Self Righteousness

[Kidron]

The Rich Man and Lazarus is a highly misunderstood parable. It has nothing to do with hell.
Go here and I encourage you to read the whole thing:
http://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/book/e/71/t/the-rich-man-and-lazarus.aspx


Oddly enough, ive never mentioned Lazarus, so, there is no need for me to look.


You are still assuming that God cannot persuade them to follow him without violating their free will. If God is all powerful and nothing is impossible for him to do, then surely God can persuade anyone he wants without violating their free will.


What he can do, vs, what he does, is how it is.
And yes, its impossible for him to Lie, or to break his word.



I disagree. Christ died to save the world. No where does it say that Christ died to save just the believers. John 3:16 says it all. God so loved "The World" not "Just The Believers". The world includes believers and unbelievers alike. God is a fair God. Would it be fair for someone who killed one person to have the same penalty as a person who killed 6 million people? There's nothing fair about that. Should a person who has done nothing but good in his life receive the same punishment as an evil Canaanite simply because they did not know Jesus? Of course not.

People dont go to hell because they are bad or good.
They go as a result of the consequence of Rejecting Christ, just like i said.
But do they deserve to be punished for a lifetime of sinning, ?
Absolutely.
See, freedom has a price to pay, and the price to pay is consequence.


Hell doesn't exist. What does exist is the judgement and the Lake of Fire. Hell isn't in the original Hebrew nor is it in the original Greek. The concept of hell is of Satan, designed to keep people away from Christianity, and it's doing a fantastic job considering how Islam is now the fastest growing religion over Christianity.

Well, first of all there is no such thing as the "original Greek".
There are copies of copies and pieces of earlier copies, but nothing "original".
And, i dont view Christianity as a "religion", i view it as a restoration between fallen humanity and Holy God.
And if you believe that hell is not real, then that is your option, and is your opinion based on research that to you proves what you think is true.
People on this forum, believe all sorts of things .


The judgement and the Lake of Fire correspond to one another. The Lake of Fire is God's purifying fire designed to change the person's heart.


Sorry but that concept has nothing to do with what happens to a person after they die.
There is no 2nd chance to take Christ after you die.
The Gospel is ither believed and received here, whereby you can die pardoned and you meet God as Father, or a person can reject the Gospel here and die and meet God as Judge.
You get to choose, and God honors your choice for as long as he lives.

 

[Brother Mike]

The Rich Man and Lazarus is a highly misunderstood parable. It has nothing to do with hell.
Go here and I encourage you to read the whole thing:

Well, the problem with this idea is that we accept it as a parable, because we don't understand integrity. Many believers lack integrity and hence, think it's a parable.

however, Jesus quoted Abraham as saying something. That would mean Abraham actually said it, or Jesus is lying and misrepresenting God's man. Lacking integrity and not knowing what it looks like, would make someone thing Jesus made this story up to prove a point, when in fact, it actually happened, and Abraham said what he said.

 

[Deborah13]

Well, the problem with this idea is that we accept it as a parable, because we don't understand integrity. Many believers lack integrity and hence, think it's a parable.

however, Jesus quoted Abraham as saying something. That would mean Abraham actually said it, or Jesus is lying and misrepresenting God's man. Lacking integrity and not knowing what it looks like, would make someone thing Jesus made this story up to prove a point, when in fact, it actually happened, and Abraham said what he said.

I agree with you. I don't remember Jesus ever naming real people in a parable. It's odd to me to think that He did just this one time.

 

[Kidron]

Self Righteousness plays out this way, also.

Take a partial Hebrew's verse like this...

'If we sin willingly"

Then twist it to say this..

"how do i lose my salvation....well, i sin willingly".

So, in effect you are saying....."i will save myself by not ever sinning willingly because the Blood of Christ is not enough to keep me saved".

Thus, you have Faith in your works, and that is not what saves you.

 

[Kidron]

God is good all the time

 

[Deborah13]

Self Righteousness plays out this way, also.

Take a partial Hebrew's verse like this...

'If we sin willingly"

Then twist it to say this..

"how do i lose my salvation....well, i sin willingly".

