christ"
vs
"Listen Kidron, I'm saved by CHRIST through my faith in CHRIST, and I'm kept saved by CHRIST through my faith in CHRIST"

The former has my faith as a conditional cause and basis for my salvation while the latter doesn't.

 

[Kidron]

I don't think it's a case of faith vs works in the general sense...it's more subtle here.

I see it more as a debate between -
"Listen Kidron, I'm saved by MY Faith in christ, and I'm kept saved by MY Faith in christ"
vs
"Listen Kidron, I'm saved by CHRIST through my faith in CHRIST, and I'm kept saved by CHRIST through my faith in CHRIST"

The former has my faith as a conditional cause and basis for my salvation while the latter doesn't.

Well, thank you, but its even more subtle then you have stated.

Try it like this..

""""God saved me, because he told me that if i would trust him to do it, based on Christ paying for my sins, i could have his righteousness and eternal life for FREE, ....all because like "Abraham believed God".......so, i did also."""

vs.

"""Faith saves me, and works keeps me saved, ....and God is scratching his head saying, no, actually I saved you using Jesus's blood as the redemptive propitiation that removes the punishment the LAW DEMANDS , and faith is just a word that is meaningless if you dont give all the credit to me and my Son for doing all that for you.."""

 

[Qchan]

Well, thank you, but its even more subtle then you have stated.

Try it like this..

""""God saved me, because he told me that if i would trust him to do it, based on Christ paying for my sins, i could have his righteousness and eternal life for FREE, ....all because like "Abraham believed God".......so, i did also."""

vs.

"""Faith saves me, and works keeps me saved, ....and God is scratching his head saying, no, actually I saved you using Jesus's blood as the redemptive propitiation that removes the punishment the LAW DEMANDS , and faith is just a word that is meaningless if you dont give all the credit to me and my Son for doing all that for you.."""

Kidron, I agree with you 100%. What I don't understand, and you may be in agreement here, is how something so clear and easy is not universally understood. I mean, what could be more clear than Ephesians 2:8-10? What's your take on this?

 

[Deborah13]

I don't think it's a case of faith vs works in the general sense...it's more subtle here.

I see it more as a debate between -
"Listen Kidron, I'm saved by MY Faith in christ, and I'm kept saved by MY Faith in christ"
vs
"Listen Kidron, I'm saved by CHRIST through my faith in CHRIST, and I'm kept saved by CHRIST through my faith in CHRIST"

The former has my faith as a conditional cause and basis for my salvation while the latter doesn't.

:yes That may be the way it sounds but is that what is meant?

 

[Kidron]

Kidron, I agree with you 100%. What I don't understand, and you may be in agreement here, is how something so clear and easy is not universally understood. I mean, what could be more clear than Ephesians 2:8-10? What's your take on this?

I also sometimes am perplexed by someone who looks at the Blood of Christ, the theology of Paul,.... & then just ignores this completely and runs to James to try to exchange works for Grace.
Why ....... FIGHT the Gift of pardon with works?
Why try to avoid BOOKS in the NT written by Paul to then run to a verse in Hebrews and a verse in James to try to build a false personal salvation that is not built on the Cross's finished work.....but is instead looking to self effort to attain and keep salvation if they can "endure to the end"....etc.
Now, they'll say......"no no no"", but, if you ask them if they can lose their salvation, they will say, "of course"......and this is their very anti-Grace position that tries to delete Eph 2:8-10 right out of the bible..
So, how to explain that someone who claims to be a "believer".... will then tell you all their reasons they can think of to try to prove that the Blood of JESUS is not enough to keep them saved and it needs THEIR WORKS....< to complete their salvation
You can take them to 1st John 5, and show them that if they have Jesus then they already have eternal life, and they can KNOW IT, according to John, as he explains that Jesus IS Eternal life, so if you have him......and all believers do have him, inside..........and yet they will run right to Hebrews or James and use their 2 memorized verses to try to deny what John just told them they ALREADY HAVE FOR ETERNITY.
Amazing, but not in a good way.