So, in effect you are saying....."i will save myself by not ever sinning willingly because the Blood of Christ is not enough to keep me saved".

So I giving you another chance not to add to what I say or ask.
What is the definition of willfully sinning?

 

[Kidron]

So I giving you another chance not to add to what I say or ask.
What is the definition of willfully sinning?

Any sin you commit that you are aware of.
Like speeding in your car, or not wearing your seat belt, or smoking in an Elevator, or cheating on your taxes.
Or renting an "R" rated movie that says it has "nudity and profanity" in it, when you read the rating.
There are thousands of these type willful sins that Pastors and Priests and Christians do 24/7.

Now, if you are referring to the Hebrews verse that says, "if we sin willfully".
thats different.
That is an Apostle telling Hebrews that if you sin a certain sin, you are going to burn like toast.
And that sin is the sin of rejecting Christ., as this is the only "willful sin" that will cause damnation.

 

[Deborah13]

Any sin you commit that you are aware of.
Like speeding in your car, or not wearing your seat belt, or smoking in an Elevator, or cheating on your taxes.
Or renting an "R" rated movie that says it has "nudity and profanity" in it, when you read the rating.
There are thousands of these type willful sins that Pastors and Priests and Christians do 24/7.

NO, none of these are "willful sin".

Now, if you are referring to the Hebrews verse that says, "if we sin willfully".
thats different.
That is an Apostle telling Hebrews that if you sin a certain sin, you are going to burn like toast.
And that sin is the sin of rejecting Christ., as this is the only "willful sin" that will cause damnation.

No it is not "the only willful sin that will cause....."
It IS the only willful sin period. No other sin IS a willful sin.
Did you read the definition? Did you understand the definition?

 

[Brother Mike]

I agree with you. I don't remember Jesus ever naming real people in a parable. It's odd to me to think that He did just this one time.

ya, well, if Jesus quoted someone, then.............................. besides, it does not match any other parable and we are told to compare line upon line, here a little, there a little. Precept (like things) upon precept. Jesus gave an exact place, names, and quoted Father Abraham.

Any sin you commit that you are aware of.
Like speeding in your car, or not wearing your seat belt, or smoking in an Elevator, or cheating on your taxes.
Or renting an "R" rated movie that says it has "nudity and profanity" in it, when you read the rating.
There are thousands of these type willful sins that Pastors and Priests and Christians do 24/7.

Now, if you are referring to the Hebrews verse that says, "if we sin willfully".
thats different.
That is an Apostle telling Hebrews that if you sin a certain sin, you are going to burn like toast.
And that sin is the sin of rejecting Christ., as this is the only "willful sin" that will cause damnation.

Well, there ya go. that is the sin. You have actually impressed me, which is hard to do.

Not sure if "R" rated movies are bad. In Final Destination you see a great example of how the world thinks of predestination and once your card is punched, it's over. You also see how the World deals with spiritual things, like consulting a Medium. The director did an awesome job, even if he knows it or not.

 

[Kidron]

NO, none of these are "willful sin".

No it is not "the only willful sin that will cause....."
It IS the only willful sin period. No other sin IS a willful sin.
Did you read the definition? Did you understand the definition?

I gave you the definition.

Any time you knowingly sin.....that is.... you plan to sin, knowing its a sin...... then you go and do it, then > you have sinned willfully.
All those sins are covered by the Blood of the atonement because your sins are not imputed to you anymore after you are born again according to Romans 4:8, because they have all been paid for by the Death of Jesus once and for all.
The one willful sin that you knowingly do that isn't covered, is the sin of rejecting Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No he does not.
He does not say they have "faith", JB.
Read it.
He says this...
12 We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.
He is telling them to copy., what someone else has..

Ah yes, the err of not rightly dividing the Word of God.

How did you miss it? I showed you the author himself says he is convinced they are saved, and that God won't forget their work and love, the evidence of that salvation.

9 But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though * we are speaking in this way. 10 For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints. 11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises. (Hebrews 6:9-12 NASB)

But you insist they are not saved?

So, when Paul is preaching to them about "willfully sinning", he is simply telling them that to hear the Gospel and to willfully reject it.... IS to re-crucify Christ.