Listen, you and i know we cant save ourselves, while others pretend they are exercising Faith through works, when in reality they are trying to save themselves by works because they dont really BELIEVE that FAITH ALONE is the Key.
So, is the root of it, self righteousness, or is it just that they cant accept a free gift.?
Perhaps what happened to them is that they were led to James and Hebrews and Matthew way too early in their baby Christian stage by other legalists, and so how could they have realized at that early state of their Christianity that they needed to be knee deep in Romans, Galatians, Colossians, Philippians, to establish themselves in "GRACE", before they became entangled with the..."if we sin willfully" and "faith without works" mindset lock down that has them theologically strangled and gagging on self effort and the fear of hell.
One thing you'll notice, is that these self-saving types will always run to a book written to the "Hebrews", or passages that talk about confessing sins or dead faith, to try to prove why they cant just enjoy eternal life and what the Blood of Jesus has accomplished FOR THEM, so that they dont have to worry about keeping their salvation by stressing out over works.

So, to answer you simply
You and I and others who understand Grace as a GIFT, realize that all credit for it is do the one who allowed us to have it, and so, we dont play with Salvation or de-esteem it by trying to pretend that we have to earn what was given for free, yet cost Jesus everything to provide.

 

[Deborah13]

Now, they'll say......"no no no"", but, if you ask them if they can lose their salvation, they will say, "of course"..

It's not a matter of losing anything, it's a matter of rejecting Christ's blood shed for the believer.
What makes a believer now any different from the ones being warned in Hebrews 10:26-29?

 

[Kidron]

It's not a matter of losing anything, it's a matter of rejecting Christ's blood shed for the believer.
What makes a believer now any different from the ones being warned in Hebrews 10:26-29?

If you were a Hebrew, and had the experience of personally watching Jesus die, knew all the Apostles, had seen the miraculous, had tasted the very presence of God, had heard the Gospel, and you as a Hebrew are standing there.... STILL resisting the Holy Spirit who was convicting you as you were tasting this heavenly experience......If that was you, and Paul said......"you are sinning willfully to REJECT what you KNOW IS TRUE, and in doing so, you are nailing the Holy ONE back up with your unbelief and if you dont TURN, ............
so, if that is you, then yes, you are in a mess that has no remedy, as you cant pardon unbelief if it will not take the pardon, and those Hebrews were not going to take it.
And they were warned.
Same thing applies to anyone that hears the Gospel all their lives and never allows by faith God to apply the redemption.

 

[Deborah13]

If you were a Hebrew, and had the experience of personally watching Jesus die, knew all the Apostles, had seen the miraculous, had tasted the very presence of God, had heard the Gospel, and you as a Hebrew are standing there.... STILL resisting the Holy Spirit who was convicting you as you were tasting this heavenly experience......If that was you, and Paul said......"you are sinning willfully to REJECT what you KNOW IS TRUE, and in doing so, you are nailing the Holy ONE back up with your unbelief and if you dont TURN, ............
so, if that is you, then yes, you are in a mess that has no remedy, as you cant pardon unbelief if it will not take the pardon, and those Hebrews were not going to take it.
And they were warned.
Same thing applies to anyone that hears the Gospel all their lives and never allows by faith God to apply the redemption.

Jesus had been resurrected at 30 yrs before this verse was written so many of them may have not ever seen Jesus.
Would you say that those in Hebrews 10 had been saved, seeing the scripture says they had been sanctified by His blood?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Precisely. If faith is made out to be a condition to be fulfilled by man alone...

Whoa, whoa, stop right there.
No such suggestion is being made.

Faith is God's gracious gift of power given to us so that we can believe and trust in that which we can't see. Man has no capacity whatsoever to believe the gospel apart from this gracious enabling.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Maybe im not understanding you.
So, i'll ask you a question, and you can clarify, if you would...

Now, when i hear you describe yourself, this is how i hear you..

"""Listen Kidron, im saved by faith, but im kept saved by works.
If i dont do what James said, and work and work and work..... then i have dead faith, and that means im lost""""


So, is that you?

Yes, you are misunderstanding me.
I'll explain later.
Going to the Y.