The passage says REnew them to repentance.
I'm no genius, but I'm pretty sure you have to have repented once before you can be REnewed to repentance.
The rejection of the gospel that he is warning about is doing that after already coming to repentance.

Thats the POV, here, and not anything about losing salvation or saved Hebrews.

The author is convinced they are saved. The author warns them as sanctified believers. And he warns them about the impossibility of repenting a second time. Yet your doctrine says these Hebrews are not saved, and are being warned to not reject the gospel the first time around, even though the passage says they can't be 'renewed ' to repentance. And so we get taken on another OSAS ride where what we read does not really mean what it so plainly says. Oy vey.

 

[Kidron]

Well, there ya go. that is the sin. You have actually impressed me, which is hard to do.
Not sure if R rated movies are bad.

Well, its not the movie, its the nudity or the sexual activity or the layering of graphic violence for no reason..
Thats the issue with most R rated movies.
I typically choose movies based on who directed them or who is in the cast, and i just hope for the best.

 

[Kidron]

The passage says REnew them to repentance.
I'm no genius, but I'm pretty sure you have to have repented once before you can be REnewed to repentance.
The rejection of the gospel that he is warning about is doing that after already coming to repentance.


The author is convinced they are saved. The author warns them as sanctified believers. And he warns them about the impossibility of repenting a second time.

No, he is saying...

"right now you are CONVICTED and this is the "repentance" they are feeling.
And he is saying.......its difficult to get this a 2nd time., so, dont turn away.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No, he is saying...

"right now you are CONVICTED and this is the "repentance" they are feeling.
And he is saying.......its difficult to get this a 2nd time., so, dont turn away.

When they turn to Christ, that is when they have repented. Repentance is not simply realizing the gospel is true. To repent is to accept and receive the gospel.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

When they turn to Christ, that is when they have repented. Repentance is not simply realizing the gospel is true. To repent is to accept and receive the gospel.

That is not exactly right.
To turn and look at Christ as the Savior, consider him, and then decide.
That is the issue here.
Jesus said, "repent, for the Kingdom of God is near".
Jesus is telling them to look towards God and realize it is time to make a decision.
But the decision still has to be made.

 

[Brother Mike]

The passage says REnew them to repentance.
I'm no genius, but I'm pretty sure you have to have repented once before you can be REnewed to repentance.
The rejection of the gospel that he is warning about is doing that after already coming to repentance.

That would be Hebrews 6
Not Hebrews 10.
You replied to Hebrews 10, but gave Hebrews 6.

Well, its not the movie, its the nudity or the sexual activity or the layering of graphic violence for no reason..
Thats the issue with most R rated movies.

Nudity in Final Destination? have to watch it again to be sure.

 

[Deborah13]

Any time you knowingly sin.....that is.... you plan to sin, knowing its a sin...... then you go and do it, then > you have sinned willfully.

No, what you think willful sin is, is your English definition of deliberately committing a sin.
That is not the Greek definition of "willfully sinning." post # 33
Example; You would say King David willfully sinned when he committed adultery and murder. I say by definition, he did not.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

No, what you think willful sin is, is your English definition of deliberately committing a sin.
That is not the Greek definition of "willfully sinning." post # 33
Example; You would say King David willfully sinned when he committed adultery and murder. I say by definition, he did not.

What you are saying is that we are not responsible for what we do.
I disagree.

 

[Deborah13]

What you are saying is that we are not responsible for what we do.
I disagree.

No, that is not what I am saying at all. When we sin we are responsible and there may be serious consequences. King David and Bathsheba's son died. God sent Nathan to wake David up. David suffered greatly and repented. David still had the Holy Spirit.

He didn't sin because he hated God or God's laws. David never rejected God his Redeemer.

 

[Brother Mike]

What you are saying is that we are not responsible for what we do.
I disagree.

Sin willfully was to trample the blood covenant by which you were sanctified and count it a unholy thing, despite the Spirit of Grace. To know the truth of the Anointing, power, the World to come, and turn you back on God to be done with him.

David was not guilty of this. In fact I don't think David fully got it until Nathan told him a similar story and David said that is not right.

When teaching bible, we ought to only stick with Bible terms and concepts.